What's new

North Korea Missile Test

Ron - In regards to your comment about Truefitt and Hill - do you find that some products last longer on some people because of their individual chemistry? I've often complained that many fragrences, weather they be colonges, aftershaves, soaps etc, do not last that long on me. And its not simply that I stop smelling them (which, of course, happens), because I have had others tell me that the fragrance is not nearly as noticable as when I put it on hours earlier.

But then, maybe its not such a problem, because I do think that subtlety is always best with fragrances of any kind that we wear.
 
JohnP said:
While I understand the point you make, I in no way think America is at a morally inferior position based on the weapons they used in that war. Fact is, the Germans as well as the Japanese were developing their own nuclear weapons, and in no way do I believe they did not intend to use them. Basically, when you are in a gunfight, it is PERFECTLY ok to blast the other guy before he can pull out his and blast you. Which is essentially what happened. It was not until the 1980s-early 1990's that it was admitted how closed Japan actually came to the bomb. Had Germany's bombers been able to reach Tennessee, or Japan's reach Nevada, things may would have been different. Turns out the Germans WERE working on an early ICBM, simply the V3, but not sure it ever got past blueprints at Penemunde (sp?) where the Germans were working on their V2 program...


I disagree with this point on a few grounds. First, the UN had already issued warning after warning to Saddam, which he laughed at. Unfortunately for Saddam, after 10 years of his flaunting the rules, he claimed to have CBR weapons at a time when the United States had absolutely zero sense of humor about the subject. I know many say that if we did not find them they must never have been there....I do not believe this is the case at all. Saddam's own scientists were telling him he had these weapons, and Saddam had a history of executing those he thought were lying to him. So I believe they showed him SOMETHING. I've seen captured liquid fuel rockets, HUGE ones, which were all nuclear (Biological, chemical...choose your flavor) delivery capable, in close proximity to large quantities of CBR protective gear....gas masks, atropine, nasty stuff. So while he may not have had the equipment, he was prepared for something....and America isn't well known for being able to seal a border :tongue_sm such as Iraq's borders with both Iran and Syria....

Stephen,
while I agree with you about immigration needing to go through some restructuring, (for instance we shouldn't treat people who apply legally to become citizens like criminals, watching their every move, for years...)some of your beliefs are obviously based only on the (somewhat slanted) news coming out of this country. It is EXACTLY like slavery. American businesses are taking advantage of the illegal's lack of citizenship to pay those people WELL under minimum wage (and in turn keeping another actual CITIZEN from having that job) If you work a man all day, and give him a few dollars, it is still slavery, in everything but name.
Likewise it is not any more difficult for a Mexican to become a citizen of the US than it is for someone from any other country friendly to the United States. My girlfriend's father was born in Mexico and is a legal citizen. He, like many legal imigrants, is a true American. He could give lessons in being an American to many who were born that way. He APPRECIATES his new country. This is a STARK contrast to the hordes of illegals poring through the borders, demanding handouts, demanding we learn Spanish to speak to them, in addition to giving them our jobs because they will do the job for less than it is legal for us to work...
Were you to live here for awhile you would realize they do NOT want to become Americans, but simply want the money. They are still loyal to Mexico, and in fact almost a third of Mexico's GNP is money sent from illegal immigrants living in the United States. Almost 20 BILLION dollars annually. It isn't AMERICAN flags the hordes of illegals wave in their parades. Unlike immigrants, who are TRUE Americans, and could probably teach many natural born citizens a thing or two about appreciation for the country they live in, illegals are invaders, unwilling to obey the law, only looking for a handout. If it was TOO easy, citizenship would be cheap, and not appreciated. We want people to come here because they want to be Americans. Not because if they show up we will give them a handout.
When in Germany for a short time, (I do not know German) I learned just enough to get by for the few days I was there, and did not show disrespect to the German people by demanding they speak to me in English. Many, after seeing me struggle, did, but I did not demand it. That is ALL we wish from immigrants as well as guests. Unfortunately that is EXACTLY what the illegals are doing here, and our healthcare, our police, and especially our schools, have been heavily damaged.
As an American, I can not go to Mexico and fly an American flag (I will be arrested) I cannot demand businesses speak English to me, I cannot own property, I cannot gather in large groups (if Americans in Mexico staged a parade with American flags, chances are they would be arrested or shot) and not only that, Mexico SHOOTS people sneaking across THEIR southern border. So the hypocrasy is astounding from them. Mexico is sitting on a huge amount of oil. They could be filthy rich. Unfortunately, they are too busy shaking us down to realize their own bank is full.
America still says send us your poor, your huddled masses. We just ask that they come through the front door, like friends, like immigrants have for ages, instead of sneaking in the back window in the middle of the night and economically raping us.
I am truly enjoying this conversation, although sometimes I have a very difficult time putting into words what I am trying to say. I do not think we disagree on so many things as it would seem.
I look forwards to seeing the responses I get.
John P.

Yes John, I am enjoying this discussion as well. :smile:

There is a problem with your gunfight analogy, however. In a gunfight one is justified in blasting the other guy because his threat is imminent. While there is no doubt that Japan was attempting to develop their own atomic weapons, there is no evidence that they were about to commit an act of such Total War - and without very strong evidence of such an imminent threat, "blasting away" with your own act of Total War is not justified. Yes, Germany and Japan were attempting to develop nukes in order to utilize them, but unless one literally takes the position that "anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart (Matt. 5:28)", the actual use of nuclear weapons is hardly equivalent to the desire to use them. Finally - and this is an important point - the governments of Germany and Japan were illegitimate fascist militarist regimes and their unethical desires are hardly models which could justify similar behaviour on the part of a legitimate democratic government.

Yes, the UN had issued warnings to Saddam. Yes, he did laugh at them. But the US has no right to self-appoint itself policeman. If Tom breaks a contract signed with Fred and Fred warns him of the consequences but is choosing not to act, that in no way justifies Sam stepping in to punch Tom out. Sam has no right to enforce the breaking of an agreement to which he is not a party, especially against the will of Fred, the party whom has been wronged.

John, as to the use of illegal alien labour, I do think we actually agree after all on the slavery parallel. If I understand you correctly, you mean that the use of illegal Mexican labour is the modern exploitative productive equivalent to the use of slave labour - a point I would agree with entirely. My rejection of your initial assertion was due to my personal tendency to examine the comparison on a socially contextualized institutional level that it appears clear you were not intending. This is why I enjoy such extended civil conversations on such matters: the progression of the discussion reveals a depth of the other's perspective which often leads one to realize that their disagreement is one of misplaced semantic interpretations rather than actual points.

I did not mean to suggest that it is any more difficult for a Mexican to become a citizen than any other country's citizens or that they were being discriminated against in such a process. My point was that those poor, huddled masses are no longer being welcomed with open arms as they were in the past, but are increasingly being rejected through a highly selective immigration program. Mexico, because of its proximity, is the only country with the opportunity to circumvent such immigration policies by flooding over the boarder anyway. Oddly enough, it seems as if they're still attempting to realize their American dreams, even though they've been ruled to be illegitimate. The fact that they send money back to Mexico appears to be rather obvious, since the whole reason they came to the US in the first place was because of the economic opportunities that were available in order to afford a life for their families. Clearly then, they would send a great deal of money back to them. Yes, they are not waving American flags - so give them a reason to do so! The American flag is a political symbol, so give them the opportunity to participate and contribute to America, instead of ostracizing them as unwanted illegals.

When Germany has a rapidly growing English minority that makes up 10% of its population, then your comparison might be justified, but you in Germany is hardly equivalent to that of Hispanics in the US. Yes, as an American in Mexico you would not enjoy many of the freedoms that Mexicans enjoy within the US, but since when is Mexico the standard to which the world's leading nation is to be compared? Unless you are referring to the attitude of the Mexican government in this case, which I entirely agree is rather shameful, although politically prudent given the degree of their population which has relatives illegally within the US.
 
Stephen,
I think we're real close to understanding each other here. I've got no problem with anyone chosing to retain and practice their heritage, but as you have stated, English is the language of the future--or least it appears that way for now. I would never want any individual to miss out on any opportunity to better themselves or their family because they could not understand the language of the country they are living in. And, at the same time, I would never want anyone to feel that their language puts them in a different class just because it is not the same as mine. Afterall, I speak with a 9th ward/Chalmette dialect. I can assure you that it is a local accent that is not synonymous with education, but that just means that I have to be careful when I speak to people who were not from my neighborhood. However, I know that people can look down on this accent and the reality is that if I want to appear educated than I have to speak proper English. No problem there, I'm still free to speak my accent whenever I'm with friends.

Also, I agree that as a world, we should try to be more educated about one another's cultures. No culture is perfect in any aspect, but when we take the good of many cultures we tend to get a damn fine melting pot. I've always enjoyed the uniqueness of my hometown and look forward to visiting many other cultures in my lifetime. I've actually enjoyed this debate with you. I find that many people where I go to grad school are very conservative in nature (so am I) but because they are the majority here, they seem to have lost their ability to discuss a wide range of issues. They always retort with "'W' still the president". Hell I voted for GW, but I still think his policies should be open for debate. Ahh I digress, I'm going to prepare my talk for my committee tomorrow.

Good night to all. Or maybe I should say Buenos noche!
 
rschul2 said:
This position is against my better judgement, but I really don't see any effective way to deport a couple hundred million illegals)
Oops. That was supposed to be a couple million illegals. More like 12 million I believe.
 
Christoph said:
Ron - In regards to your comment about Truefitt and Hill - do you find that some products last longer on some people because of their individual chemistry? I've often complained that many fragrences, weather they be colonges, aftershaves, soaps etc, do not last that long on me. And its not simply that I stop smelling them (which, of course, happens), because I have had others tell me that the fragrance is not nearly as noticable as when I put it on hours earlier.

But then, maybe its not such a problem, because I do think that subtlety is always best with fragrances of any kind that we wear.
Hello Christoph,
That the life of a fragrance is related, at least in part, to the individual wearer's body chemistry is certainly the case. I have some colognes that I really enjoy that fade very quickly. For these I have learned to refresh them with a spray or two in the afternoon.
 
Austin said:
Gee Mark! We went from missiles in N. Korea to Mexican immigration. You sure know how to start a thread. :biggrin:

:001_smile just like a real barber shop...you go from one topic from another without a seam.

How about those Cardinals ???

Hey did you see my new fireplace i had installed, my wife loves it....she doesn't get cold anymore....

full




Now what would be good for dinner tonight....

mark the shoeshine boy
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Christoph said:
I think its interesting that we invaded a country even when we were told that they had no WMDs by all sorts of experts and people who had actually been investigating the matter in Iraq. And the product of this - the invasion of Iraq - is one of the biggest messes in American history. There was no real evidence of WMDs in Iraq. It was pretty much all speculative.
Hi Christoph;
Well, actually...this isn't completely true, but does seem to be what is being proclaimed widely these days. Fact is, unless you had better sources of news than I, Saddam's own advisors were telling him he had these WMD's, right up to when the first shots were fired. After which point the bluff has been called and it is too late to say, aww, just kidding guys... The UN weapons inspectors did not state before the war that Saddam did not have WMDs, simply that they had not found them. Not surprising, considering they were required to announce in advance when they were going to inspect an area, and even then were forbidden from inspecting certain parts of Iraq...personally, I believe Saddam did have WMD's, I also believe these are hidden or smuggled across the border in the early parts of the war (America is NOT the best at securing borders, these days...). I cannot fathom why there would be large quantities of CBR gear stored next to long range rockets unless SOMEONE thought there might be a need for them. You see, it is a double edged sword. While it is a huge embarrasment to say oh, the weapons are not there...it is a grave security risk to admit that you think they were, and you were unable to find or detect them. Not to mention, what kind of trouble would it cause diplomatically...lets just suppose we had found these weapons...and perhaps, Germany or France had supplied the critical portions. We would quietly deal with this issue and never admit we found anything. WMD's are a hugely loaded issue. I think Saddam had them. I KNOW he used them. Now, theoretically, if he did not...try running into a police station and yelling "I have a gun!". Would the police officer who shoots you be wrong, when they cannot find a gun on you?...or if you had waved the gun around then slipped it to your buddy outside....

Christoph said:
But now we have two countries - Iran and North Korea, who are not really doing much to hide the fact that thier ambition is to have nuclear weapons capability. And these two nations are also in a much greater position to build these weapons than Iraq was. So what should the U.S. do...? Well, arn't Iran and North Korea on the 'Axis of evil' list? (I could be wrong, so please corrcet me here if I am) Therefore, I would think that the U.S. should be going after these countries. The doctrine of the Bush admin in recent times would make that the logical action.
I agree with your first point. I very much dislike the idea of North Korea (a saber rattler from wayyyyy back) and Iran (Nazi Germany has NOTHING on this guy) having nuclear weapons. I do not know what will happen WRT Iran, but hopefully N. Korea can be settled down a bit more. N. Korea has a larger potential of becoming a global nuclear war than does Iran, due to ties with communist China (who, to be honest, as a military man, I think are a very grave, if unmentioned, threat...). If China can calm them down, being the massive superpower in the area, we do not need to. Were we as big as everyone seems to think, of course the US could go after them. But to be honest, as an American, I am tired of us having to do other countries' dirty work, then being questioned by those same countries who did nothing. And in this instance I am not referring to Canada at all. Canada is doing her part in all this.

Christoph said:
But then, world opinion is against the U.S. The nation is getting tired of war, and mistrustful of its own government. In a way, I think maybe North Korea and Iran predicted this and that's why they are persuing thier plans without seeming to worry much about a U.S. response.
Christoph, I was getting ready to disagree with you on this one, but I re-read what you wrote, and now I am inclined to agree in large part. Americans have begun being mistrustful of their own government some time ago, back when Pres. Clinton was "donating" the US Patent database, and unrestricting guidance technology sharing....to the communist Chinese (THANKS ALOT....now Chinese and Korean Long-March missiles can reach the U.S...) and when people who disagreed with the president or apparently had dirt....coincidentally died, either through heart attacks in prison, or suicidal gunshot wounds to the back....and now Pres. Bush, with his obvious desire for The U.S. Canada and Mexico to become a homogenized mass with no borders and a common currency...yeah actually I agree. Why would NK or Iran be worried. You can get away with almost anything, as long as you know you have enough political support in the US for them to do nothing....[/QUOTE]

Christoph said:
By the way, what to folks here think of Trufitt and Hill's West Indian Lime aftershave?
I've only tried a sample, but it was quite good...
I am finding that with more and more discussion, we perhaps agree more than we thought. Just maybe with a little different perspective, or from different directions. Another thing that bugs me, who made up this arbitrary number of 12 million illegals(?) that sounds like a huge understatement, meant to coddle Americans into supporting the president's amnesty program. Truth is it would surprise me if there were not more than 12 million illegals in San Diego alone.
Stephen, I in principle agree with you. If we could ascertain which of these were truly intent on becoming Americans, vice those who are simply here for the free health care and illegally gained social security benefits, I would definitely be supportive of a program helping those people (as well as other immigrants) become Americans. I still believe the free-loaders with no respect for their host country need to leave.
John P.
 
JohnP said:
Another thing that bugs me, who made up this arbitrary number of 12 million illegals(?) that sounds like a huge understatement, meant to coddle Americans into supporting the president's amnesty program. Truth is it would surprise me if there were not more than 12 million illegals in San Diego alone.
John P.
John, I'd like to tell you where I got that number from, but I can't recall if it was on Fox news or CNN. Escapes me right now.

As far as T&H West Indian Limes...nice shave cream and a great scent, but I've never used any of the scented ASB from T&H. I once tried their Classic ASB, which was supposedly unscented, and I thought it smelled like dirt. Never had a want to try any of their ASB after that experience.
 
Randy,
I have heard the 12 million number as well as a 20 million number...fact is, I think they have absolutely no idea. I won't swear to it, as I cannot remember who, but I believe it was an arbitrary number pulled from thin air by one of our politicians. I want to say it was Sen. Kerry....or perhaps Kennedy; but honestly I do not know. I do know there are whole sections of the San Diego area that English is basically not spoken, the American flag is not flown, and except for the free health care and perhaps questionably gained social security benefits, they are a part of Mexico, within the United States, in everything but name. I also get irked that if you do a search for aid here in San Diego and fill in the forms as if you were a 35 year old illegal alien who does not speak English, you will be offered everything from home loans to multitudes of programs offering grants, college tuition and other things. Fill out the same forms (it doesn't matter which one, anyone here can just google for what aid is available) as if you were a citizen, or attempting to become one legally...and suddenly the help dries up to a small handful. I feel this is wrong.
I am pretty sure I tried the T&H lime balm through a sample in the mail, and liked it. However, I have the CF limes balm, and they are a very hard act to follow, and for now, my lime balm block is already checked. CF just rocks.
John P.
 
mark the shoeshine boy said:
:001_smile just like a real barber shop...you go from one topic from another without a seam.

How about those Cardinals ???

Hey did you see my new fireplace i had installed, my wife loves it....she doesn't get cold anymore....

full




Now what would be good for dinner tonight....

mark the shoeshine boy
Mark, you are hard on your women....you need to cut back on shaving creams so you can afford to buy that poor girl some clothes....she's bound to be freezing! :wink:
John P.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
:rolleyes: that's why i got here the fireplace !!!!

I must say that this has been very informative to me with all of your views and comments...i don't believe that this issue is done yet, as each day something new will unfold....

Change will always be present as long as the earth exists, however, it is some of the changes that I just don't like or afraid of.

mark tssb
 
Gentlemen,

Let's not re-right history here ...., Japan in World War 2 was never ever remotely close to producing a nuclear weapon. Whilst Germany had at one time been very active in trying to produce a nuclear weapon, by the end of the war they had pretty much abandoned the idea due to technical setbacks and lack of political will.

As to the U.S. being swamped by immigrants etc ..., well let me remind you that you are pretty much a country of immigrants...., most of you don't have that long a history living in the States.

Some facts & figures:the U.S. breaks down as 75.6% White, 12.2% Black or African American, 4.2% Asian, and what remains are for others races including just 1.9% for those who are of two or more mixed races.

On the religious front the U.S. is 52% Protestant, 24% Roman Catholic, 10% None, 2% Mormon, 1% Jewish, 1% Muslim and the remaining 10% other.

So most of the U.S. is White & Christian.

Back to the question: North Korea has nuclear weapons and will test them should they want ..., the U.S. is powerless to anything about it unless they want to risk a weapon being launched in anger. I thought not:rolleyes:

Regards
John
 
yasuo200365 said:
As to the U.S. being swamped by immigrants etc ..., well let me remind you that you are pretty much a country of immigrants...., most of you don't have that long a history living in the States.

Some facts & figures:the U.S. breaks down as 75.6% White, 12.2% Black or African American, 4.2% Asian, and what remains are for others races including just 1.9% for those who are of two or more mixed races.

On the religious front the U.S. is 52% Protestant, 24% Roman Catholic, 10% None, 2% Mormon, 1% Jewish, 1% Muslim and the remaining 10% other.
John,
Thanks for the figures. True, everyone who is in the US is/or is a descendent of an immigrant except for the American Indians. Still though, most of the people who live in the US attained their citizenship status through LEGAL means. I don't think most Americans are opposed to immigrants coming into the US, rather, I think they just want people to come in the legal way. We are a country of laws and when laws are ignored for a select few--inevitably bad things will happen.
Out of curiosity, what was your point exactly in stating that most Americans are white, Christians???
 
yasuo200365 said:
Gentlemen,

Let's not re-right history here ...., Japan in World War 2 was never ever remotely close to producing a nuclear weapon. Whilst Germany had at one time been very active in trying to produce a nuclear weapon, by the end of the war they had pretty much abandoned the idea due to technical setbacks and lack of political will.
John, Hate to disagree, but in this case I have to. The only reason Germany didn't have the bomb first was because of allied raids on their heavy water plants, both by teams of commandos as well as day and night heavy bomber raids. The Japanese were closer than you would think. Feel free to google the Japanese Nuclear weapons program if you like, the fact that Japan was working on a bomb wasn't widely admitted until decades after the war. Japan, as I have said before, was in the same situation as Germany. Their bomb project was effectively ended in April of 1945, when a B 29 raid destroyed their diffusion separators. This can be read about on the FAS site. (a large part of nuclear weapons technology, as every high school kid knows these days, is not how the bomb works, but how to purify the isotopes to be used in the bomb itself). The Japanese apparently moved their facilities north into what is now Korea (they owned most of the continent in those days) where it was subsequently captured by the Soviet Union at the end of the war.

yasuo200365 said:
As to the U.S. being swamped by immigrants etc ..., well let me remind you that you are pretty much a country of immigrants...., most of you don't have that long a history living in the States.
Well, John, you seem to be an expert on my country...how does your OWN country treat people who sneak in unannounced, without permission or invite of your government? Thought so. So why should America bend over for the illegal invaders coming in here? All we ask is instead of sneaking through people's backyards in the middle of the night, that people immigrate LEGALLY like people have for, well, 200+years. We as Americans have worked hard, and yes, made some mistakes along the way, for what we have. We are willing to share, as well. But there is a difference in you arriving as a guest, and becoming an American yourself....and just showing up with your hand out, for the very benefits that Americans and their ancestors have worked for, with no intention of either becoming an American or being loyal to her.

yasuo200365 said:
Some facts & figures:the U.S. breaks down as 75.6% White, 12.2% Black or African American, 4.2% Asian, and what remains are for others races including just 1.9% for those who are of two or more mixed races.

On the religious front the U.S. is 52% Protestant, 24% Roman Catholic, 10% None, 2% Mormon, 1% Jewish, 1% Muslim and the remaining 10% other.

So most of the U.S. is White & Christian.
John, I am a little disturbed by what I think you are trying to imply. Clean up your OWN country before you mock mine. Of COURSE the majority of Americans are Christian and white. Most people here have ancestors from Europe. Many are mixes of people from all over. For instance, while I am primarily of Polish and Irish heritage, there is English, German, Japanese, Blackfoot and Crow. Some Mix, I know.
The point is, America is a country founded on the idea that a small minority should not have the majority of the say. We do not have a king, nor an emperor. Our president is elected every 4 years, and can only be elected twice. So why should so many people who are citizens of ANOTHER COUNTRY have any say in how MY country is run? Exactly. Now, if they move here legally and become citizens, they have just as much say as I do. Until then, no matter if they live here illegally or somewhere else, they are just another foreign citizen and I VEHEMENTLY object to one single cent of my hard earned tax money being spent to help them in their illegal effort to advance. Sure they all just want a better way of life. What about our CITIZENS who want the same things, but are turned away, because the money has already been spent on these other people? Unfortunately they are getting there by STEALING the benefits that would originally have went to Americans who worked their whole lives for them. Unless they immigrate legally, I say have them ask their OWN countries for the handout they are looking for. I am tired of being taxed to death so someone who sneaks here in the night can live free of taxes, be given grant after grant, schools in my country start requireing these people be taught (on MY dime, by the way) in their own languages....and then these same illegal aliens can pay IN-STATE TUITION to the same schools that I cannot afford, because, even though I have lived here for 10 years, I am not considered a state resident. Same applies to other people. If AMERICANS cannot get the benefits, why should my tax dollars pay for the citizen of ANOTHER COUNTRY to receive these same benefits, at the exclusion of legal, tax paying citizens. Why is this?.

yasuo200365 said:
Back to the question: North Korea has nuclear weapons and will test them should they want ..., the U.S. is powerless to anything about it unless they want to risk a weapon being launched in anger. I thought not:rolleyes:

Regards
John
Don't be so sure. If this assumption of yours is based on as little fact as the others you make (except perhaps your percentages...no doubt based on a census...last done 6 years ago...so even IT is suspect...)Don't be sure at all. I don't think all those new squadrons of B52's parked at Guam and Diego Garcia went there for no reason. U.S. is not powerless to do anything about it as much as you might like to think. Personally, though, I hope the Chinese reign in their rabid dog. China hates us (and indeed trains to fight against Americans on a regular basis) and we are oblivious to it. IMHO the only reason we aren't already in a shooting war with China is that we are their biggest customers. Sucks, doesn't it.
John P.
 
JohnP

A fuller history lesson - Germany's nuclear program effectively ended in 1943 when Norwegian resistance fighters (with some help from the British) attacked the Vemork hydroelectric plant, a site of ammonia production with a byproduct of heavy water ..., this was Germany's only source of this essential material for nuclear arms production. As I said Germany's infant nuclear program never really seriously recovered, in most part because the political backing waned as they didn't recognise (or know) the power of such a weapon. You may find this link on the Telemark Heros of interest, the documentary can still be listened to -

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/history/telemark.shtml

I don't know if it is a way of the U.S. further justifying the dropping of two nuclear bombs on Japanese civilians, with a side swipe at the old USSR to boot, but re-writing history in such a way as you're quoting is common practice when governments are open to criticism.

I'll repeat it again - In NO WAY was Japan anywhere near producing a nuclear weapon - it just simply didn't have the resources or the expertise. If you can come up with a respectable resource outside the influence of the U.S. government that says that Japan was on course to produce a nuclear weapon within a couple of years (if ever) then I'll eat humble pie.

For those who don't realise just how impressive the Manhattan Project was some facts & figures - it started in 1939 and would eventually employ over 130,000 people and cost a total of nearly $2 billion USD ($20 billion in 2004 dollars based on CPI), and result in the creation of multiple production and research sites operated in secret. So John do you still seriously believe that a country with no suitable natural resources, on the backfoot in defeat, unable to feed itself could mount such a project?

Moving on ..., the point of the facts & figures about the U.S.'s make-up was to point out that the U.S. is not as diverse as some may believe. It was a response to a comment made about Germany earlier in the discussion implying it was some sort of mono-culture - it was not an attempt to "mock" your country, but I find it is interesting that you thought it was John? Germany by the way (historically hardly a role model) has a substantial Turkish population as well as others, such as other Europeans (the EEC operates open labour movement for its citizens), ex-eastern block citizens and to a lesser extent Africans, Chinese etc.

By the way John I'm not anti-states, in fact I'm pro, but it is quite hard to like your government at the moment. Your statement "why should so many people who are citizens of ANOTHER COUNTRY have any say in how MY country is run?" really sums up the problem from the other side around the world.

By the way my family credentials are that I had a half brother who was American (he died while serving in the U.S. armed services, should that help you not to disregard such a connection). I also have a brother living in the States, married to an American and I'm uncle to four very young Americans.

I visit the States quite regularly so I believe I'm better qualified than most to make a judgement. Your language of "invaders" & "Clean up your OWN country" speaks volumes about the prevalance in the U.S. of (being diplomatic) a less than tolerant attitude. I tried to illustrate this point by the figure showing just 1.9% for those who are of two or more mixed races and by implication there's not much inter-marriage ..., the WASP's are not just to blame of course, but after many years of visits I still find it disturbing just how racially divided the U.S. is ...., a product of your history that refuses to go away I guess.

Finally the last paragraph ..., the bit about North Korea & "Don't be so sure", "squadrons of B52's parked at Guam and Diego Garcia" and the "China hates us" bit. It is thoughts like this that frightens the rest of the World and makes some believe (though I'm optimistic that good sense will prevail) that the U.S. is the real danger.

Regards
John
 
yasuo200365 said:
JohnP

A fuller history lesson - Germany's nuclear program effectively ended in 1943 when Norwegian resistance fighters (with some help from the British) attacked the Vemork hydroelectric plant, a site of ammonia production with a byproduct of heavy water ..., this was Germany's only source of this essential material for nuclear arms production. As I said Germany's infant nuclear program never really seriously recovered, in most part because the political backing waned as they didn't recognise (or know) the power of such a weapon. You may find this link on the Telemark Heros of interest, the documentary can still be listened to -

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/history/telemark.shtml
John, I actually agree in part. The Norwegian raid you mention was the commando raid I was referring to, although there may have been others. It WAS raids on Germany's facilities which hindered her. I have no problem believing either Germany OR Japan would have gladly used this weapon when it was completed. As for your statement that Germany's infant nuclear weapon program never recovered, that is irrelevant, and something we did not ascertain until years after the war was over, with the then secret ALSOS program. There were no inspectors in those days to find these facilities, no satellites to pick up some of the emissions of testing or production that we have now, nothing. Even today it is difficult to locate nuclear weapons production facilities, even with our technology, so much is speculation. In fact, I'm pretty sure we did not know much of Iran's advanced Nuclear program until the Israelis published satellite photographs of the facilities....there is much we do not know. What we do know is that EVERY side had a bomb program, EVERY side was well on its way, EVERY side planned to use their bomb in combat, and America was just the first one to succeed. There are plenty of legitimate things you can point your finger at America and scream "immoral!" without this one. It just does not fly when it is broken down into its components.

yasuo200365 said:
I don't know if it is a way of the U.S. further justifying the dropping of two nuclear bombs on Japanese civilians, with a side swipe at the old USSR to boot, but re-writing history in such a way as you're quoting is common practice when governments are open to criticism.
John, if it really happened, then it is not re-writing history. Fact of the matter is, war sucks. Nobody's hands are clean, especially in that war. Even neutral Switzerland...her soldiers may not have participated, but her banks were full of bloody money. The bomb dropped on Hiroshima was intended to completely demoralize the Japanese public and to demonstrate to Japanese authorities, including the Emperor, that they could not win. Analysts had concluded it would cost in the millions of American lives, and in the hundreds of thousands of British, (including Canadians) to drive the Japanese out of their recently captured territories and drive them to the goal, which was unconditional surrender. After Japan's rejection of the Potsdam declaration, and reviewing the projected losses, Pres. Truman made the call to drop the bomb. The targets were chosen based on military and industrial significance, as well as a desire to deliver as crippling a blow as possible in as short of a time as possible, so the Japanese would surrender, ending the war for everyone. Like it or not, controversial as it was, it worked. A war that had dragged on for over half a decade, at a cost of multiple millions of lives per year, was ended in a week.
Your allusion to some perceived sideswipe at the USSR is misguided. There are many accounts alluding to the Japanese producing heavy water at Konan (now Hungnam, in N. Korea) which facility was captured by Soviet troops. This is not a sideswipe, the USSR, like it or not, was on OUR side in those days...and after the war it was visited by Soviet submarines, presumably to transport this heavy water to other locations, where it was to be used in the Soviet program. The Soviet Union, as expected, was merely looking after her national interests, and her being our enemy afterwards has no bearing in the matter. I am sure that whatever country captured it would have used it to her advantage, if possible.

yasuo200365 said:
I'll repeat it again - In NO WAY was Japan anywhere near producing a nuclear weapon - it just simply didn't have the resources or the expertise. If you can come up with a respectable resource outside the influence of the U.S. government that says that Japan was on course to produce a nuclear weapon within a couple of years (if ever) then I'll eat humble pie.
John, while I understand I may not be able to convince you of anything, fact is that in the years after the 1960's, nuclear weapons have gained a stigma that they did not previously have. That former axis powers would play down their own bomb programs is understandable. There was plenty of mud-on-the face to go around. The Germans, to this day, have a difficult time with Hitler's final solution, and the Japanese, likewise, have trouble with some of the things attributed to them. It is too easy to say "Well at least WE didn't use nuclear weapons" and sortof sweep one's own program under the rug. They are our friends, now, and if they feel better thinking of things that way, so be it. I feel you should always allow someone to "rebound" from the low points and less "tasteful" things about their history. I understand you did not like the information on the FAS site...it is in no way affiliated with the US government, as you seemed to think, but is a watchdog group of scientists...but here are a few other references to look at....from what I can tell, it is apparent that the Japanese bomb program was considerably more successful than the German one, some accounts even claiming that Japan had successfully tested a bomb and was days from assembly or use of another...True? I do not know; regardless, the Japanese had a surprisingly advanced Nuclear program. I will admit this was shocking, even to me.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_atomic_program
http://vikingphoenix.com/public/JapanIncorporated/1895-1945/jp-abomb.htm
http://www.rense.com/general67/japansatomicbomb.htm
http://www.bookmice.net/darkchilde/japan/atomic2.html
http://www.thebulletin.org/article_nn.php?art_ofn=mj05norris
http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/japan/nuke-ww2.htm

yasuo200365 said:
For those who don't realise just how impressive the Manhattan Project was some facts & figures - it started in 1939 and would eventually employ over 130,000 people and cost a total of nearly $2 billion USD ($20 billion in 2004 dollars based on CPI), and result in the creation of multiple production and research sites operated in secret. So John do you still seriously believe that a country with no suitable natural resources, on the backfoot in defeat, unable to feed itself could mount such a project?
Obviously, yes...and the implication that Japan did not have suitable natural resources is completely false. Nor did the Japanese in any way consider themselves to be losing or defeated; which is why it was costing so many lives to fight them, and a large part of why the bombs were dropped at the times and locations they were. Do not forget that wartime Japan was a superpower in its own right, as it owned much of China, the Phillipines, Korea, the list goes on...was headed by a divine and invincible emperor, and was allied with Nazi Germany, who gladly shared what resources they had.....Japan had PLENTY of natural resources, except perhaps to a point, fuel. And they had nowhere near run out of that, either. Fact is we drastically underestimated Japan, perhaps thinking them backwards people, stuck in the middle ages, all while ignoring the fact that the Japanese were VERY technically advanced, and in fact almost utterly destroyed the U.S. Pacific forces in a single blow,(something Hitler's vaunted war machine could not approach) forcing America to play "catch up" and send scores of less trained boys (yes, boys....my great Uncle fought on Iwo Jima, many of his friends were 13, 14, 15 year old U.S. Marines...who had lied about their age) who were sent through a cannon-fodder style pipeline, to throw them in a desperate attempt to stop the superior Japanese war machine...yes. I completely feel Japan could have done this, and to suggest otherwise is simply to underestimate them like we have since learned not to. Japan's Dr.Nishina was every bit the physicist that any of the US or German ones were, and arguably better, and the Japanese had a LOT of experience at success. Something America did not experience until much later in the war.

yasuo200365 said:
Moving on ..., the point of the facts & figures about the U.S.'s make-up was to point out that the U.S. is not as diverse as some may believe. It was a response to a comment made about Germany earlier in the discussion implying it was some sort of mono-culture - it was not an attempt to "mock" your country, but I find it is interesting that you thought it was John? Germany by the way (historically hardly a role model) has a substantial Turkish population as well as others, such as other Europeans (the EEC operates open labour movement for its citizens), ex-eastern block citizens and to a lesser extent Africans, Chinese etc.
John, I have not seen any comment implying anything about Germany being a mono-culture. The closest thing said had nothing to do with the racial makeup of Germany, and more to do with the fact that while in Germany, I did not expect the Germans to have to bend over backwards to accommodate me, as a non-citizen. I stated that I had learned (very little) German, so that even if I did not understand something, I was polite enough to at least admit it to the person in their own language, rather than demand they speak mine. It had nothing to do with the racial break-down of the German populace. The fact that you tried to make it into such,to make an implication that Americans are somehow more prone to racism( is that not what you meant?) due to their makeup, is what I was referring to. If the shoe fits, John.....otherwise please explain yourself, because your words are clearly saying one thing. Are you perhaps meaning another?

yasuo200365 said:
By the way John I'm not anti-states, in fact I'm pro, but it is quite hard to like your government at the moment. Your statement "why should so many people who are citizens of ANOTHER COUNTRY have any say in how MY country is run?" really sums up the problem from the other side around the world.
John, reading the statements you make about me and my country, in a thread, incidentally, about N. Korea's plan to test a long-range, now nuclear capable missile, are telling. People in other countries are free to disagree with our foreign policy if they like. As for the illegals here, if you are a guest in a country, without its knowledge or invite, and not a citizen, it is just common sense you should not be able to tell that country how its laws should be, and demand it support you. This is distinctly different to a country finding the policies of another country not in its national interest, and taking action on those grounds. Two completely different debates entirely, I think. On one hand, you have someone who breaks into a person's house, eats their foods, and then decide to stay, and wants them to pay for his food, clothing, etc., will not leave, will not support the family in its struggles...which is in contrast to being in your own home, and noticing the guy across the street beating the crap out of his wife, or perhaps operating a meth lab....and calling the police. This is exactly the comparison to what is happening here, on a national scale.

yasuo200365 said:
By the way my family credentials are that I had a half brother who was American (he died while serving in the U.S. armed services, should that help you not to disregard such a connection). I also have a brother living in the States, married to an American and I'm uncle to four very young Americans.
John, it is irrelevant who your relatives and friends are. Their actions speak for themselves. If your brother truly died in service, presumably in combat, his honor is his own, and he has earned my respect. I myself am currently serving in the U.S. Armed services, and have served my time in Iraq as well; that does not mean in any way that I necessarily agree with anything my sisters might perhaps say. In fact their idealogy is for the most part different from my own, although I love them both. A man's family credentials do not define who he is, nor what he believes. I am sure you are a good man, John, but your implications about me and my country are inflammatory at best.

yasuo200365 said:
I visit the States quite regularly so I believe I'm better qualified than most to make a judgement. Your language of "invaders" & "Clean up your OWN country" speaks volumes about the prevalance in the U.S. of (being diplomatic) a less than tolerant attitude. I tried to illustrate this point by the figure showing just 1.9% for those who are of two or more mixed races and by implication there's not much inter-marriage ..., the WASP's are not just to blame of course, but after many years of visits I still find it disturbing just how racially divided the U.S. is ...., a product of your history that refuses to go away I guess.
John, I am starting to think you could find a "race war" in the middle of a ham sandwich. If not an "invader" what would you call an individual from a foreign country, who sneaks across the international border into your own, with intent of illegal gain at the cost of your fellow citizens, and now sometimes, under cover of automatic weapons fire(yes, this is true...some of the reserve officers in our unit who work for the Border Patrol as a regular job, have come under automatic weapons fire while trying to intercept fence jumpers and drug smugglers crossing in the night) from across the border....if not an "invader"? What word would you use? They are definitely not immigrants. Again, you make assumptions and imply things that simply are not true. You are trying to make my desire to keep citizenship benefits for citizens only (whatever their race, creed, culture, etc etc) to be a form of "racial separatism". Why don't you use the word you really meant to use, I can see it there, plain as day. Fact is I don't care what race an invader is. He or she is taking benefits, food, healthcare.....out of the mouths of legal citizens and this is wrong. Your allusions to race being a driving factor are misguided at best and ridiculous at worse. My statement about "clean up your own country first" was an allusion to the laws in your country. The United States, is, AFAIK the ONLY country on the planet that gives ANY benefits to people who arrive illegally and demand them. If you disagree that the US should enforce her borders, or support her own citizens first, then you should make sure YOUR country stops enforcing HERS, first. Until that happens, it is hypocritical to suggest the United States continue to fund millions of people who have not paid a single cent into the society they are joining, at the cost of our own citizens. Otherwise next time I need expensive healthcare or surgery, I'm just going to fly North, cross the border into Canada, and demand to be treated (for free) at the first hospital I find. After all, you're paying for it. That is exactly what is happening here. You are pointing your finger at me, telling me my country is messed up because of her immigration laws, and yet, my country bends over backwards for even illegal immigrants. Yours does not, and as such, I question your stance that we should do more for illegals here, when your own country does even less. There are immigrants, who I respect deeply, because they had to do more than just be born to become citizens, and illegal aliens. They could not be more different from each other.

yasuo200365 said:
Finally the last paragraph ..., the bit about North Korea & "Don't be so sure", "squadrons of B52's parked at Guam and Diego Garcia" and the "China hates us" bit. It is thoughts like this that frightens the rest of the World and makes some believe (though I'm optimistic that good sense will prevail) that the U.S. is the real danger.

Regards
John
John, John, John. What am I to say? You blatantly stated that there was NOTHING the US could do about N. Korea testing her weapon, or risk a nuclear weapon fired in anger.....fact is, that accounts to political blackmail on a global scale. N.Korea has already demonstrated her desires, having ALREADY fired a missile over Japan...N. Korea essentially gambled they could continue with their program however they pleased. As one of Japan's close allies, the U.S. cannot stand by and send the message to N. Korea or our friends in the region who are more directly threatened than the U.S., that we either do not care, or will do nothing about it if they did it again. Putting bombers on Guam is the large scale equivalent of your mother or father getting the belt out, and warning you that if you do not behave, it might be used.... It also sends a message to Japan, and others, that the United States is good for their word, and will gladly send her best and brightest to their defense.
Although you claim not to be, you have used this discussion to somehow demonize the U.S. or her policies, which you apparently know less of than you thought previously. If this is not true, you have implied that not wanting tens of millions of people sneaking into our country and demanding we pay their healthcare, social security, college tuition, and other things at the cost of the U.S. taxpayer, is tantamount to racism. While this is untrue (I vehemently oppose illegal immigration, but think the LEGAL immigration program needs a lot of help here) it is telling of what you apparently believe. You have implied that somehow the U.S. is the "bad boy" of WWII because we were the first to successfully use an Atom bomb in combat, and have even implied that this somehow means nobody else could feasibly have detonated one....
If what you are showing is not hatred of America, not just her current administration, I do not know what is. Your hatred obviously spans back 60 years and before, you seem to think our desire to not go broke feeding illegals makes us "racially divided"....I can understand some of the other statements made in this thread, who disagree with American policies, which, while I might debate with them about this, does not reflect so much a hatred of America so much as a misunderstanding of her policies. You, on the other hand, I'm not so sure. If you DO hate America and Americans, that is your right, as a citizen of another country. If you do not, then please please please, do not put words into our mouths or imply some horrible motivations for what her citizens want. Right now, we ARE paying all of those bills for the illegals, for instance. As a citizen, I do not feel I should have to. I resent that you somehow take that to imply I am racist against Mexicans. I think you should rethink your positions, or at least find a less offensive way of stating them, and then people like me would be less alarmed and come across less aggressive in our responses to you. You could learn volumes by reading from some of your countrymen, about how to handle a debate gentlemanly. I know while I may not agree with them, I recognize tact when I see it, and even I am trying to take a lesson in it when possible...If you believe I should invite illegals here to take for free what we have worked for for years, then explain to me why, rather than just insinuate that I am racist for believing it. If you think Korea should be allowed to fire their nuclear capable long-range missile anywhere they want, then explain why, rather than just saying, well "America is bad" so its OK if Korea does it. If you feel America was wrong to drop the Atom bomb on Japan, and should have sent hundreds of thousands of American, British, Canadian, and Australien boys to their deaths getting Japan to surrender, then that is your choice, personally it is tragic that almost a hundred thousand Japanese died in the two attacks, but the fact that it ended the war was telling, and in the long run I feel it was probably a smaller price for both the Allies as well as Japan, to pay. More would have died in the first week of an invasion than died in both blasts combined, with the current thought prevailing in Japan in those days. Without the Emperor announcing they had lost, people would have fought in the streets for another decade or so.
Just a thought.
John P.
 
JohnP,

He who wins the war writes the history - this is not just a glib statement, but America (and the Brits & the Japanese etc) tell lies, exaggerate, live in denial etc. The U.S. exaggerates Japans nuclear program and many people go along with it (why challenge everything you read or hear) because of laziness, ignorance or a feeling of patriotism. I would say all countries do this.

The U.S. originally exaggerated Japans nuclear capability (some parallels with Iraq & WMD) because it suits them to. It helped the U.S. to justify the Manhattan Project and its costs, the dropping of two bombs (in quick succession) on cities killing hundreds of thousands of civilians, it also helped some of the cold war arguements.

Now, I'm not going to get into the pros & cons of dropping two bombs on such targets ..., because in the end it was a difficult decision and things are never black & white, but my point is the re-writing of history and the perpetuation of a lie / blatent exaggeration of the facts.

Step back if you can John, you have been fed propaganda and half truths all your life by your media and government and look for the facts ..., real historians will trace the paper trail, look for the money, the plant, the personal & the claim in general ..., in this case, with Japan it does not stack-up that they had a nuclear program anywhere like as serious as the Manhattan Project and that is what it needed to be.

So what I'm saying is that serious historians don't buy it and I'm hoping that you can figure it out for yourself that it is lie / exaggeration and the reasons why they did that at the time and why it continues today.

I'm not going to get into the other arguements into too much depth ..., but I want to point out to you that it is difficult to recognise just how much propaganda, half-truths & lies you're fed when you are bathed in it everyday.

The North Koreans, Chinese, Iraqies etc have been lied to everyday and because of that they hold some views that appear/are irrational to us in the West. Well the same happens to you & me, and our society, our government, our media. My prejudices believe that you Yanks hold more irrational views than us Brits though.:wink:

Many more people outside the States (not just the usual suspects) believe that the U.S. is out of line on its policies around the World and how it treats other regions, other countries, individuals even. There is an arrogance about some of the U.S's thinking / actions that is irrational, destructive & destabilising. You John may not be able to pin-pont it, because lets face it your media is not likely to be really in-depth critical - that would be unpatriotic, wishy-washy liberal & most likely annoy the sponsers.

I'm sure however the general trend of growing hostility towards the States is apparent to you. Have you ever questioned why that might be? Do you write it off as mass U.S. bashing for the sake of it?

Just a moment to cover the illegal immigrants question - for decades now American companies have been employing these people, US citizens and their government have turned a blind eye - accepted their labour...., which it still needs. I know the Texans get particularly heated on this topic, but realistically do you believe that you can close off the border between the States & Mexico? Is that a viable long term solution? Why is this immigrant bashing so widespread and high on the agenda? Is it fair?

Sorry if this comes over all personal John. A number of forum members will read this and hopefully reflect on some of their core beliefs - maybe just a little - possibly.

What now ..., North Korea ..., Do you really believe that NK will use any nuclear weapon it has offensively against the States, i.e. take the first strike?
Are you seriously worried about NK invading the U.S.?

IMO if such countries (unfortunately) get nuclear weapons, apart from the States is being hypocritical in it's arguement, I'm afraid it can't do much about it unless it wants to risk a regional nuclear war ..., would you seriously want to do that? would you have the right to do that? would you ever be forgiven? could it escalate?

I thought I'll add another interesting statistic about the States - nothing (much anyway) to do with the above discussion, but it does illustrate a difference in culture between us Europeans (& Canadians) and the States and may move the discussion into other areas:

Number of Mobile Phones: 194.5 million
Number of Privately Owned Firearms: 200 million

Regards
John:001_smile
 
yasuo200365 said:
JohnP,

He who wins the war writes the history - this is not just a glib statement, but America (and the Brits & the Japanese etc) tell lies, exaggerate, live in denial etc. The U.S. exaggerates Japans nuclear program and many people go along with it (why challenge everything you read or hear) because of laziness, ignorance or a feeling of patriotism. I would say all countries do this.
I agree...until you get to the part of us somehow exaggerating Japan's nuclear program. Fact is, we pretty much ignored it, concentrating instead on what we believed to be the "more advanced" German program....we were wrong.

yasuo200365 said:
The U.S. originally exaggerated Japans nuclear capability (some parallels with Iraq & WMD) because it suits them to. It helped the U.S. to justify the Manhattan Project and its costs, the dropping of two bombs (in quick succession) on cities killing hundreds of thousands of civilians, it also helped some of the cold war arguements.
John this is not quite true...it was the GERMAN bomb program that frightened the U.S. into thinking the axis was going to get a bomb. Typical Americans, we underestimated the wrong enemy, and did not find how frightenly close Japan had been until after the war. Like it or not, both bombs were aimed at industrialized areas of strategic importance, and yes, it was planned to cause massive loss of life. As I recall, ALL nations were fighting this way...you can argue that killing is ethically wrong, and I will not disagree...however to say one method or another of killing is somehow "more evil" is ridiculous. Most people do not want to die, whether you kiill them with a bullet or an atomic weapon, and it is agreed that at LEAST as many people would have been killed (and even more cities destroyed) had a conventional invasion taken place. And, like it or not, war is about making sure the majority of those casualties are on the ENEMY side. Japan would have been reduced to the same rubble as Germany had a regular invasion occurred. Only in the last few decades has the idea of war being limited ONLY to the armed forces taken root, and then, not in all countries even today...and until the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor and the Germans started torpedoing US Shipping, America at the time wanted no part in the war, but unfortunately was dragged into it, often thought a huge blunder by the Axis. Your statement that hundreds of thousands of Japanese were killed is ALMOST true. Actual figures show that in Hiroshima 66,000 people were killed,andin Nagasaki 39,000 were killed. That is barely over 100,000.....the number approximately doubles if you include injured people in the mix, or those who die 60 years later claiming radiation effects... but actually killed, 105,000 total does not to me indicate "hundreds of thousands" although perhaps, being a little over 100,000, it technically could. That's like saying hundreds of people were in a protest...when there were 105 people there. This many people and then some, on both sides, would have been killed in an actual invasion. This is not debated by any expert I could find. Take it how you will.
yasuo200365 said:
Now, I'm not going to get into the pros & cons of dropping two bombs on such targets ..., because in the end it was a difficult decision and things are never black & white, but my point is the re-writing of history and the perpetuation of a lie / blatent exaggeration of the facts.
John, you say you aren't going to get into the pros and cons, and then instantly accuse me of perpetuating a lieand exaggerating facts. Which is it? Incidentally, you didn't like the facts taken off of the FAS site, so when I gave you several other sites bearing the same information, you refused to acknowledge them. John, we cannot "cherry pick" facts and only use the ones we like. Whether you feel America was right in her decision to drop atomic weapons on two Japanese cities is irrelevant to whether or not Japan had her own successful atomic weapons program. I think you are getting the two confused, perhaps? Are you so convinced that the Japanese were incapable or perhaps too stupid to develop their own bomb? Or, considering how we now know they treated Chinese and Korean citizens, that they would have used it at the first opportunity? The same people who beheaded the captured airmen from the Doolittle raid (the FIRST time America had even TOUCHED Japan) Please. In WWII, Everyone was acting like savages. That does not mean they were unable or too stupid to develop these things, or perhaps, had developed them. The same society which believed Jews were the source of the world's problems also created the incredibly sophisticated supersonic guided weapons which rained on London during the war...As to re-writing history....take a long, hard, look at what you've been saying...perhaps you disagree with some of my ideologies, but facts are facts and we cannot just ignore them just because someone we disagree with in principle said them.

yasuo200365 said:
Step back if you can John, you have been fed propaganda and half truths all your life by your media and government and look for the facts ..., real historians will trace the paper trail, look for the money, the plant, the personal & the claim in general ..., in this case, with Japan it does not stack-up that they had a nuclear program anywhere like as serious as the Manhattan Project and that is what it needed to be.
John, instead of trying to discredit me, based on whatever you think I've been indoctrinated with (for what it's worth, I don't trust American news, and trust most foreign news*as it pertains to the U.S.* even less.) try discrediting the evidence I have given you. So far you have not even attempted to do so, choosing instead, to call me names (my language skills are not THAT unsophisticated, even though I AM American, and not British...) Fact:Japanese cyclotrons were tossed into Tokyo bay after the war by US forces. The Soviet Union did not deny capturing Japanese heavy water facilities in Korea. The U.S. did capture a U boat bound to Japan with enough material to produce part of an A-bomb...we do not know how many had already made successful deliveries. In those days there was no Propaganda value to inventing any stories about a Japanese project. To the contrary, people would have been in uproar wondering why we did not know sooner. Fact is, you seem unable to fathom that Japan's Dr. Nishina was every bit as good as America's Dr. Oppenheimer or Germany's Dr. Heisenberg, and you seem to think that for him to be successful would require some huge project such as the American one, and furthermore assume that they did not. That is an awful lot to assume, especially when you are in an all-out war with a country. The American project was so huge because it had to be. The president and others felt America was playing catch-up, (which it was...by at least a year) and had better do it fast, with U-boats torpedoing shipping INSIDE New York harbor on our east coast, and Japanese planes hitting Hawaii and capturing island after island...
It is a fact that the Japanese had a separation project. It is a fact that a U-boat was captured with Uranium oxide ore on board, bound for Japan. It is a fact that some captured Japanese prisoners believed they had successfully detonated a bomb too, but had not been able to use it as a weapon yet (similar claims have been made about the Germans, incidentally, although the German bomb was supposedly much smaller). These are NOT things widely disseminated to the U.S. public. Like most governments, your own included, ours simply wants its citizens fat, dumb, happy and paying those taxes. Scaring them with the idea that (gasp) someone ELSE could develop a weapon as good as our own, well that just would not do....

yasuo200365 said:
So what I'm saying is that serious historians don't buy it and I'm hoping that you can figure it out for yourself that it is lie / exaggeration and the reasons why they did that at the time and why it continues today.
John, WHAT "serious historians" are you referring to? Produce even ONE that is not a political commentator. Some, if not all of the sites I gave you are respected sources of information in the international community. GlobalSecurity.org and FAS are perhaps the 2 largest watchdog organizations in the world for nuclear weapons proliferation, and are respected sources. They support the facts I have given you. None of them disagrees with what I have said, they only differ in their estimation of how soon Japan would have been able to detonate a bomb. Both of them imply it would have been frighteningly soon. The only non-government source of intelligence that might be larger or more widely respected is Janes, which has been called the largest Non-government intelligence service on the planet. So....which "serious historians" have you been getting your facts from? You know, the ones that refute what I have looked up. I am not trying to pick a fight with you, John, but you have implied I am a racist for not supporting a free ride to any foreigner who comes here unnanounced demanding it, you have claimed that as a nation America is somehow immoral for using atomic weapons in the middle of a total war, and have essentially called me a liar based on your dislike of the sources I gave you with information you apparently did not want to hear.....I agree with your countrymen that total war in and of itself is a horrible thing....but when everyone else is using guns, don't show up with a stick... You have tried to imply I do not know what I am talking about, when in fact you have no clue what I do or do not know....and you simply refuse to accept any evidence I give, no matter what the source. Your mind is closed. You even claim that it would be wrong to hold the figurative "stick" over Pyonang's head concerning their long-range nuclear capable missile, which they are not so secretly threatening Japan, SK, and the U.S. with. Incidentally, it has been widely accepted that N. Korea has had the "bomb" since the 1990's. What it did not have until recently, was a delivery vehicle capable of reaching anyone Kim Il Jung might wish to strike.

yasuo200365 said:
I'm not going to get into the other arguements into too much depth ..., but I want to point out to you that it is difficult to recognise just how much propaganda, half-truths & lies you're fed when you are bathed in it everyday.
I agree. This is true for any society.....and it's a good reason to turn off your TV and either look for things online, or, well, sign up and go see them yourself in person. To believe our own news, I would have thought that all Germans and especially Iraqis hated us. This turned out not to be true in the least, thankfully. Right now I suspect we are having this argument not because of the facts, but because your propaganda is telling you that I am a moron, believing every bit of the propaganda I am shown...because if you had genuinely true information or perhaps first-hand information, we would disagree, but your distasteful implications and insults towards me would be nonexistent. Who knows, we might actually get along...nobody likes someone who always agrees with him...

yasuo200365 said:
The North Koreans, Chinese, Iraqies etc have been lied to everyday and because of that they hold some views that appear/are irrational to us in the West. Well the same happens to you & me, and our society, our government, our media. My prejudices believe that you Yanks hold more irrational views than us Brits though.:wink:
Just because our views may disagree with yours as a citizen of the UK, doesn't mean our views are irrational. When they are based in fact, even less so. For instance, having been in harm's way right along side some of Her Majesty's finest, I know that even in the UK not everyone agrees with your point of view. Nor should I expect them to all agree with mine, either.

yasuo200365 said:
Many more people outside the States (not just the usual suspects) believe that the U.S. is out of line on its policies around the World and how it treats other regions, other countries, individuals even. There is an arrogance about some of the U.S's thinking / actions that is irrational, destructive & destabilising. You John may not be able to pin-pont it, because lets face it your media is not likely to be really in-depth critical - that would be unpatriotic, wishy-washy liberal & most likely annoy the sponsers.
To the contrary, John, if you had watched U.S. media in the past 5 years or more, they are the most self-loathing, America hating bunch there is. I think they hate us even more than you do. It is so bad that even Al Jazeera hates America only slightly less. If a Muslim extremist flies a plane into a building killing 3000 civilians, they try to justify it, and say we have somehow done something to them (ummmm....what?) and conveniently do not mention that they were muslim extremists until everyone hears the names of the attackers....if a 19 year old soldier shoots an insurgent, his family accuses the 19 year old soldier of "planting" the AK 47 on him, and the American journalist, ever after the controversial story, takes the side of the enemy combatant, and next thing you know a Marine is in prison awaiting trial for murder....for defending himself.....and the only evidence against him is second hand information told to a journalist by a relative of the insurgent....Our Marines, incidentally, do not have AK 47's, nor is there any extra room on their packs to carry one just to "plant"....but that gives you a little insight on how "Pro-American" our media is. Or I should say, is not. I used to listen to the BBC, its news was pretty good for a long time, but now they seem to suffer from the same sickness as the American version does. As to the international view of the U.S. I think some is guided by what our media often says, and others perhaps have genuine complaints. For instance, I think it is ridiculous that our Pres. Clinton bombed civilians and used graphite bombs on power facilities in dominantly Christian Serbia, when they were fighting Muslim extremist terrorists operating out of Kosovo. Now, before it ended, both sides were acting like animals, including the Serbians...but suffice it to say that then Serbia was having much of the same problems with muslim extremists as the Russians are with Chechnya and the very distasteful tactics those groups have been employing. To them, a dead schoolgirl is still a dead infidel. Thankfully not all Muslims (OR Christians) have beliefs that are so extreme. At least I hope not.

yasuo200365 said:
I'm sure however the general trend of growing hostility towards the States is apparent to you. Have you ever questioned why that might be? Do you write it off as mass U.S. bashing for the sake of it?
No, I think a large part of it is that most people believe the American News media tells them the truth about what America is doing, which unfortunately, just isn't the case. Many countries are also used to just sitting back, and America just standing by doing nothing. It seems nobody wants anything to do with America until the Nazi's have marched through the streets of Paris or England's finest have been driven into Dunkirk harbor. . Then and only then are we welcomed. It seems we are expected to be on constant guard duty, and in doing so we are somehow supposed to ignore our own national interests. Sorry, but no. In her glory days, England had the same problem. Go home redcoat....until we need protecting. America has that dubious role now. What many people internationally do not know, is that CNN and various other news agencies are businesses, are not regulated or required to tell the truth, and well, bad news sells better than good. My personal view is what our media is doing is wrong, and that manipulating the news to make our enemies hate us even more, as they do, is tantamount to treason. Lucky for them, our politicians are a softer sort than we had 150-200 years or so ago. They are just as guilty of treason as Benedict Arnold, Tokyo Rose, and Aldrich Ames. Unfortunately, they currently seem to have something of an "untouchable" status right now, which is unfortunate. Ask any combat veteran of Iraq (or choose the war) not just me, if what the news portrays is what really happened. I don't care if the veteran (or the news agency)is British, American, Polish, Iraqi, whoever. Chances are, he'll say no.

yasuo200365 said:
Just a moment to cover the illegal immigrants question - for decades now American companies have been employing these people, US citizens and their government have turned a blind eye - accepted their labour...., which it still needs. I know the Texans get particularly heated on this topic, but realistically do you believe that you can close off the border between the States & Mexico? Is that a viable long term solution? Why is this immigrant bashing so widespread and high on the agenda? Is it fair?
John, closing the border will do nothing. People will get higher ladders. Big deal. I think the fence is a diversionary tactic used by politicians to sidetrack Americans from the real issues. A fence is symbolic, at best. As for your mention of American companies hiring these people, you have hit the biggest part of the problem on the head. It is illegal for an American company to hire an illegal alien, but it is seldom enforced. People want their houses built for labor that only costs a few dollars a day. Fact is, however, that it's wrong. As I've said before, it is the equivalent of slave labor. Don't think so? what if these were LEGAL immigrants, and suddenly the companies all had to pay these workers an HONEST wage... I think your view that there is "immigrant bashing" rampant here is wrong. I am VERY pro-immigration. What I am against is illegal migration to the United States, followed by demanding free health care (which they receive, incidentally) schooling, and a number of other things. For free. I think you have been watching the U.S. Media for too long. They are obviously supportive of illegal immigration. I am not. I support legal immigration, and legal immigration only. What would the UK do if a ship landed every month with a million or so Non-English speaking Pakistani or Syrian or (choose third world country of your liking) who all then demanded you speak to them in their native language,demanded that you pay to send them all to school, who demand you pay for their retirement, and oh, by the way, a large number cannot work and go instantly on the dole....and in the mean time, these same people did not pay taxes like everyone else....and were given all of these things when actual citizens of the UK could not get the same thing.....the UK would crumble in less than a decade into just another third world country. This is what is happening here. You keep missing the point. No one has any problems with legal immigration. If someone wants a visa to visit the UK, and it is granted, then I am sure they are welcome, as they are in the U.S. If they then apply for citizenship, and later on it is granted....and those people are productive members of the society...then this is also welcome. Unfortunately, that is not what is happening in the case of illegals. Anyone who says so is very misguided, and has been leading you astray. Nobody bashes immigrants. Immigrants are here legally, and are doing their part for society. Illegal immigration is a different ball game. These people are living on the backs of people who have earned their place here, and are a slap in the face to those people who put forth the effort to become a legal immigrant, and citizen of the United States.


yasuo200365 said:
What now ..., North Korea ..., Do you really believe that NK will use any nuclear weapon it has offensively against the States, i.e. take the first strike?
Are you seriously worried about NK invading the U.S.?

IMO if such countries (unfortunately) get nuclear weapons, apart from the States is being hypocritical in it's arguement, I'm afraid it can't do much about it unless it wants to risk a regional nuclear war ..., would you seriously want to do that? would you have the right to do that? would you ever be forgiven? could it escalate?
A NK invasion of the US is not what is being debated here. Both of us know that is extremely unlikely. More likely, is that North Korea will attack Japan or South Korea....or perhaps lob a primarily symbolic nuclear attack into Los Angeles.....something, incidentally, both they and China have threatened in the past. No, I agree that invasion of the US by NK is unlikely. I still believe, that US interests could suffer gravely. The mere fact of NK having both nuclear weapons AND now delivery capability risks a regional nuclear war. Kim Jung Il has made it clear he has NO qualms about using them. Personally, I think the only reason NK hasn't already acted on their threats is because they ARE afraid that either the U.S. or the Japanese would perceive the threat and summarily incinerate them in retaliation.

yasuo200365 said:
I thought I'll add another interesting statistic about the States - nothing (much anyway) to do with the above discussion, but it does illustrate a difference in culture between us Europeans (& Canadians) and the States and may move the discussion into other areas:

Number of Mobile Phones: 194.5 million
Number of Privately Owned Firearms: 200 million
John, nothing changes, does it. This idealogy is thanks in large part to your own government, and good old King George III's treatment of her citizens in what is now the United States. They were not given representation in Parliament or Lords or whatever you will, were forbidden from even making their own gardening tools....even though they were British citizens...and flew the same Union Jack as flew in London...all had to be imported from England...same as the Tea, which in those days everyone drank....and yet you better believe the tax man still came. When people protested, King George garrisoned troops inside their houses;people were even hanged for some of the atrocious trade laws mentioned above...like making their own iron shovels...and were it not for private ownership of firearms, the colonists, who were given no protection by His majesty's army, would have been so much fodder to the wolves, warring tribes already here...or indeed, British troops, miles from the eyes of those in England who would protest in our defense. Fact is, as subjects of the crown, we weren't even deemed worthy, for the large part, of sending real British troops (who we could also talk with like normal men) but they sent primarily Hessian mercenaries, who spoke little or no English, but only German. Yes, ownership of firearms was considered vital in any country which had citizens as opposed to subjects. When British troops opened fire on a protest in Boston, it was the beginning of the end, and while at first the goal was simply to force King George to recognize the egregious wrongs and give proper representation, it became a revolution outright, with the results, such as widespread gun ownership, still apparent today. When Americans stop being allowed to own firearms, they cease to be free and may as well invite the Queen over, to take back her colonies. Incidentally the last big well known mass firearm registrations and subsequent confiscations, were in Nazi Germany, and Stalin's Soviet Union. The disappearance of those who disagreed with the government started not too long afterward.....
John, I think you are baiting me....because no matter if I got the Pope, the Queen, the Archbishop of Canterbury and a choir of angels to show you my point, you would argue that I had somehow created it from my imagination or from some racist tendencies you assign to me. Stick to your razors John, at least THOSE are something it is apparent to me you know quite a bit about and on which subject I respect your opinion. While I do not disagree with your views that many in the world dislike what they think America is doing, your statements and assumptions about me or my loyalty to my country, are offensive, and I wish you would stop. If you do not like what I am saying, produce multiple sources countering the ones I looked up. Do not call me a racist idiot and expect me to not make the connection. Do not underestimate me, my intelligence, or my country, based on what continent I live or what you perceive my heritage to be. If you disagree with me, and wish to debate it, that is fine, and I quite enjoy it. Sometimes I am right, other times I am wrong and have to swallow my words. But there is a difference in trying to discredit me or my beliefs by throwing in unfounded accusations about me, or where you perceive I get my evidence. Instead, take the gentlemanly route, and either give me credit for the evidence I put forwards, or discredit it with evidence that overwhelmingly proves the contrary.
That is how the best debates are done. Not by immature, if impressively verbose, name calling. If that was not your intent, then please say so, and re-think how you word some of the things you are saying.
John P.
edit: Kim Jung Il vice Kim Il Jung....
 
:blushing: sorry folks...guess some things just get me spooled up. I should know when to steer clear of a debate, but unfortunately the ones I tend to like tangling in the most are also the ones best avoided by those who wish to keep their dignities, regardless of who is right about what points. Sorry for contributing to the hijacking of this thread, Mark....
John P.
 
Top Bottom