newbie honing question

[pjdevos]

Hello Gents,

Learning straight shaving and also honing. Both aren't doing too well at the moment. I could use some advice in the honing department. I just got a razor in that had some chips in the edge, so I started from scratch. I followed the information I found on the net. Bevel setting went well I think and I progressed with 4k, 8k and 12k. I couldn't really shave my arm hairs in the end. When looking under a magnifying glass I noticed the edge isn't consistently wide, the width of the shiny honed surface along the edge varies. I used X-strokes and when I started the razor was flat along the edge.

What am I doing wrong?

Oh I've got 3 razors as a sharpness reference, 2 new honed by different professionals and a whippeddog. The last one is extremely sharp.

 

[Mike H]

It will take a long time to set the bevel on a 4K, but if that is the lowest grit you have, then go with it.
It should shave arm hair before moving to the 8K side.

Here is a great thread ; http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php/154799-The-Key

 

[pjdevos]

It will take a long time to set the bevel on a 4K,

Here is a great thread ; http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php/154799-The-Key

oops, no I started on the 220 with a few strokes (5 laps) and then set the bevel on my 1k.

Okay, I misinterpreted the arm hair shaving, so thanks for setting me straight!

How long (how many laps) does it that to set a bevel typically?

 

[Mike H]

Each razor is different, 5 to 20 minutes to set the bevel. How many strokes ...? I usually start with 10 sets of 5 half strokes then 50 x strokes and evaluate the edge, that takes just a few minutes. Then repeat. Once I see progress, I will ease up on the pressure and just do x strokes.

I am no honemeister, hopefully an experience member will respond.

 

[buca3152]

I'm no honemeister either. I would stay on the 1k til it cuts arm hair along the whole edge. I have no problem setting a bevel with a 3k cholera as long as the blade isn't too far off. I use heel leading half strokes, sets of 20 and I only use half the hone so I can follow the contour of the blade. Most blades aren't flat btw. And many are short at the heel or toe or both! There's a video on YouTube of Alex Jacques honing. That's pretty much what I do. But his hones are cut in half, I just only use one side.

 

[smalltank]

+1 on a 1k synthetic stone or a DMT1200 Diamond Plate...

 

[Gamma]

Depends on steel/edge condition and existing bevel geometry.
I just set bevels on 4 razors - all have some kind of hollow grind - each took an ungodly amount of work to straighten out.
Yeah, sure - I coulda bailed early when it was first cutting arm hair but I kept on each one until the edge was at peak and the bevel was as true as I'm going to get it.
Visually - none are perfect looking - the grinds are off, they were honed poorly in the past - and making the bevels visually 'perfect' would mean removing too much steel.
I'd rather get them shaving perfectly - none of them are going to be winning a beauty contest any time soon.

A well-treated or well done 'new' blade can go quickly, I've set bevels in 10 minutes on razors that were in good shape.
If I take a wedge out of my 'ready' box - I could reset that bevel in about 5 minutes on a 5k.
Point being - razors that have been mistreated can take a good amount of work to fix up.

A new 8/8 W&B with a 1/8-1/4 hollowish grind rolled in today; looks to have a factory edge - albeit a bit pitted.
No spine wear - original grind marks in the steel come up from the edge and continue across the spine.
This one is going to take some work, no doubt about it.

When I'm setting bevels - time count and lap-count go out the window - done is done. Until it's done, it's not done.
If it takes an hour till I'm satisfied - then that's what it is. I'd rather have more spine wear and a spot-on bevel than less spine wear and a 1/2 assed bevel.

A smooth edge is contingent on a properly aligned bevel.
Sharp is easy - smooth is the elusive quality and it starts at the bevel.

Edit - bevel is set on the W&B - took less than 15 minutes. Surprisingly - the pitting was superficial and the steel was immaculate after a few passes on an 800x.
So there you have it - setting the bevel on a razor with a very Wedgy grind isn't neccessarily a long arduous process all the time.

 

[jpcwon]

Gamma said it all...

I have found that if I think the bevel is set but I'm not 100% sure, then it's not set. You should be shaving arm hair off of your bevel setter (whatever that may be)...I would go back and check your bevel one more time, and make certain that that sucker is REALLY set!!

 

[pjdevos]

What does setting a visually perfect bevel mean? What other ways can one set a bevel?

After a lot of elbow grease and using more pressure than I would have used previously I got a very sharp razor. Bevel still looks wider on one side in some places than on the other side. Will test it today.

 

[Gamma]

The razor is an imperfect thing that may (usually) have a geometric variance or two - add in abuse from mishandling and improper honing and you have a challenge- make the bevel perfect looking on both sides or just get the best geometry possible and live with a minor visual distraction.
Bevels with waves, different widths, etc can all be fine in an angular sense but disarming visually.

 

[Slash McCoy]

220 until the chips are completely gone. Completely.

1k half laps or circle strokes, on only one side, until you can detect a faint burr along the entire edge. The entire edge. The entire edge. After de-chipping with the 220 it should already be pretty much there but we are raising the burr just to check. Likely you will have it in only 50 circle strokes or so. If not, keep going. If so, flip the blade and hone the other side the same number of strokes and you should feel the burr again, but switched to the other side. If not, keep at it but it should be there. You want to end up with the same number of half laps on each side. Then hone normally with alternating laps until all traces of burr are gone. Probably about 40 light laps. Your bevel should be set. It should shave arm hair pretty easy. It should be sharper than your sharpest knife. If your bevel is not absolutely definitely set, you must NOT try to move up in the progression or your edge is doomed to dullness. It does absolutely positively no good to run your progression if you skimped on the bevel setting. Yes, this removes some considerable amount of steel. Maybe a micron or two more than would be absolutely needed. But you only ever have to do this once so don't sweat the small stuff.

After setting the bevel you can if desired glass the edge. Lightly pull the razor once over a beer bottle. Then hone on the 4k until it once again cuts arm hair easily. It should cut a little easier than off the 1k. Very light pressure here and from here on out.

Don't glass the edge after the 4k. Hit the 8k and pay attention to the feedback, because this is where feedback begins to become very obvious. The honing water should eventually ride up over the edge as the edge slices cleanly underneath it. You should feel the edge start to get very smooth as the razor glides more easily over the hone. You may even feel another stage after this, when the bevel gets so smooth that it forms a suction with the hone, and begins to feel sticky as you stroke up and down the hone. After the 8k, if you pass the razor 1/4" or so over your forearm, you should see an occasional hair end fall to the sharp edge. It will probably grab and ping loudly. YMMV and it depends a lot on your hair texture. At this point it should also shave your face with an acceptable if unimpressive level of sharpness and comfort. In fact, it is a good idea to stop at 8k the first few honings. If you can't get a shaving edge from 8k, then it will do you no good whatsoever to hit your finisher. Learn to get the most out of the 8k level first. You can try rinsing the stone and adding lather, and doing a couple hundred very light laps on lather. This is an old trick that was often used on barber hones to get an edge well beyond the normal capabilities of the hone, and it works well at the 6k to 8k stage.

Finally, when you are ready to hit your finisher, use even lighter pressure. Watch for your feedback. The sticky feeling should be fairly obvious when the 12k is peaked out on your edge. You can still use lather or soap at this stage for an ultra finish. When passing the razor over your forearm at 1/4" it should treetop several hairs in a pass, and the ping should be pretty soft. This will be a nice sharp edge but it might possibly be a bit harsh and unforgiving. Either get used to it and enjoy a really sharp edge and a clean shave and let your technique improve so that your comfort increases, or soften the edge with a hanging strop treated with an abrasive. .1u diamond works great and is IMHO the best thing. Iron Oxide, the red paste, works too. You want only a light application, rubbed in well, and not a coating. This will not be your regular strop. This will be a post-honing strop from the time you paste it. Anyway pull it moderately tight and strop with light pressure. Remember there is abrasive present and so you are actually cutting steel. Wipe the blade carefully before hitting your regular unpasted hanging strop.

If your bevel was properly set, don't worry about minor imperfections in the width of the bevel flat etc. The important thing is that the two planes that make up the bevel intersect perfectly where there is steel present. The edge is what matters. That intersection is the edge. Everything else only supports the presentation or establishment of that edge. The bevel IS the edge. All other honing stages simply polish it, each in turn removing the scratches of the previous stage and substituting its own finer scratches. The progression must not be short changed. Every stage must do its work completely and fully before moving on, or the next stage will fail.

Good luck, happy honing, and finest shaves.

 

[pjdevos]

http://badgerandblade.com/vb/member.php/30791-Slash-McCoySlash McCoy, thank you for your detailed answer. You described a lot of the things I came across and had questions about.

The honing goes on!