New to straights, but not blades. What to start with?

[TheKman]

Hi Folks,

Being fairly new around here, please excuse my etiquette if this thread is misplaced. Essentially, I'm trying to work out where I should start when it comes to selecting a straight razor.

I should start by telling you what I know, and what I don't know. Working with a wide selection of cabinet makers tools I'm very familiar with edge tool steels and there properties as well as having all of the equipment to maintain them. Dry and wet grinders, lapping plates, grinding stones, honing stones, and one home made strop just for paring chisels. Of course, the basic use and care of edge tools applies too, oiling, drying, dust exposure, etc. I've even made a few knives using a home made gas forge. Things I don't know include specific honing and stropping techniques for straights - which I'm sure YouTube can remedy - and how to actually use one.

As a starting point I don't really care if it's stainless or carbon steel, though I expect a carbon steel razor to be easier to maintain and less expensive? I should also point out that I'm well beyond starting with a cheap razor. I'm of the "You'll remember the quality of the tool long after you've forgotten the cost" school of value.

With all of that said, there's a very wide array of new and used razors available at all sorts of price ranges. I'm confident I can make any razor shave well, but I couldn't identify a quality straight razor if my life depended on it. I'm not even confident I could identify the qualities that make a good straight razor!

So, where to start?

 

[Dick peck]

Griffith shaving goods,whipped dog,or west coast shaving. I believe there is great chance for you to get whatever you need. Personally whipped dog is a good place for communication. Old and new razors. I'm sure you will be eager to experiment with edge maintenance so maybe a new razor and a not too expensive vintage restored so you have a crash test dummy to mess up. As you learn. As far as blade quality I've used about 30 different razors and they were OK to great. If money is not an issue I think one old and one new razor will be a cool start so you can decide your preference. I'm frugal so I tend to the vintage for price . Good luck

 

[sfeile]

I came from a lot of knife and tool sharpening experience also. I still butchered my first attempts at honing a straight razor. A lot of my use knives I would stop at 800 to 1K grits and they would "shave" arm hair. A straight you generally start at 1K to 3K grits to set the bevel.
Also the edge is so thin the amount of pressure needed to remove/polish the steel is almost none compared to what you use on any knife or tool.

Not trying to discourage you, but it is a bit of a different animal. I would recommend a cheaper vintage to learn to hone on.
Larry at whippeddog.com and some of our other vendors in the vendor section have some nice razors at decent prices. There should be something there that catches your eye to get started with.
And if you are going to try honing, I would suggest a sight unseen, or sight unseen flawed from whipped dog to practice on. They will come shave ready so you have a baseline to see where you should end up. I really butchered a nice vintage Henkles trying to learn, so it can be beneficial to start with at least one cheaper razor.

 

[Lmarkow]

Hi, and welcome. I came to straight shaving with none of the knife or edge knowledge you have, so take this with a bit of salt. Get two razors. The first should be a Boker Silver Steel. It is a super, hollow ground razors that is easy to shave with and easy to hone. But don't hone it. Send it to Doc226 to hone for you so you'll have a benchmark to shave with. The second razor can be a whippeddog, inexpensive razor you can shave with too, but will be cheaper to learn to hone with. Good luck!

 

[Acmemfg]

Whipped Dog gets a super amount of love here. Most probably rightfully so.
However if you are not hesitant to spend a few bucks for a new razor that you can:
1. Pick up a Brian Brown. Possibly best bang for the buck and a razor you can hand down to your grandkid(s)
2. Right now Royal Shave has the deal of the week on Dovo Astrale razors. $69.95. Most probably not shave ready but if you know your stones..no worries.
Go with what you think best. I can't get behind a very used razor, regardless of how cheap or shave ready is. I don't mind second hand but aestetics count for me and many of the sight unseen or similar razors offered by Whipped Dog just ain't worth the bargain basement price. I'm one of those "get what you pay for...go big or go home" guys.
Choose wisely.

 

[DE is the new black]

I'm in the same boat ... temped to get into single blades and have stones to 12,000 for my japanese knives.
I have a preference for stainless razor though, thought get a gold dollar (carbon) to practice honing on and another more upmarket to shave with.
Being in Australia sort of limits options due to postage rates...... so if it's chinese razor it would be straight from china, and I've looked at used Dovo from Europe. Ebay now pushes their global shipping program so postage is about US$26 to Australia from USA on Ebay..... gold dollar from china to Australia Ebay is US$9 inc postage.

 

[Slash McCoy]

Even though you know a lot about edged tools, a razor is still a cat of a different stripe. I most strongly recommend that you learn the art of straight shaving with a shave ready blade, or better yet, two of them, before trying to hone. No saying it is impossible to take a dull razor and learn to hone it and shave with it at the same time... it can be done. I did it. Took about 3 years, pre internet lol. I always felt and looked like I had spent the morning sorting my wildcat collection. I rather like what Larry at Whipped Dog has been doing for so many years now, which is providing shave ready vintage razors, accessories, and advice to newbies at a price that is quite bearable. The sight unseen razors are a mixed random bag, yeah, but all are going to be well known and respected brands, and quite usable even though some will be over 100 years old. Some are beautiful. Some are not so beautiful. All will shave.

There are a couple of guys around here selling shave ready Gold Dollar razors for even less than Larry's vintage Whipped Dogs. They will get the job done. The major functional shortcoming of a GD razor that has not been heavily modified, is the bevel angle is about 3 degrees fatter than what it ideal. This shortcoming can be a blessing, though, for a newbie. The razor will be much less likely to cut your skin than a more sporty edge, and with two or three passes it will still be capable of delivering a decent shave if it was well honed. DO NOT buy a razor on ebay that the seller claims to be shave ready, without recommendation from a member here. Most sellers dont shave with a straight razor and have absolutely no idea what makes a shave ready razor.

Another option is a higher quality straight razor from a reputable vendor such as Jarrod of TheSuperiorShave.com. All his razors are shipped shave ready. My advice is to see if he has any Dovo Bismarck or other Bismarck style razors in stock. It is hands down the most ergonomic modern razor. Beware the entry level Dovo "Best" razors. They are not.

A good new razor and a vintage razor makes a good beginner rotation. Add a Gold Dollar to the mix and your shave odyssey is getting of to a banging start. The two or three blades should keep you shaving long enough to get the basics down. Then when the first one gets dull, either send it out for honing, or try to hone it yourself. There is a subforum here dedicated to the art of making razors sharp, where you can get plenty of help. With your background you should be up and running pretty quick.

Also you might want to try THIS. You might not master it fully right away but it is a great way to keep an already sharp razor sharp forever. Learn how to strop on a hanging leather strop, first, though, and hold off on the balsa for a couple of days. You will slice it to ribbons if you don't master the stroke and the turn of stropping on leather first.

And that reminds me, you need a strop. A Whipped Dog Poor Man's Strop Kit will get your foot in the door for cheap, and if you hack it to bits while learning, no biggie. You didn't filet a $150 strop. Upgrade later when you are more confident and skilled. DON'T use a belt. Not wide enough, not flat enough. Not the right draw. You COULD use a bench strop or paddle strop but I most highly recommend a hanging strop for razors. One that is not scored by knife points or plane knife corners. A strop only for razors, IOW.

Youtube is your friend. Lots of great shaving and stropping videos out there. Honing videos, too.

 

[DE is the new black]

Even though you know a lot about edged tools, a razor is still a cat of a different stripe. I most strongly recommend that you learn the art of straight shaving with a shave ready blade, or better yet, two of them, before trying to hone. No saying it is impossible to take a dull razor and ............"

I have a leather stropping board for my kitchen knives .... for the mirror edge I can't get if I send them out ........ but yes, razors and a strop belt will be a whole new adventure.....Australian market is more limited then in the USA for razors so yes, we have less then 10% the population of the USA.. you tube will be my friend ........

 

[TheKman]

Well, that took quite a bit if digesting. Considerably more info that I was expecting, kudos folks! Please excuse the slow reply, I had to assemble a few hundred million synaptic connections.

Firstly, I appreciate the sage words regarding cautionary approach to honing and stropping. However, despite the differences between edge tools for timber and for the face, an edge is just an edge and all of the same principals apply. Slow, measured, patient attention to detail is the only way to achieve a good edge. That being said, I will spend considerable time watching the masters of YouTube and following their lead on the exact techniques used.

Regarding honing stones, when sharpening knives I never bother to go beyond 5K dry. For plane blades and most chisels I wet hone on the 5K then polish on a hardwood board with CrOx. However, it's clear this won't work for a straight razor, a finer wet hone is needed. Already owning a few Shapton stones I'm pretty comfortable with them, would I be better served with a Shapton 16K Glass Stone, or something else?

I'm hearing a lot of the same advice regarding razor choices for a beginner; get two or three, one that works, one you can play with and optionally one to graduate to. 'Twould be folly to ignore this many people suggesting the same thing, clearly. Gold Dollar seems like the obvious choice for practice, and I can see the value is one of the Whipped Dog razors as a working user, so pulling the trigger on these is an inexpensive way to start. Where i'm very confused is the graduation present. There are a great number of artisan makers and a lot of recommendations for a couple of Dovo models, in particular the Dovo Prima Klang and the Dovo Bismarck. Would I be right in thinking that the Bismarck might be a little easier to hone due to the expansive spine and absent heel? Beyond that I should expect them to perform similarly?

Finally, strop choice. I've skills in leather work, so I'll be making one not buying one, the real question for me seems to be hard strop versus hanging strop. When maintaining the edge of a narrow angle (~16 degrees) paring chisel stropping is done on the bevel only and always with a hard strop. This makes a great deal of sense to me because you're working hard to ensure that the edge isn't rounded off as far as possible and that the flat side stays flat. Of course, leather has a little give but you can apply some pressure without fear of rounding it to much. However, lots of people successfully hand strop straight razors with a hanging strop - one handed - and get a good result! Maybe my background is going to get in the way of this experience, but this seems like and awfully imprecise way to sharpen a very narrow edge! Rounding seems like an almost inevitable outcome to me.

Given that hanging strops are intended to remove material, not just burnish, is it not ideal to use a hard strop to precisely control rounding? My favourite strop is of veg tanned cow hide which has been soaked in Linseed oil and topped with a fine diamond paste (I no longer remember the grit size, the label is long faded). I imagine rolling the razor over the spine between strokes, using a second hand to maintain exact pressure, slow strokes to prevent edge heat build up... all of the same techniques used to sharpen knives. Some of the videos I've seen are almost careless by comparison! What say you, am I missing something?

Many thanks for your help everyone, I fear the rabbit hole is now fast approaching! $)

 

[TheKman]

The two Dovo's and a few Boker Silver Steel models are all available locally, is a Boker SS comparable?

 

[sfeile]

The theory of honing a razor VS sharpening a tool is the same. You are progressively removing metal to make a finer edge. It's the practice that is different.
A wood chisel or plane blade isn't going to flex on you if you were to stand on it.
A half hollow straight razor blade can flex if you rest your fingers on it. Some full hollow razors, a few ounces of pressure can flex them.

You are on the right track in watching some videos and proceeding with caution. The only downside I could say about getting a gold dollar to practice with is that they aren't usually very well ground. The heel stabilizer needs at least reduced for the heel of the blade to consistently hit the stone, and they are often warped.
Not saying they can't be made to shave well, but if you are just learning, you may just be chasing your tail with some issue in the razor that you aren't aware of.
On the other hand, if you can work down the stabilizer and get a straight one, there is a lot of metal there to practice with.

For stones, usually around a 1k for bevel setting. Followed by a progression up to whatever you want to stop at.
Personally, I have 2K, 5K, and 8K Shapton pro stones, then I use a Japanese natural stone to finish on.
I would say the 16K Shapton would do very well for you if that's what you chose.

As far as stropping, there again, you are looking at a whole different practice. You don't want any CROX or pastes on your everyday strop. Here again, you should be using no pressure on the blade. You don't want a second hand on it to help control it because that can actually be too much pressure and can cause you to roll the edge.

Stropping a straight razor IS actually just burnishing/re-aligning/cleaning the edge. You aren't trying to remove any extra material from the blade. As far as hanging or paddle (board), that would be up to your individual tastes. I personally like a hanging strop.

I think all of my razors are actually vintage. I've not owned a Boker or Dovo, so I can't comment on either from experience.

 

[TheKman]

And there it is, that piece of info that changes everything; I had no idea they were so thin that flex would be a concern. That little nugget right there destroys my confidence.

 

[Slash McCoy]

Well, that took quite a bit if digesting. Considerably more info that I was expecting, kudos folks! Please excuse the slow reply, I had to assemble a few hundred million synaptic connections.

Firstly, I appreciate the sage words regarding cautionary approach to honing and stropping. However, despite the differences between edge tools for timber and for the face, an edge is just an edge and all of the same principals apply. Slow, measured, patient attention to detail is the only way to achieve a good edge. That being said, I will spend considerable time watching the masters of YouTube and following their lead on the exact techniques used.

Regarding honing stones, when sharpening knives I never bother to go beyond 5K dry. For plane blades and most chisels I wet hone on the 5K then polish on a hardwood board with CrOx. However, it's clear this won't work for a straight razor, a finer wet hone is needed. Already owning a few Shapton stones I'm pretty comfortable with them, would I be better served with a Shapton 16K Glass Stone, or something else?

Generally, a 12k finisher is regarded as sufficient. A typical synthetic progression is 1k bevel setter, (325 to 600 for edge repair if needed) 4k (3k or 5k in some brands) then 8k (or a 6k King if you are really going low bidget) and then a 12k. Best practice is to make sure you can shave off your 8k edge before trying to go finer, because the finisher won't improve a weak 8k edge without many thousands of correctly done laps. Ditto 16k or higher. Also, consider lapping film, especially for just starting, so you don't have to buy any finer stones right out the gate. Film gives dead consistent results when used in accordance with the famous Lapping Film thread.

I'm hearing a lot of the same advice regarding razor choices for a beginner; get two or three, one that works, one you can play with and optionally one to graduate to. 'Twould be folly to ignore this many people suggesting the same thing, clearly. Gold Dollar seems like the obvious choice for practice, and I can see the value is one of the Whipped Dog razors as a working user, so pulling the trigger on these is an inexpensive way to start. Where i'm very confused is the graduation present. There are a great number of artisan makers and a lot of recommendations for a couple of Dovo models, in particular the Dovo Prima Klang and the Dovo Bismarck. Would I be right in thinking that the Bismarck might be a little easier to hone due to the expansive spine and absent heel? Beyond that I should expect them to perform similarly?

The Prima Klang is a very nice razor, full hollow, almost a "singing razor". Takes a very skilled grinder to turn them out. Dovo lately has had problems training and retaining skilled master grinders. So on occasion, one of these razors might not be all it could be. The Bismarck and similar patterns are indeed easy to hone and strop, and fit the shaver's hand nicely. There are other brands that have similar razors. One of my favorites is a pre-Dovo Bismarck, from before Dovo bought the Bismarck brand, and another is a Dovo Bismarck. The razors that I make are all inspired by the Bismarck pattern, which comes quite naturally when you start with a GD66 and remove the heel first thing. The Bismarck has a little more meat on it than the Klang and some guys with heavier beards prefer a heavier blade.

Finally, strop choice. I've skills in leather work, so I'll be making one not buying one, the real question for me seems to be hard strop versus hanging strop. When maintaining the edge of a narrow angle (~16 degrees) paring chisel stropping is done on the bevel only and always with a hard strop. This makes a great deal of sense to me because you're working hard to ensure that the edge isn't rounded off as far as possible and that the flat side stays flat. Of course, leather has a little give but you can apply some pressure without fear of rounding it to much. However, lots of people successfully hand strop straight razors with a hanging strop - one handed - and get a good result! Maybe my background is going to get in the way of this experience, but this seems like and awfully imprecise way to sharpen a very narrow edge! Rounding seems like an almost inevitable outcome to me.

Imprecision is probably part of the magic that makes a hanging strop improve the edge so well. A good razor edge appears to have a perfectly flat bevel and geometrically exact apex, but in reality there is a very very slight convexity, and a perfectly flat and rigid strop will not do a good job of straightening and burnishing the apex. A fixed strop is better for use with abrasives. A hanging strop, unpasted, is your actual final strop before shaving.

Given that hanging strops are intended to remove material, not just burnish, is it not ideal to use a hard strop to precisely control rounding? My favourite strop is of veg tanned cow hide which has been soaked in Linseed oil and topped with a fine diamond paste (I no longer remember the grit size, the label is long faded). I imagine rolling the razor over the spine between strokes, using a second hand to maintain exact pressure, slow strokes to prevent edge heat build up... all of the same techniques used to sharpen knives. Some of the videos I've seen are almost careless by comparison! What say you, am I missing something?

Yes, you are. A hanging strop does NOT remove any steel. No abrasives are used on a hanging strop. True about using a hard strop to prevent rounding, WHEN material is removed, through the use of abrasives. Leather is not best for this, though. Did you read the pasted balsa strop thread? Follow that method exactly, and I guarantee it will work. Freestyle it and I wouldn't bet on the results, no. Pasted stropping has gotten a bad name over the years precisely because everybody was DOING IT ALL WRONG.

Many thanks for your help everyone, I fear the rabbit hole is now fast approaching! $)

 

[Slash McCoy]

The two Dovo's and a few Boker Silver Steel models are all available locally, is a Boker SS comparable?

Yes, IMHO. You might also like the Boker King Cutter. Boker vintage razors are excellent, too. Maybe the Bismarck is a slightly better value but it is important to have a razor whose appearance inspires confidence, too.

 

[sfeile]

And there it is, that piece of info that changes everything; I had no idea they were so thin that flex would be a concern. That little nugget right there destroys my confidence.

Don't let it destroy you, let it make you better informed.
Some of us learned it the hard way. I went into honing a straight before youtube was big and long before I found this site. I destroyed a nice Henkles because I knew how to sharpen a knife. I had no idea they would flex like they do and the grit difference required.

You already have a strong sharpening base. You have the basics and the understanding of your sharpening equipment. Now, you are also armed with that little tidbit of info that eludes many a new honer.

It is a great and rewarding thing to learn, especially if you already enjoy sharpening knives and tools. Not much more satisfying in the sharpening world than creating an edge that makes a scalpel look like a butter-knife.

 

[TheKman]

I'm wondering if I should start with a half hollow like the Astrale recommended earlier.

 

[sfeile]

I like half hollow grinds. They have a nice thin edge. Great to shave with and to hone.

They take an edge without a lot of "heavy grinding", but don't flex as much as a full hollow would. Usually hone up very quickly and quite sharp.

 

[Acmemfg]

Yes, IMHO. You might also like the Boker King Cutter. Boker vintage razors are excellent, too. Maybe the Bismarck is a slightly better value but it is important to have a razor whose appearance inspires confidence, too.

The one issue I have with the Whipped Dog razor is that so often they are just not nice looking. They are tatty and really worn in appearance. Now I realize that does not make a difference per se in how it shaves, but then waxing your car doesn't make it run better either, so why bother? Because aestetics do matter to many.
I'd say you ain't gonna beat the deal on that Astrale. I'm a full hollow fan, but at that price, I even bought one.

 

[TheKman]

After making another few hundred million synaptic connections I've drawn some conclusions:

a) Adding another honing medium needs to also add to the cabinet makers repertoire. if 12K is considered a good end point for honing the I'll add a Shapton 12K professional. Between the DMT diamond plates, 2K and 5K I'm sure I can accomplish anything.

b) Understanding that the hollows make a blade flexible is really just one more item to integrate into the skills I already have. I've historically done my best work when I jump in the deep end with both feet, so I think I'll just dive in and acquire a Bismarck.

c) Understanding the stropping process a little better I can see the need for two; one bench strop for refreshing and one hanging strop for the bathroom. I have more than enough leather in the shed for both already. While I can see how the Balsa process can work - or any soft timber for that matter - I already have confidence in using a hard leather strop the same way. One variable at a time.

You've all been extremely helpful and I'm grateful for the re-education. Slash and sfeile especially.

Very last question, has anyone used the DMT DiaSpray? I need to replace the diamond pastes and noticed the DMT are making some now... and 0.5 micron spray too. Could work well as a last honing/refresh step?

 

[TheKman]

Ordered the Shapton 12k and a Dovo La Forme! Immediately fell for the look and discovered it's the same blade as the Bismarck, minus the embellishments, which I didn't like anyway. I like 'em simple and curvy... read into that what you will.