Norton and Shapton 4000 and 8000 Stones

[Frank Shaves]

I need to buy 4k and 8k stones to extend my progression. It sounds like a Norton 4000/8000 combination stone will get the job done, but that people are way more excited/passionate about their Shapton 4000 and 8000 (GlassStone) stones. Did I get that right?

And can anyone comment about the difference between the Shapton HR and HC (high carbon?) stones on carbon steel razors based on experience. SHAPTON Co., Ltd. | SHARPEN YOUR LIFE - https://shapton.co.jp/en/faq/ says:

Q. The GlassStone series includes two types each of the 4000, 6000 and 8000 sharpening stones. What are the differences between them?
A. They use different abrasive agents. GlassStone [HC] series 50603, 50703 and 50803 are recommended for sharpening composite steel blades, where steel has been forge welded with another metal.

 

[KrstGor]

Both are excellent and you as a newbie won't see any difference, anyway.

Get a combo Norton stone instead of 2 stones and save some money. Watch Dr. Matt's YT channel for how to best use both Norton and Sharpton 4K, 8K.

Unless you plan to hone razors on an industrial scale, any of potential differences, nuances between the two are a non-issue.

 

[Frank Shaves]

I get the bit about buying the Norton will save money and when I look at the cost of collecting different synthetic and natural stones, cost is a real issue - at least for me. But what I am trying to understand is why people pay the extra $100 for the Shaptons. Or is this like Yo-Yo Ma playing a "student" cello - on which he will still sound great?

 

[global_dev]

Couple things (caveat i dont own either)

Resistance to dishing
Speed
Soaking
Glass have a glass backing
iirc norton and shapton grit ratings are not the same (someone please correct me if wrong)
Not all of us are as sensitive to price
Dont want combo stones.

 

[Frank Shaves]

Now that my honing infection has spread, I was thinking about buying a $30 King 1000/6000 grit water stone for my kitchen knives (that are in need of a little lovin'). What about the idea of me using the King stone for learning to bevel on my practice razors before turning the King lose on my kitchen knives and buying 1k, 4k and 8k stones for my razors?

 

[bluesman 7]

What about the idea of me using the King stone for learning to bevel on my practice razors

Yeah, that'll work. I'm personally not a fan of combo stones, but for the price it doesn't matter much.

 

[lightfoot]

Now that my honing infection has spread, I was thinking about buying a $30 King 1000/6000 grit water stone for my kitchen knives (that are in need of a little lovin'). What about the idea of me using the King stone for learning to bevel on my practice razors before turning the King lose on my kitchen knives and buying 1k, 4k and 8k stones for my razors?

I cannot recommend the King 1000/6000 for razors. The 6k seems to leave the edge a bit thoothy & generally not ready for finishing. Believe it or not the King 800/4000 combo has been a bit better for me at least. But in the world of combination hones I think the Naniwa 1000/5000 combo from CKTG may be the best one out there for my approach to the art...

 

[Steve56]

I use both the Shapton HR and HC.

The Shapton High Rockwell (HR) were designed to cut the semi-stainless wear resistant Lie Nielsen A2 plane steel. They’re very fast as a result, and they will cut hard wear-resistant steels in modern kitchen knives like SLD, ZDP, R2 etc. I use them as my main progression in 500, 1k, 2k, and 4k grits. They feel hard (though they aren’t that hard) and have a little gritty feel while honing.

The Shapton High Carbon (HC) was designed for high carbon knives, razors, tools, just as you cited. They are not as fast, feel smoother and harder than the HR, but I’m not sure that the hardness is much different. They polish a lot more at a given grit than the HR. The 6k HC shaves about like most other 8k stones.

Shapton Glass stones are designed to go in 3x steps. My current basic progression is only 2 stones before a natural jnat finisher, a Shapton Glass HR 2k which is my normal bevel setter because of it’s speed, it’s faster and finer than most other 1k stones. Then the Shapton Glass HC 6k. Then whatever jnat finisher that I want. The 500 and 1k are for ‘fixer uppers’.

I also use the Shapton Glass HR 4k a good bit for light bevel work on full hollows when I don’t need the bevel setter, but it is not really necessary, just nice to have.

The Glass stones also leave a very uniform scratch pattern with very few coarser scratches, unlike the Pros. That’s a nice feature to have, even though the coarser scratches never made any noticeable effect on the razor edges that I could tell.

Hope this helps.

 

[Frank Shaves]

That was really helpful, @Steve56.

I decided to hold the line and ordered the King combo for use while I gain experience.


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[Gamma]

In practical application, the HC and HR stones function nearly identically. I've had both 4ks, both 8ks, and the 6k HC. Still have the 4k HC, 6k HC, got rid of the 8k HR/HC stones because I wasn't using them. Otherwise, I would have kept the HC 8k.
HC/HR binders seem to be different. Not convinced the abrasive is any different except maybe in density. Across all honing/sharpening needs, differences are more of a nuance than a very tangible thing. For me it's mostly about the feel on the stone, not the finished product. After spending time going back/forth - I preferred the feel of the HC stones.

Not a fan of King stones. Might choose them before the Nortons though.

Norton 4k is a dog in my opinion; soft, dishes if you look at it sideways, has to soak forever, takes forever to dry out, it is slow as heck and shy of 4k by a good margin.
Norton 8k, being a 3µm stone, is plausible as a 5k but there are better options. If someone put a gun to my head to force me to use the Nortons, I'd get separate stones. Gluing the 4k to the 8k is, IMO, the dumbest thing ever. The 4k is a sponge, the 8k is splash/go for the most part. The stones 'work' but there are better options available.

Shapton Pro does not have a 4k, just a 5k. Good stone. The Pro 8k is not top-dog in the world of 8k stones but it's better than the Norton and many others too. Since I don't finish on an 8k it's good enough for when/if I need one. I rarely go above 4k/5k though.

 

[Frank Shaves]

@Gamma, Yeah, I just could not get excited about the Norton. If I do buy separate 4k and 8k stones, I want to buy something gets me juiced. And it sounds like people really like the Shapton 4k and 8k stones.

But first, I need to spend some time setting bevels with my new King combo which just arrived. The King looks well made. There is some kind of synthetic barrier between the two stones. My plan is to only soak the 1000 grit side for 2 minutes in water that only rises to about half the height of the 1000 grit side.

 

[Chandu]

HC/HR binders seem to be different. Not convinced the abrasive is any different except maybe in density.

One of them, I can't recall which is tailored more to carbon steels. No direct experience though.

 

[Frank Shaves]

Just putting this out there. I was watching a video by MTC Kitchen in which the person says that the HR is more versatile than the HC, so if you want to hone both carbon steel and stainless steel razors, the HR may make more sense than the HC.

 

[Proinsias]

I really enjoyed working with the King 1K side on razors & knives. It's a good & forgiving stone with nice feedback and was fun to use. It needs frequent lapping but lapping is quick & easy. Suspect you may need more than a 2 min soak as it's a very thirsty stone....though you are correct to be cautious, I cracked my 6k side before I was aware.

What about the idea of me using the King stone for learning to bevel on my practice razors before turning the King lose on my kitchen knives and buying 1k, 4k and 8k stones for my razors?

I started out with a King combo & some cheap naturals for a few years, when I did eventually upgrade to the Shapton Pro 1.5k & 5k I sold the King combo. The Shaptons have two usable faces, are knife friendly and are not gonna wear out anytime soon, makes the King somewhat redundant.

 

[Frank Shaves]

For the record, I ordered a Shapton HR 8k this afternoon. Can't wait to take it for a drive! Now I need to buy a Friodur Inox too .

 

[towliff]

I bought some shapton seven stones a few months ago. I really regret not purchasing them several years ago! They make honing sooo easy (I was using a coticule as a 1 stone bevel to finish previously). Plus they are relatively cheap as they are smaller than the regular glass stones - but I find them perfect size for razor.

My very first stones were the Norton combos and I could not get a shave worthy edge - had to use pastes. Was probably a technique thing. However, that said, the soaking of them is a ball ache and the particle sizes do not match up with the particle sizes you’d expect, so the 8k is not as fine as you think (different standards for grit rating).

I’m deffo not a honing expert, nor do I hone for others, but if someone were completely new to honing, I’d recommend the shapton 7 stones 100% because they are EASY, well sized, and relatively cheap for what you are getting.