Norton 4k advice/replacement

[Kyle89]

So a bit over a year ago I bought the (seemingly out of fashion) Norton 4/8k because I had a few Rolls Razor blades I wanted to restore and see if I could get it shave ready. I wasn't sure if this was something I wanted to stick with though so opted for the wallet friendly stone. I also picked up a Naniwa 12k at the time after getting edges on my Rolls blades and having fun with the process. Since then I've gotten into straight razors and I put my own edges on them.

Current progression- Chosera 1k- Norton combo- Naniwa 12k- Coticule

I've been very happy with the stone until recently. My last few honing sessions I've noticed that the 4k side has been killing my edges, and I didn't have that problem in the past. I do lap it often and round off the sides with my Atoma 400 and check for flatness with a straight edge. The stone feels a lot grittier than normal perhaps 10-20 laps after lapping and under my little 60x-120x it really does a number on the edge. I've put in quite a few hours with the stone and I feel like I know it quite well, so this grittiness has been a bit peculiar and perplexing. I'm pretty OCD about grit cross-contamination and I do understand that this could be causing the issue, but I try to be very careful about that. I soak the stone adequately and I keep my Atoma 400 clean. It could very well be a technique issue and I fully understand that, but I'm starting to think that I've hit a weird layer in the stone or perhaps it's starting to have issues with the binding or whatever you call it.

The other day I tested a progression where I go straight from the Chosera 1k to the 8k side and was able to get an edge I was satisfied with (after finishing it further of course) and it did not seem to take THAT much extra time, but I would like to avoid having to do that. I just got so fed up with the 4k I just skipped it all together haha.

Honing is something I want to keep doing and I'm having a lot of fun learning and experimenting, so I can justify upgrading from the Norton 4k side and would like suggestions on how to go about it. I was thinking about perhaps a Shapton 3k? Maybe one of the glass stones? I'm aware of the difference in grit rating and would like input from someone with a lot more experience than my novice self has. I've put in some research but I would like to hear it from you.

Also, I'd like to keep using the Norton 8k because I like how it feels, but I know that in terms of the Japanese grit rating it's closer to ~5k? Correct me if I'm wrong. Lately I've been going from the 8k side to my Naniwa 12k, and then taming it a bit with my Coticule. I do feel like I can "skip" having a proper 8k between the 12k because I have no current complaints with my edges, but if anybody has any food for thought for me regarding getting a proper 8k stone such as the Shapton to add to my progression please let me know.

I am working on getting better at utilizing my Coti with slurry dilutions, but I'd like to stick with synths for now and using it as a finisher.


Thank you! If you need any clarification about my writeup please let me know as I'm feeling pretty burned out.

-Kyle

 

[bluesman 7]

I like the Naniwa Pro/Chosera 3k

 

[Acmemfg]

The Naniwa SS 1k, 3k, 5k, 8k, 12k progression has proven (to me) to be the best and easiest media with which to produce a consistently good edge.

 

[ables]

Chosera 1k to the norton 8k to SS12k should be just fine. I have the norton combo also and dislike the 4k side for its soft gravel feeling, but love the 8k side. My norton 8k side is just a bit finer than my shapton kuromaku 5k. And my shapton 2k is finer than the norton 4k if that helps you out any.

If you are experienced with your coticule, depending on the stone, you could even use it with slurry after the chosera 1k.

 

[JPO]

I have the Naniwa Pro/Chosera 3k and the Shapton gs 3k HR. I have not tried the 4k shapton because they do not recommend it for razors. It will probably work just fine since your are doing allot of work after this. Both of these 3k stones are grate in my opinion. They are probably just as fine, if not finer then the Norton 4k. I have not found a 4k i like yet. I have the Naniwa Hayabusa 4k, but this is on the softer side. It never really gave me anything the aforementioned stones could not offer.
If you like a coticule edge you can get really good result just by going from a 3k to the coticule with just a light slurry.
I never really liked the super stones, but allot of people seem to like them.

 

[Kyle89]

The Naniwa SS 1k, 3k, 5k, 8k, 12k progression has proven (to me) to be the best and easiest media with which to produce a consistently good edge.

Yeah I've heard good things about that progression. If I weren't back in school and had my old amount of disposable income I'd totally pick up a set like that. For now though I'd like to just perhaps add in another stone that fits in okay with the rest of my progression. One of these days though.... one of these days..

I like the Naniwa Pro/Chosera 3k

I freaking love my Chosera 1k. Sometimes when I'm practicing on my Gold Dollar beater I'll go back to it just to get to use it haha. Does the "feel" vary from grit size? Assuming you've tried a few different ones.

Chosera 1k to the norton 8k to SS12k should be just fine. I have the norton combo also and dislike the 4k side for its soft gravel feeling, but love the 8k side. My norton 8k side is just a bit finer than my shapton kuromaku 5k. And my shapton 2k is finer than the norton 4k if that helps you out any.

If you are experienced with your coticule, depending on the stone, you could even use it with slurry after the chosera 1k.

I was royally surprised with the edge I got out of just using the 1k-8k-12-coti. And yeah I agree about the feel of the 4k side, as I never really liked it either, but it used to be more managable. Something must just be up with it. Mine isn't the poopy made in Mexico one, as it's the made in Italy one. I hear it's an improvement over the Mexican made one but still not as good as they used to be. Thanks for your input on how your Shapton stones feel.

Still not experienced enough with the Coti but I'm getting better with it. Once in a while I'll play around with slurries but haven't been able to get anything decent consistently just yet. Still learning it.

I have the Naniwa Pro/Chosera 3k and the Shapton gs 3k HR. I have not tried the 4k shapton because they do not recommend it for razors. It will probably work just fine since your are doing allot of work after this. Both of these 3k stones are grate in my opinion. They are probably just as fine, if not finer then the Norton 4k. I have not found a 4k i like yet. I have the Naniwa Hayabusa 4k, but this is on the softer side. It never really gave me anything the aforementioned stones could not offer.
If you like a coticule edge you can get really good result just by going from a 3k to the coticule with just a light slurry.
I never really liked the super stones, but allot of people seem to like them.

I figured I'd be hearing about the Chosera and the Shapton stones- your input is very much appreciated. It will probably be a battle between those two if I choose to add in a 3k.

 

[Christian1212]

1 thing I would suggest trying out is going 1k 8k coticule then naniwa 12k. With your gear though sounds like you are just fine.

 

[Kyle89]

1 thing I would suggest trying out is going 1k 8k coticule then naniwa 12k. With your gear though sounds like you are just fine.

Yeah I'm feeling like what I have is fine but knowing me I'll probably end up with a 3k down the road because I'm a sucker for this stuff lol.

I tried going from the 8k right to the coti a few different ways. I first tried it with some light slurry and then finished like I usually do and the resulting edge was okay. Once I keep using it and learning it more I'll probably be able to get away with taking out the 12k down the line, but I'm not quite there yet. I've been still using the 12k as a bit of a crutch. The bulk of my SR shaves have been straight off the Nani 12k and I do like the edge, but a little bit of time on the Coti afterwards seems to tame it just enough as to where I very much prefer it. I have not gone Coti to the 12k as I figure it's just going to be the 12k edge. Totally fuel for more experimentation though haha.

 

[Christian1212]

I think having the 3k would be an awesome idea. Could use it to sharpen your knives as well!

 

[bluesman 7]

The 3k Chosera has a creamy feel while still cutting well. Not the cheapest 3k, but I'd buy one again in a second. Mine checked and then healed itself.

 

[JPO]

Burrfection.com sells thinner versions of these stones as a set of 800 and 3000 for the same price as the full size 3k stone.

Naniwa “Burrfection Edition” Professional #800/3000 Combo Stone Set

Ever since before the creation of his Burrfection channel, Ryky was a huge fan of the Naniwa Pro whetstones. At the beginning of 2016, he bought 2 dozen sharpening and polishing whetstones to test, and throughout the next 4 years of testing whetstones, there is a shortlist of whetstones by which...

store.burrfection.com

He also has a set i bough which is a mini version of the 800/3000 Naniwa pro. For razors this is a really handy size.
A 1000/3000 set would have been a really option.

Naniwa “Ryky Edition” Professional #800/3000 Combo Mini Stone Set

This is a mini set. For regular sized set, please click here. Ryky regularly gets product recommendation requests from EDC (Every Day Carry) and pocket knife owners. They want something compact, relative to normal-sized whetstones, but offer the same sharpening and polishing experience as one...

store.burrfection.com

 

[bluesman 7]

I'm pretty sure that those have been sold out for quite a while.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

So, what do you mean “Killing my edges”, is this happening with all your razors? Which razors?

You should not need to go to a full progression to touch up an edge. 8k should be plenty. I doubt there is anything wrong with the stone, the goal of the midrange stone 3-6k is to remove the 1k stria and make it easier for the 8k to polish to an even finish and straighten the edge.

Try honing with a squirt bottle of water and flood the stone, do not use slurry on the 4K.Forget the Coticule until you master the 12k. A 12k edge with a pasted Chrome Oxide should be a smoking edge.

As said, you can easily go from a 1k to 8k and finish on the 12.

Post some photos of the razors in question, it’s not the stone.

 

[Kyle89]

So, what do you mean “Killing my edges”, is this happening with all your razors? Which razors?

You should not need to go to a full progression to touch up an edge. 8k should be plenty. I doubt there is anything wrong with the stone, the goal of the midrange stone 3-6k is to remove the 1k stria and make it easier for the 8k to polish to an even finish and straighten the edge.

Try honing with a squirt bottle of water and flood the stone, do not use slurry on the 4K.Forget the Coticule until you master the 12k. A 12k edge with a pasted Chrome Oxide should be a smoking edge.

As said, you can easily go from a 1k to 8k and finish on the 12.

Post some photos of the razors in question, it’s not the stone.

Thanks for the reply.

Most of the time when I refresh my edges I go straight to the finisher, or perhaps back to the 8k sometimes. I'm far enough along in this honing journey to know the differences in refreshes versus going back to the 1k for bevel setting. Once in a while though for the sake of practice I'll go back through a whole progression, mostly with my Gold Dollar for the practice, but I've done this with my Ralf Aust and my T.I. as well. I used to finish with Chromox after the 12k but I've phased that out as I can get a good edge off of the 12k without the paste, and I find the pasted edges don't last as long for me and are a little on the harsh side. I wouldn't say I've mastered the 12k per se but I've been shaving great off of my edges for a bit at this point. My end results give me a great shave without irritation, especially after some taming with my Coticule.

This is both happened with my Aust and my GD so far. Haven't worked my T.I. back in the progression in quite a while.

This is more about this increased gritty feeling my 4k has been giving me. When I mean the 4k is killing my edges, I'll go into the 4k with a good bevel set which shaves arm hair very smooth and easily (I've done test shaves off of that stone), and once I start doing a little bit of work on the 4k I start to lose that ability and it feels like it takes a step back. I have one of those Carson 60x-120x thingermabobbers (LOVE IT!!) and the edge looks chipped and nasty afterwards. The stone is well lapped and taken care of and soaked adequately. After the 1k it looks a lot better. As mentioned- I'm starting to think the binding on the 4k side of my stone is starting to go bad or I hit a weird layer on the stone because the 4k side has never done this to any of my razors in the past after putting quite a few hours into using the stone with a bunch of different Rolls Razor blades and 3 different straights. Hence why I'd like to replace that particular side of the stone in my progression. I wish I had a USB scope so I can post photos of my edge from 1k versus the 4k- 1k looks great, the 4k makes the edge look chippy, burrs, and gives off deeper scratches.

I never slurry the 4k. I actually rinse it off quite often and keep it wet when using it.

 

[bluesman 7]

I've heard of people lapping 1/8" off of Norton 4k stones to get past the gritty feel.

 

[Kyle89]

I've heard of people lapping 1/8" off of Norton 4k stones to get past the gritty feel.

Haha oh man mine lost probably more of that in size from lapping/use at this point. It certainly looks a bit thinner than the 8k side that’s for sure.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

You are probably way over thinking the process. Again, the goal of the 3-6k mid grit stone is to remove the deep 1k stria. Your edge will not get straight until after 8k.

The issue with the Norton stones was years ago, pretty sure, if it was an issue, it was resolved long ago. I guarantee, that if you do buy a different mid grit stone, a year from now, the Norton 4k and it will have magically fixed itself.

How a stone “feels” does not equate to its performance, especially if you are new to honing razors. If the 4k is removing 1k stria and leaving a uniform stria pattern on the bevel to the edge, it is working. Arm Hair Test are very subjective, stropping alone can dramatically alter results, as can light finish laps.

The problem with magnification is, you must understand what it is you see.

When you feel the 4k is killing your 1k edge, what happens when you polish on the 8k? If the 8k is good, it is a non-issue.

Post photos of your razors, the issue may be the razors’ and not the stone at all. Clear cell phone pics are good enough.

 

[Kyle89]

You are probably way over thinking the process. Again, the goal of the 3-6k mid grit stone is to remove the deep 1k stria. Your edge will not get straight until after 8k.

The issue with the Norton stones was years ago, pretty sure, if it was an issue, it was resolved long ago. I guarantee, that if you do buy a different mid grit stone, a year from now, the Norton 4k and it will have magically fixed itself.

How a stone “feels” does not equate to its performance, especially if you are new to honing razors. If the 4k is removing 1k stria and leaving a uniform stria pattern on the bevel to the edge, it is working. Arm Hair Test are very subjective, stropping alone can dramatically alter results, as can light finish laps.

The problem with magnification is, you must understand what it is you see.

When you feel the 4k is killing your 1k edge, what happens when you polish on the 8k? If the 8k is good, it is a non-issue.

Post photos of your razors, the issue may be the razors’ and not the stone at all. Clear cell phone pics are good enough.

As mentioned before, the stria looks deeper than the 1k edge and I know for a fact that this was not a problem in the past. Taking the side of the stone out of the equation gave a great shave result. Leaving it in left a lot to be desired. This has not always been the case.

The stone feels different than it used to. I’m also having problems with the results since this change in feel has occurred. Hence why I would like to get advice on a replacement.

Whether or not it’s me or the stone doesn’t change the fact that I’m not liking the stone as much as I used to and I’m at the point where I feel like I can justify a replacement for that section of my progression. For the sake of experimentation and improvement I’d like a different stone. I rely on shave testing and not magnification to see where I’m at going through a progression, although I note those objective observations throughout the process.

 

[bluesman 7]

I’m not liking the stone as much as I used to

Really the only thing that matters.

 

[Kyle89]

Lol apologies if it feels like I’m trying to defend myself here, I reread what I typed and it sort of feels like I’m coming off that way. I realize i haven’t been honing for a long time but it’s something I’ve put quite a bit of time into and have had good results after quite a bit of trial and error. I do understand and acknowledge that it is probably me and not the stone, but I’m certainly beyond someone who’s just starting to hit the stones. If I upgrade from the Norton 4k to something else and it turns out it wasn’t the stone at all, that’d be perfectly fine. I don’t think that’s going to be the case though but I’ll chime in with an update on how things are going.
For now I’ve decided on just cutting it out of the equation all together and get something new such as the Shapton 3k if I feel like I need to.