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No.88 Redux

Steve56

Ask me about shaving naked!
Curious to know what the vendor says. I got the plastic looking one from one vendor and then got an email from another vendor that they have the old stuff, so I ordered. I'm guessing it's the same vendor you ordered from.
Here’s what Phil says, text of an email to the folks who bought ‘the last of the Valobra pucks’, images omitted since most are already here. You can see the full version on Phil’s site.

Dear Steve,

In mid May, we received a shipment of No. 88 shaving soap from the Czech & Speake distributor in Massachusetts. Upon unpacking the soap, I noticed that the boxes were stamped Made in Italy and the ingredients were the same as what we had always enjoyed. Above is a picture of one of the boxes with the ingredient list and the made in Italy Stamp.

About a week or so after I listed them for sale, I received an email from a good customer who had a concern with his soap. The color was off and it failed to produce a decent lather. At this point, I emailed Czech & Speake as well as the distributor. Czech & Speake told the distributor that they had dug up some of the old soap from Italy and that this was the last of the NOS soap.

A few days after that claim by Czech & Speake, a customer sent me a comparison photo of an actual NOS soap that he had in his stash next to one of the soaps that Czech & Speake "managed to dig up".

I forwarded the comparison photo to Czech & Speake through the distributor. When the Czech & Speake representative received this photo, he said that it was actually the new soap (Made in England) and that the made in Italy stamp was an oversight. However, he went on to claim that the ingredients listed on the box were correct and that Czech & Speake kept the formula for the soap exactly the same as it has always been. The only problem is this is also not true.

Here are the ingredients of the new soap as listed on the Czech & Speake UK website:

Sodium Palmate, Sodium Tallowate, Aqua (Water), Sodium Cocoate, Sodium Palm Kernelate, Glycerin, Parfum (Fragrance), Lecithin, Petrolatum, Zea Mays Oil, Sodium Citrate, Sodium Chloride, Tocopheryl Acetate, Cocos Nucifera (Coconut) Oil, Tetrasodium EDTA, Tetrasodium Etidronate, Geraniol, Linalool, Citronellol, Hydroxy Citronellal, Limonene, Oakmoss Absolute, C.I. 77499, C.I. 17789

As you can see, not only are the ingredients not the same, the very first ingredient is different. The soaps are not even close to being the same.

Once I get things sorted out with Czech & Speake, refunds will be issued for No. 88 shave soaps purchased between May 28th and June 10th. Please give me a couple of days.
 
Is this confirmed?
AFAIK, Soapworks is based in Scotland (and new C&S made in England).

Some say new C&S is made by Culmak (England).
I thought Soapworks was the one in England, must have got them confused but AFAIK the sodium palmate was the one that came from Soapworks, but looks like Culmak uses that as well, or perhaps I had them confused.

I think @Sabre is the guy to ask, he seems to be the one in the know of UK soap manufacturing.

ETA: here are the ingredients I found for the Culmak shaving soap on their site

Potassium Palmate, Sodium Palmate, Potassium Stearate, Potassium Palm Kernelate, Glycerin, Aqua, Sodium Stearate, Sodium Palm Kernelate, Kaolin, Palm Kernel Acid, Parfum, CI 77891, BHT, Pentasodium Pentetate, Tetrasodium Etidronate, Benzyl Benzonte, Citronellol, Coumarin, Eugenol

This looks like the versions of GFT, Penn, and the Crabtree & Evelyn soaps, which actually lather well. So now that makes me wonder why, if Culmak has this better potassium palmate base, did C&S opt for the sodium palmate base, which is almost universally disliked?
 
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...why, if Culmak has this better potassium palmate base, did C&S opt for the sodium palmate base, which is almost universally disliked?
Probably has something to do with the old (excellent Valobra) formula being primarily based on sodium (sodium tallowate).

(They should have at least had the second ingredient be based on potassium, vs sodium across the board.)
 
Valobra-made C&S:
Sodium Tallowate, Aqua, Potassium Palmitate, Potassium Stearate, Sodium Palmitate, Sodium Stearate, Sodium Cocoate, Potassium Cocoate, Glycerin, Palmitic Acid, Stearic Acid, Cocos Nucifera, Fragrance, Lecithin, Petrolatum, Zea Mays, Tocopheryl Acetate, CI 77891, CI 77499.


D. R. Harris (Culmak?):
Sodium Tallowate, Potassium Stearate, Sodium Stearate, Aqua (Water), Glycerin, Potassium Palm Kernelate, Sodium Palm Kernelate, Sodium Cocoate, Parfum (Fragrance), Prunus Amygdalus Dulcis (Sweet Almond) Oil, Coconut Acid, Petrolatum, Sodium Palmate, Potassium Palmate, Potassium Cocoate, Sodium Chloride, Tetrasodium Etidronate, Pentasodium Pentetate, Tetrasodium Edta, O-Tolyl Biguanide, Ci 77891.


New C&S:
Sodium Palmate, Sodium Tallowate, Aqua (Water), Sodium Cocoate, Sodium Palm Kernelate, Glycerin, Parfum, Lecithin, Petrolatum, Zea Mays Oil, Sodium Citrate, Sodium Chloride, Tocopheryl Acetate, Cocos Nucifera (Coconut) Oil, Tetrasodium EDTA, Tetrasodium Etidronate, Geraniol, Linalool, Citronellol, Hydroxy Citronellal, Limonene, Oakmoss Absolute, CI77499, CI77891
 
Probably has something to do with the old (excellent Valobra) formula being primarily based on sodium (sodium tallowate).

(They should have at least had the second ingredient be based on potassium, vs sodium across the board.)
Definitely, they could have just used the standard Culmak base since that looks like the preferred British soap base. I wonder if they were trying to save pennies per puck using pure sodium hydroxide lye.
 
That’s a shame about the new base. I grabbed a few old C&S pucks and the Valobra bowls back when the news first broke. I was hoping for a quality soap refill for the aluminum bowl. Maybe the classiest bowl (and most extravagant $) in wet shaving?
 

Steve56

Ask me about shaving naked!
Definitely, they could have just used the standard Culmak base since that looks like the preferred British soap base. I wonder if they were trying to save pennies per puck using pure sodium hydroxide lye.
Of course, low bid economics only work if all the candidates are the same. If you don’t use your own products or talk to people that do, you don’t know that all the candidates are not the same.

Soap is soap, right? Said the accountant for C&S that shaves with a disposable and hand soap.

The first thing that C&S need to do is make their decision makers use their products. Their fragrances are great because they did just that I think. Their current shaving soaps suck because they didn’t do that, I think.
 
Of course, low bid economics only work if all the candidates are the same. If you don’t use your own products or talk to people that do, you don’t know that all the candidates are not the same.

Soap is soap, right? Said the accountant for C&S that shaves with a disposable and hand soap.

The first thing that C&S need to do is make their decision makers use their products. Their fragrances are great because they did just that I think. Their current shaving soaps suck because they didn’t do that, I think.
The only people that seemed to have missed the memo on how poorly the sodium palmate base is received seem to be the companies that continue to sell it. They must think there is no market for traditional shave soaps when they look at their sales because many of their customers are refusing to purchase those pucks. Are they really that out of touch with their own market, or are they just abandoning it completely but trying to look like they actually care?
 
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Would it he possible for someone who knows for sure they have an old, regular size puck of 88 post a picture of it? It would be nice to see a definitive picture of the old stuff to compare to the new (including the different stamp). Thanks.
 

garyg

B&B membership has its percs
Would it he possible for someone who knows for sure they have an old, regular size puck of 88 post a picture of it? It would be nice to see a definitive picture of the old stuff to compare to the new (including the different stamp). Thanks.

See above, that has been posted already
 
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See above, that has been posted already
The pictures above are of an old travel size 88 beside a new regular size 88 and of an old OC. I was hoping someone could provide a definitive side by side of a new and an old regular size 88.
 

garyg

B&B membership has its percs
The difference in the stamps is the same .. the old has the street number & the new lacks it
 
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