Newb corner: Do you absolutely need a finishing hone?

[thanks]

I'm sorry for this post in advance. I've seen much discussion on this in the past, but in very vague wording. No one has given a clear answer out of all the threads I've seen concerning this, so I would just like to clear the air on the subject.

I have a Norton 4k/8k combo, and I've gotten a razor shave ready with it after I finished it on chromium oxide and stropped it well. With my regular Dovo I just strop it on chromium oxide once a week and the blade is sharp as it's ever been. Will this eventually stop working? I've heard answers that go both ways on this subject, but so far if anything my stropping has gotten a lot better than it was, and everytime I take it to the chromium it gets sharper than the week before. For all the people who said a filly strop isn't enough to maintain an edge indefinitely, why not? When should I expect to see a decline in the edge, if that is your answer? Obviously this is assuming the strop won't receive physical damage, and eventually the chromium oxide may become ineffective, but at that point I could just spend the 20$ for another filly, or just buy some more chromium oxide.

For the record, I'm not entirely against finishing hones. I just hate the idea of buying a lapping stone specifically for a cheap Chinese 12k. Is there anyone online I could purchase a pre-lapped Chinese 12k?

 

[SavantStrike]

I'm sorry for this post in advance. I've seen much discussion on this in the past, but in very vague wording. No one has given a clear answer out of all the threads I've seen concerning this, so I would just like to clear the air on the subject.

I have a Norton 4k/8k combo, and I've gotten a razor shave ready with it after I finished it on chromium oxide and stropped it well. With my regular Dovo I just strop it on chromium oxide once a week and the blade is sharp as it's ever been. Will this eventually stop working? I've heard answers that go both ways on this subject, but so far if anything my stropping has gotten a lot better than it was, and everytime I take it to the chromium it gets sharper than the week before. For all the people who said a filly strop isn't enough to maintain an edge indefinitely, why not? When should I expect to see a decline in the edge, if that is your answer? Obviously this is assuming the strop won't receive physical damage, and eventually the chromium oxide may become ineffective, but at that point I could just spend the 20$ for another filly, or just buy some more chromium oxide.

For the record, I'm not entirely against finishing hones. I just hate the idea of buying a lapping stone specifically for a cheap Chinese 12k. Is there anyone online I could purchase a pre-lapped Chinese 12k?

From one newbie to another, I'm not sure how to advise you but I can say that in my experience the 12k was a nice step after the 8k, and the chromium oxide was a nice step up after the 12k.
What I can't tell you is if I couldn't get the same thing just going from the 8k to the chromium oxide. I can tell you that with a 4k/8k you shouldn't ever reach a time where you can't bring the edge back to shave ready if you're happy with the way things are unless something happens to ruin the bevel on the razor.

 

[gugi]

no it's not necessary, if you like the edge the way it is, you're all set.
if your routine stops working just go back to the norton and you're good again.

i have not experimented very much with pastes, but there is at least one senior member who has and according to him there is no reason to need a hone as long as your stropping on the pasted strop is good.
of course, somebody must run the test for few decades before we consider it conclusive.

as far as lapped chinese i think probably from another member is your best option. i've been considering to sell mine since i have plenty of nice finishing hones which are at least as fine and are faster, but for some reason whenever i'm about to do it i always think i should try it a bit longer so that i know it better.

 

[thanks]

From one newbie to another, I'm not sure how to advise you but I can say that in my experience the 12k was a nice step after the 8k, and the chromium oxide was a nice step up after the 12k.
What I can't tell you is if I couldn't get the same thing just going from the 8k to the chromium oxide. I can tell you that with a 4k/8k you shouldn't ever reach a time where you can't bring the edge back to shave ready if you're happy with the way things are unless something happens to ruin the bevel on the razor.

The edge I'm getting now is pretty smooth, and scary sharp- but I guess it could always be smoother. It seems that with every passing week everything involving straights and maintaining them gets easier and easier. I'm only spending 15 minutes on two passes now.

Maybe I'm just trying to justify HAD?

no it's not necessary, if you like the edge the way it is, you're all set.
if your routine stops working just go back to the norton and you're good again.

i have not experimented very much with pastes, but there is at least one senior member who has and according to him there is no reason to need a hone as long as your stropping on the pasted strop is good.
of course, somebody must run the test for few decades before we consider it conclusive.

as far as lapped chinese i think probably from another member is your best option. i've been considering to sell mine since i have plenty of nice finishing hones which are at least as fine and are faster, but for some reason whenever i'm about to do it i always think i should try it a bit longer so that i know it better.

After spending so much time reading and researching before I took my own plunge, and all the mythos/misinformation/horror stories surrounding straights and maintaining them- I'm amazed now at how easy and simple everything can be in the world of straight razor shaving.

What's your favorite finishing hone so far?

 

[mparker762]

You can do just fine with just the N48 stone and a linen/leather strop. It wasn't so long ago that this was the standard setup that nearly everybody on these boards used - worn-out coticules were $300+ on ebay when you could find them, eschers were mysterious and exotic, Shaptons mysterious and exotic and $600+, and nakayamas were unheard-of. That said, if you're using chromium oxide on your strop then that *is* your finishing hone. It's just a lot cheaper than a Shapton 30k or Nakayama. I've got both the S30k and Nakayama, and I'll generally reach for a pasted strop instead of one of these; the strop is just so much faster to use.

AFAIK you can keep a razor going indefinitely with just chrome oxide or some other medium-to-fine abrasive on a strop. The reason there's no definitive answer on this is because "indefinitely" can be a very long time indeed, and there are enough other viable options that there just aren't a lot of old-timers guys that are using that exact setup. That and it's tough to use the same razor every day for the 5-10 yrs you would need to do a real test of this theory. But we have had one member go over four years with one razor without hitting a stone, so the upper limit for how long you can go would seem to be reasonably high.

Personally I believe that the setup that gives a beginner the best chance of successfully maintaining an edge is a pasted strop with some mild abrasive on it. It's easy to use, inexpensive, and extremely effective. Hones require too much skill to be recommended for a beginner, and the expense tends to be very offputting when you're just getting started. That the pasted hone works just as well for experienced shavers is a bonus. The major problem is one of perception: hones are viewed as more pure or hard-core, and pasted strops tended to be looked down on as some mild form of "cheating".

 

[Bertilak]

Perhaps I didn't give my CrO2 hanging strop enough of a chance, but I was not getting good shaves until I went to a coticule, followed up with CrO2.

I'm pretty sure there is nothing magical about the Coticule itself, but I have no other hone in the 8K (or finer) range. Well I do have a Swaty but haven't tried to use it yet. Maybe it will do as well as the Coticule.

 

[jkh]

Excellent thread.

To the OP (thanks) how many passes on your CrOx strop are you doing each week?

 

[thanks]

I'm not averse to honing, so I guess it is good to know that I'll always have options. I just am really glad to hear all this about my CrOx setup as I find it to be very easy and the results are fantastic.

Excellent thread.

To the OP (thanks) how many passes on your CrOx strop are you doing each week?

It depends, but I usually do at least 20, no more than 30. More than 30 tends to put a delicate edge that'll wear down within a couple days I've found. That could just be my razor though (Dovo Special 5/8.) The way I decide how many is that I've found the razor starts to sing a little, and I can feel a certain drag to it that kind of let's me know when it's done. Maybe that's all in my head, but that point always comes between 20 and 30 laps. After the CrOx I'll strop on smooth leather 40 times. If I do all of this right after a shave, I'll give the blade another 5 laps on the strop the next day right before I shave.

 

[jkh]

I'm not averse to honing, so I guess it is good to know that I'll always have options. I just am really glad to hear all this about my CrOx setup as I find it to be very easy and the results are fantastic.



It depends, but I usually do at least 20, no more than 30. More than 30 tends to put a delicate edge that'll wear down within a couple days I've found. That could just be my razor though (Dovo Special 5/8.) The way I decide how many is that I've found the razor starts to sing a little, and I can feel a certain drag to it that kind of let's me know when it's done. Maybe that's all in my head, but that point always comes between 20 and 30 laps. After the CrOx I'll strop on smooth leather 40 times. If I do all of this right after a shave, I'll give the blade another 5 laps on the strop the next day right before I shave.

Thanks, thanks (sorry I couldn't resist)

 

[huracan]

Indeed a nice thread. So far I have kept my 3 razors going with just a plain (non-pasted) TM linen and latigo strop. I will be adding white paste to the linen soon.
The practice strop I got that is no longer in use will eventually get a coating of TI diamond paste and placed on a home made paddle.
By the way, 2 of the blades I have I got shave ready from the sellers, the other one I revived using a set of diamond sheets I got from Seraphim.
I'm hoping not to need a hone for a long time.

 

[scottish steve]

Good info guys, thanks. I too was avoiding paste as some sort of indefine-able sin, but will get some soon.

 

[Chimensch]

By the way, 2 of the blades I have I got shave ready from the sellers, the other one I revived using a set of diamond sheets I got from Seraphim.
I'm hoping not to need a hone for a long time.

If you're using diamond sheets, you're already honing, a stone is just a little more durable.

 

[ambrose]

Back strokes with abrasives will lead to round aka dull edges. Polishing stones forward stokes polish and sharpen the edge. If it works for you then dont change a thing.

 

[Chimensch]

Back strokes with abrasives will lead to round aka dull edges. Polishing stones forward stokes polish and sharpen the edge. If it works for you then dont change a thing.

You do forward strokes on diamond sheets, just like a hone. There's no functional difference. I meant that a stone is more durable than a diamond sheet; the edge on the razor is the same.

 

[huracan]

If you're using diamond sheets, you're already honing, a stone is just a little more durable.

Yes, I know. I could have been more clear too.

The two razors I received shave ready have not seen the diamond sheets at all. I'm hoping that by following mparker's recommendations here and in other threads I can keep the shave readiness going for a while using just the strops.

I obtained the DLS as part of a purchase, and I've been told they don't last, but they are there and they are hones and they did work for me to revive my 3rd razor (it was sharp, just not shave ready for me)

This does bring up a good point though, I was speaking purely from personal experience: I have not had to sharpen a dull razor and I may not be getting multiple blades to the extent that I find the investment in a stone justifiable.

 

[ambrose]

I was referring to the initial thread starter "thanks", if stropping on chrome oxide eventually stop working.

+1 on diamond lapping film, a great substitute of hones.

I personally prefer the edge off of aluminum oxide at .3 micron much more smooth.

 

[thanks]

I was referring to the initial thread starter "thanks", if stropping on chrome oxide eventually stop working.

+1 on diamond lapping film, a great substitute of hones.

I personally prefer the edge off of aluminum oxide at .3 micron much more smooth.

Ah, so you are saying that eventually it will stop working and round my edge at which point I will have to hone?

 

[ambrose]

yup, or like they guys recommend some lapping film.

 

[Alacrity59]

I'm confused . . . there are these things from long ago called barber hones . . . by all accounts they are coarser than . . . er say a popular finishing hone we talk about here at 12K . . . Somehow the barber found a good edge with the barber hone and a strop . . . with no green paste. . . Now here we are . . . myself included . . . are trying to do better and we have access to better stuff . . . are we doing better? (I straight shave once in a while . . . and darn it is not quite as good as what I do with a DE hell . . . I will still try)

 

[SavantStrike]

I'm confused . . . there are these things from long ago called barber hones . . . by all accounts they are coarser than . . . er say a popular finishing hone we talk about here at 12K . . . Somehow the barber found a good edge with the barber hone and a strop . . . with no green paste. . . Now here we are . . . myself included . . . are trying to do better and we have access to better stuff . . . are we doing better? (I straight shave once in a while . . . and darn it is not quite as good as what I do with a DE hell . . . I will still try)

It's my understanding some barbers did use pastes. I've been using a straight exclusively for a month and a half now or something like that and the results are slow in the coming. Comparing it to a DE isn't fair, straights take 99 times more work. The payoff is worth it though. My stubble has never been so soft when it grows in... and dangit I've never had so much fun . There's something satisfying about taking razor sharp steel to one's face .

You guys are killing me with this lapping film thing though. Right now I'm going from a 12k to chromium oxide. I'm starting to wonder if some super fine lapping film might not be a nice add on (and cheap I may add)!

The trouble is I hone my razors with tape, and I really don't feel like wasting electrical tape on a touch up job... Whew... lapping film AD avoided, I'll stick with the chromium oxide.