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No.88 Redux

garyg

B&B membership has its percs
Just received an email from C&S - the new No.88 will be shipping next month.

While C&S says it is "A new, more complex formulation, improved moisturising agents for a smoother, closer shave with a delicious concentration of the purest essential oils, making the soap true to our iconic No.88 fragrance." The listed ingredients are the same as what is listed on an older puck I had stored .. or is this old news I had missed?


Full Ingredients:

Sodium Tallowate, Aqua (Water), Potassium, Palmitate, Potassium Stearate, Sodium Palmitate, Sodium Stearate, Sodium Cocoate, Potassium Cocoate, Glycerin, Palmitic Acid, Stearic Acid, Cocos Nucifera, Parfum (Fragrance), Lecithin, Petrolatum, Zea Mays, Tocopheryl Acetate, C.I. 77891, C.I. 77499
 
Thanks for sharing this. Curious if anyone has more insight into this. Hopefully the performance will be as good as the old Valobra soaps because those C&S soaps were awesome.
 
On the C&S site, you can pre-order the No. 88 soap, set to ship April 12, 2021. Here's what it says there for ingredients:

Sodium Palmate, Sodium Tallowate, Aqua (Water), Sodium Cocoate, Sodium Palm Kernelate, Glycerin, Parfum (Fragrance), Lecithin, Petrolatum, Zea Mays Oil, Sodium Citrate, Sodium Chloride, Tocopheryl Acetate, Cocos Nucifera (Coconut) Oil, Tetrasodium EDTA, Tetrasodium Etidronate, Geraniol, Linalool, Citronellol, Hydroxy Citronellal, Limonene, Oakmoss Absolute, C.I. 77499, C.I. 17789

Sodium, sodium, sodium, and more sodium. Not a great sign.

By way of contrast, the O&C soap is listed simply as "Sold Out," with the old ingredients list.

 
Glad to see it’ll be tallow. I wonder who the manufacturer is. A tallow soap narrows it down for sure, who are the tallow manufacturers in Europe?

Speick
Tabac

Who else?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

garyg

B&B membership has its percs
Perhaps the website is still being updated as there appears to be two different ingredient lists - the one just cited by Tim with Sodium Palmate as the first ingredient, another with the list I copied & pasted above .. on the soap with bowl and the travel size, as of right now
 
On the C&S site, you can pre-order the No. 88 soap, set to ship April 12, 2021. Here's what it says there for ingredients:

Sodium Palmate, Sodium Tallowate, Aqua (Water), Sodium Cocoate, Sodium Palm Kernelate, Glycerin, Parfum (Fragrance), Lecithin, Petrolatum, Zea Mays Oil, Sodium Citrate, Sodium Chloride, Tocopheryl Acetate, Cocos Nucifera (Coconut) Oil, Tetrasodium EDTA, Tetrasodium Etidronate, Geraniol, Linalool, Citronellol, Hydroxy Citronellal, Limonene, Oakmoss Absolute, C.I. 77499, C.I. 17789

Sodium, sodium, sodium, and more sodium. Not a great sign.

By way of contrast, the O&C soap is listed simply as "Sold Out," with the old ingredients list.

Sorry to ask but why is this?

Not that I am disagreeing with you but I have no idea why it would be a bad thing. It's something I never considered, but looking at the new reformulation it seems short of potassium compounds.
 
I was just about to post this! I wonder who will be making it? Interestingly its a seven times milled, not sure if anyone else does that?

Screenshot_20210313-123011_Chrome.jpg
 
Perhaps the website is still being updated as there appears to be two different ingredient lists - the one just cited by Tim with Sodium Palmate as the first ingredient, another with the list I copied & pasted above .. on the soap with bowl and the travel size, as of right now
Travel size (of 88 and Oxford and Cambridge) are still both available to order. I'm assuming they are just using up old stock and then they will gradually switch everything to the new formula?
 
Sorry to ask but why is this?

Not that I am disagreeing with you but I have no idea why it would be a bad thing. It's something I never considered, but looking at the new reformulation it seems short of potassium compounds.
I had the same question. I've never intentionally made soap, but my understanding was that sodium hydroxide made a harder soap (which I happen to like) and potassium hydroxide made soft or even liquid soap. A lot of soapers use a mix of the two to adjust their consistency.
 
I had the same question. I've never intentionally made soap, but my understanding was that sodium hydroxide made a harder soap (which I happen to like) and potassium hydroxide made soft or even liquid soap. A lot of soapers use a mix of the two to adjust their consistency.
Potassium soaps are softer, all other things being equal, but if you look at any shave soap that works well - even the very hard-milled ones - you'll see potassium stearate and/or tallowate. Potassium salts are more soluble in water than sodium salts. This means the soap lathers more easily and also that the lather remains stable. Pure sodium salt lathers tend to be airy and dissipate quickly. When Trumper and T&H switched from potassium palmate first to sodium palmate first in their ingredient list, their soap took a dive. You can have some sodium salts in the recipe - and it's pretty tough to mill an all potassium soap - but if there's no potassium hydroxide used at all, it's a pretty good bet the soap will be a dud for shaving.

I like hard soaps (Palmolive, Speick, Tabac, and Harris are my most-used soaps) but the hard-milled shave soaps are achieved not only by using some sodium salts, but also by long drying of the base soap and the milling process, which removes moisture and glycerin from the base.
 
Potassium soaps are softer, all other things being equal, but if you look at any shave soap that works well - even the very hard-milled ones - you'll see potassium stearate and/or tallowate. Potassium salts are more soluble in water than sodium salts. This means the soap lathers more easily and also that the lather remains stable. Pure sodium salt lathers tend to be airy and dissipate quickly. When Trumper and T&H switched from potassium palmate first to sodium palmate first in their ingredient list, their soap took a dive. You can have some sodium salts in the recipe - and it's pretty tough to mill an all potassium soap - but if there's no potassium hydroxide used at all, it's a pretty good bet the soap will be a dud for shaving.

I like hard soaps (Palmolive, Speick, Tabac, and Harris are my most-used soaps) but the hard-milled shave soaps are achieved not only by using some sodium salts, but also by long drying of the base soap and the milling process, which removes moisture and glycerin from the base.
That's a genuinely superb reply, thanks for the info.

I completely forgot about the Trumpers soaps, which are made in the UK.

Here is the ingredients list for the Trumpers Rose hard soap
Sodium Palmate, Sodium Palm Kernelate, Aqua (Water), Glycerin, Sodium Cocoate, Parfum (Fragrance), Sodium Chloride, Tetrasodium Glutamate Diacetate, Isopropyl Myristrate, Geraniol, Citronellol, Hydroxycitronellal, Tetrasodium EDTA, Coconut Fatty Acid, BHT, Linalool, CI 77891, CI 77718, CI 73360.

This is the C&S new one

Sodium Palmate, Sodium Tallowate, Aqua (Water), Sodium Cocoate, Sodium Palm Kernelate, Glycerin, Parfum (Fragrance), Lecithin, Petrolatum, Zea Mays Oil, Sodium Citrate, Sodium Chloride, Tocopheryl Acetate, Cocos Nucifera (Coconut) Oil, Tetrasodium EDTA, Tetrasodium Etidronate, Geraniol, Linalool, Citronellol, Hydroxy Citronellal, Limonene, Oakmoss Absolute, C.I. 77499, C.I. 17789

This is the ingredients list for the Cyril Salter tallow soap made in the UK.



I think the Salter hard soap, Trumpers and maybe even the Harris tallow soaps are made by Culmak, and I'm purely speculating but looking at the new C&S formulation it could be they will make it as well.
 
That's a genuinely superb reply, thanks for the info.

I completely forgot about the Trumpers soaps, which are made in the UK.

Here is the ingredients list for the Trumpers Rose hard soap
Sodium Palmate, Sodium Palm Kernelate, Aqua (Water), Glycerin, Sodium Cocoate, Parfum (Fragrance), Sodium Chloride, Tetrasodium Glutamate Diacetate, Isopropyl Myristrate, Geraniol, Citronellol, Hydroxycitronellal, Tetrasodium EDTA, Coconut Fatty Acid, BHT, Linalool, CI 77891, CI 77718, CI 73360.

This is the C&S new one

Sodium Palmate, Sodium Tallowate, Aqua (Water), Sodium Cocoate, Sodium Palm Kernelate, Glycerin, Parfum (Fragrance), Lecithin, Petrolatum, Zea Mays Oil, Sodium Citrate, Sodium Chloride, Tocopheryl Acetate, Cocos Nucifera (Coconut) Oil, Tetrasodium EDTA, Tetrasodium Etidronate, Geraniol, Linalool, Citronellol, Hydroxy Citronellal, Limonene, Oakmoss Absolute, C.I. 77499, C.I. 17789

This is the ingredients list for the Cyril Salter tallow soap made in the UK.



I think the Salter hard soap, Trumpers and maybe even the Harris tallow soaps are made by Culmak, and I'm purely speculating but looking at the new C&S formulation it could be they will make it as well.
That's an awful lot of sodium. Sounds like C&S hard soaps might be going in the wrong direction along with some of the other English hard soaps.
 
That Salter soap is the same as the current Harris. Same ingredients, top to bottom. It's very good. I don't understand why C&S couldn't reach out to whomever makes it and ask for the same formulation for their hard soap. Or to whomever is making T&H's Apsley soap and the new Floris pucks if they want a tallow-free formula that actually lathers.
 
T
That Salter soap is the same as the current Harris. Same ingredients, top to bottom. It's very good. I don't understand why C&S couldn't reach out to whomever makes it and ask for the same formulation for their hard soap. Or to whomever is making T&H's Apsley soap and the new Floris pucks if they want a tallow-free formula that actually lathers.
T&H Apsley and the new Floris pucks are on my to buy list. Hopefully T&H start to make all of their soaps with that base in the future!
 
That Salter soap is the same as the current Harris. Same ingredients, top to bottom. It's very good. I don't understand why C&S couldn't reach out to whomever makes it and ask for the same formulation for their hard soap. Or to whomever is making T&H's Apsley soap and the new Floris pucks if they want a tallow-free formula that actually lathers.
Culmak make the vegan T&H, TOBS, Floris pucks and the tallow Salter/Harris ones.

From another forum, someone asked C&S directly and they said the new 88 shaving soap will be made in the UK, so I'd wager from looking at the new ingredient lists and the ingredients lists for other Culmak made soaps be it vegan or tallow, it looks quite similar.

To echo the sentiment from the other forum, I think it's probably Culmak who will be making the new C&S 88 shaving soap.
 
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