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New to honing. If you could start over which stones would you buy?

If your just starting I would start with the Naniwa stones. 3k for bevel setting, 8k & 12k. Once you get the hang of honing you can consider the JNats or Cotis. They take a lot more experience with before you start to get a good shaving results. Also, they are much more expensive and can be hit or mix. If you want to go one stone above the 12 k you can pick up a Ark finishing stone.
Thanks for the insight.
 
I want to start honing my straights I will buy 4 or 5 learning straights. I see a lot of people with stones they no longer use or don’t like. If you could start again what would you buy for a complete set. I would like to do it right the first time. I want quality not cheap, yet I don’t want to end up with stuff I won’t use. I want to do it right the first time. I don’t have cheap straights and I don’t want cheap stones. Please help me learn and understand. Thank you :001_unsur

With these four items, I can take any nicked blade, ... wait a minute,
I just recently needed all four to hone a Russian Rocket.
It had never been sharpened. There was no bevel face.
The steel was very tough. Most razors I can set a bevel
with the Norton, but with this one I had to do it with diamonds.
The strop is horse shell.

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I’d buy an Atoma 400 (for lapping) a Shapton pro 1500, Shapton pro 5,000, Shapton pro 8,000, a good hard Coticule, a good razor grade Jnat, and a translucent or black ark. I can do pretty much anything I want with that setup.

^this.

It’s seriously tough to beat a Good Coticule as a gentle edge finisher, or as the best midrange stone for an Ark/JNAT finisher. I’d say it’s impossible to beat a Coticule for ease and speed touching up a razor that’s just losing its edge.

Drizzle water, half laps one way, drizzle, half laps the other way, drizzle, half laps, drizzle, half laps, running water, X strokes, strop, shave. Definitely talking a single digit number of minutes. If you can’t get the edge quite as keen as you want on the first few tries, no sweat! Toss in an Ark finisher for one more set of x strokes and you’re there, and still probably just over 10 minutes total time. You’ll figure the coti out eventually and then you have two stellar finishers plus the best upper midrange natural.
8450A878-E6A4-4892-9809-AEAA2D2BEE23.jpeg
 
^this.

It’s seriously tough to beat a Good Coticule as a gentle edge finisher, or as the best midrange stone for an Ark/JNAT finisher. I’d say it’s impossible to beat a Coticule for ease and speed touching up a razor that’s just losing its edge.

Drizzle water, half laps one way, drizzle, half laps the other way, drizzle, half laps, drizzle, half laps, running water, X strokes, strop, shave. Definitely talking a single digit number of minutes. If you can’t get the edge quite as keen as you want on the first few tries, no sweat! Toss in an Ark finisher for one more set of x strokes and you’re there, and still probably just over 10 minutes total time. You’ll figure the coti out eventually and then you have two stellar finishers plus the best upper midrange natural.
View attachment 985893
Useful post. Thank you.:)
 

Chan Eil Whiskers

Fumbling about.
^this.

It’s seriously tough to beat a Good Coticule as a gentle edge finisher, or as the best midrange stone for an Ark/JNAT finisher. I’d say it’s impossible to beat a Coticule for ease and speed touching up a razor that’s just losing its edge.

Drizzle water, half laps one way, drizzle, half laps the other way, drizzle, half laps, drizzle, half laps, running water, X strokes, strop, shave. Definitely talking a single digit number of minutes. If you can’t get the edge quite as keen as you want on the first few tries, no sweat! Toss in an Ark finisher for one more set of x strokes and you’re there, and still probably just over 10 minutes total time. You’ll figure the coti out eventually and then you have two stellar finishers plus the best upper midrange natural.
View attachment 985893

If I were buying just one stone it might be a coticule like the one I have.

However, to answer the OP's question here's what I'd buy were I starting over knowing what I know now and trying to buy as few stones as possible.
  • A Chosera 1K for taking out chips and setting the bevel on a wonky razor.
  • A Double Convex Ark for everything else.
Keep in mind I'm only 210 shaves into the straight razor, and I've not used jnats, but I have used a fair number of synthetics, two good flat Arkansas stones, and a Zulu Grey. All are good, but I could get by, have more money in my pocket, and get all my razors sharp with just that little kit.

My third stone would be the coticule.

A 2.5 inch wide black convex ark. A bottle of ballistol. Atoma 1200

Simple and good answer.

My DCA is 8x3, but a smaller DCA would be fine. Mine is the Black Translucent. Were I buying one now I'd probably get the White Translucent DCA. I doubt the shave would be different, but I like the feel and look of white translucents over black. I've not used the Atoma 1200, but some kind of chip removing bevel stone is necessary I think. I've also not used the softest of the Arks, but they might work for that. Still, the Chosera 1K is the stone I know so I'll stick with it as a recommendation for the chips and wonky blade repairs.

Happy shaves,

Jim
 
^this.

It’s seriously tough to beat a Good Coticule as a gentle edge finisher, or as the best midrange stone for an Ark/JNAT finisher. I’d say it’s impossible to beat a Coticule for ease and speed touching up a razor that’s just losing its edge.

Drizzle water, half laps one way, drizzle, half laps the other way, drizzle, half laps, drizzle, half laps, running water, X strokes, strop, shave. Definitely talking a single digit number of minutes. If you can’t get the edge quite as keen as you want on the first few tries, no sweat! Toss in an Ark finisher for one more set of x strokes and you’re there, and still probably just over 10 minutes total time. You’ll figure the coti out eventually and then you have two stellar finishers plus the best upper midrange natural.
View attachment 985893
Totally agree here. The coti will most often give you a nice shaving finish. And like he said if you can’t get it perfect on the coti Laps on the ark will help. A jnat is fun to use too but can be a bit more complicated.
 
I would probably just have 3 stones maybe even just 2 and that would be a 1k, 4K and JNAT with a few asano naguras, I like a 1k for chip removal and edge correction but it really leaves the edge rough so I try to always start at the 4K level
 
I want to start honing my straights I will buy 4 or 5 learning straights. I see a lot of people with stones they no longer use or don’t like. If you could start again what would you buy for a complete set. I would like to do it right the first time. I want quality not cheap, yet I don’t want to end up with stuff I won’t use. I want to do it right the first time. I don’t have cheap straights and I don’t want cheap stones. Please help me learn and understand. Thank you :001_unsur

I also recently started with honing and started with Naniwa SP-stones(Naniwa Specialty Stone), and a Suehiro Gokumyo 20k stone.
I have a the following from Naniwa:
3k,5k,8k,12k
And I have a 20k stone(Suehiro Gokumyo 20k)

Also looking to add a 1k to my collection to be able to set bevels ;).

I think Naniwa stones are best for beginner to learn honing.
 
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If I were just starting out I would buy Naniwa 1,3,5,8.
You could omit the 5k if you wanted.
You can get a decent shave from an 8k if you learn. After you are shaving comfortably with that you can get a final synthetic or natural.
Synthetic - the 20k Gokumyo is a great stone but pricey.
A Naniwa 12k is a decent hone for a little less.
The 8k synthetic is a perfect jumping point in either direction
Unless you get very lucky with a Coticule the shave will not be improved much from the 8k.
For natural, getting a decent natural finisher from a reputable seller would be the way to go.
Any remotely decent finisher can take the razor from 8k to fruition.
 
I don’t buy into the whole “finding the right Coticule” view so much. I believe you can definitely find a coarser than average coti or the wrong Coti, but I think the chances of finding the “right” coti are MUCH higher than you’d think reading online.

Consider I’ve only bought 5 total and currently have 3. Out of those all 5 would finish to a full shave ready edge(and I don’t have light standards for that) and only 1 of 5 is any special type or layer. All 5 were basically random smaller sizes bought for cheap at auction. I kept 3 because 1 is lightning fast on water and narrow which can be useful, one is slow/fine which is obviously useful, and one is a les lat hybrid layer bout. The two I sold were just because they were more odd sizes and slower finishing on water with less feedback, but they could always get there.

If it were as hard to find the right Coti as people want you to believe there’s no way I’d buy 5 basically at random and end up with 5 winners, or even 3 winners for that matter.

Also when(not if) you buy other finishers, a fast Coti is arguably the best natural midrange stone even if you decide to never finish on it again.

I’m saying all this as a predominantly Ark/JNAT guy. Even as much as I love JNATs, IMO there’s no more flexible natural stone that the Coti if you’re wanting to start out simple or stay simple in your setup.
 
I don’t buy into the whole “finding the right Coticule” view so much. I believe you can definitely find a coarser than average coti or the wrong Coti, but I think the chances of finding the “right” coti are MUCH higher than you’d think reading online.

Consider I’ve only bought 5 total and currently have 3. Out of those all 5 would finish to a full shave ready edge(and I don’t have light standards for that) and only 1 of 5 is any special type or layer. All 5 were basically random smaller sizes bought for cheap at auction. I kept 3 because 1 is lightning fast on water and narrow which can be useful, one is slow/fine which is obviously useful, and one is a les lat hybrid layer bout. The two I sold were just because they were more odd sizes and slower finishing on water with less feedback, but they could always get there.

If it were as hard to find the right Coti as people want you to believe there’s no way I’d buy 5 basically at random and end up with 5 winners, or even 3 winners for that matter.

Also when(not if) you buy other finishers, a fast Coti is arguably the best natural midrange stone even if you decide to never finish on it again.

I’m saying all this as a predominantly Ark/JNAT guy. Even as much as I love JNATs, IMO there’s no more flexible natural stone that the Coti if you’re wanting to start out simple or stay simple in your setup.

I’ve got a coticule and a Thuringian. As much as I enjoy all these type discussions, I’m not swayed to buy another stone.

If I had two Coticules, one would have been a waste of money. Makes better sense to make the one you have work.

Can’t imagine barbers had a rock pile . They learn to make what they had work.
 
I don’t buy into the whole “finding the right Coticule” view so much. I believe you can definitely find a coarser than average coti or the wrong Coti, but I think the chances of finding the “right” coti are MUCH higher than you’d think reading online.

I would think many would agree that the coticule is a useful workhorse and can take a razor to a decent shave on average with an average sample.
When we are talking about giving an exceptional edge or finishing I will have to disagree.
These types are certainly not common or everybody would be finishing on them.
I have only had 4 pass through my hands at this point and only 1 will truly finish to my standards - on par with a Thury.
Two were downright horrid, one ok and the keeper. Pretty bad percentage, enough I will look no further and be happy I have a "rare" one.
 
I would probably just have 3 stones maybe even just 2 and that would be a 1k, 4K and JNAT with a few asano naguras, I like a 1k for chip removal and edge correction but it really leaves the edge rough so I try to always start at the 4K level

3 stones as listed above is what I've settled on and where I'd start if all were lost.
 
I think Cotis are massively underrated right now, but it’s cool because I don’t mind continuing to find ebay deals and swapping them out as I find prettier stones or ones I like better than my current group. Everyone can genuinely continue keeping the Coti reputation deflated and I won’t stop you.

Cotis won’t make the keenest edge but all 5 I’ve owned would make an edge keen enough that we’re no longer talking about edges being “better”, we’re talking about preferences and specific properties. They all took different tricks and techniques to get to that point, and I disliked the feedback on 2 of them. If I went into honing an edge looking for a certain level of keen on par with an Escher, I’d probably be disappointed in all but the Les Lat. If I wanted that certain level of keen though, I could easily get there with a Coti->Ark progression or past that keen point with JNATs, but I’d lose the rejuvenated post shave skin feel or I’d have to be pickier about soaps.

I don’t think I have the coarsest beard or most sensitive skin, but I was forced to shave twice a day when I was in a mil academy setting being scrutinized because my beard is pretty thick and grows back so quickly. I have to shave every single day with no recovery and it’s only gotten thicker and faster growing since then, so as sharp as I can make a JNAT edge and as much as I love that edge; the Cotis and Arks get the nod for daily 5am shaving duties.

The JNATs are for woodworking tools or for occasional lazer razors for fun for me, or I’ll use the TBN for midrange a lot. When I get a new blade usually I’ll do a time consuming JNAT edge just to see how fine the blade can go before I decide what stone I may want to use with that blade long term. Finish honing becomes esoteric at a certain point though, it’s more like debating ice cream flavors than “good, better, best”. Cotis just aren’t the flavor for everyone, particularly if you have steel whiskers and leather skin and you need that ultimate keen.
 
Not technically a stone
Acrylic block and lapping films....
these were my first

the lapping films are a great way to learn,very very consistent, there is no mystery, nuance, prep issues, personality.... follow the directions and get a great edge. I still revisit films on occasion and will stay in my honing tool box.

If I had to pick stones, for newb

I would get synthetic progression ... this would have fast tracked my honing skills
 
I remember a decade ago, one of the "meisters" on another site made a statement to the effect of 'Only 4% of coticules are suitable for razors'. This was insane to me, especially coming from a guy on a forum where guys were insisting not only was a Norton 8k a suitable razor finisher, but it was where every new honer should START finishing razors. I've seen some people in more recent years who are in contact with him seem to be walking back that statement. And the truth is, if he meant what they are claiming he did now (which is miles away from what he actually said), it's not unreasonable. Essentially, they are saying he is so demanding of his edges that he only considered 4% of coticules to deliver an edge that was exceptional enough it justified using a coticule over one of the many alternatives. Now, that statement makes absolute sense to me... the number actually seems about right. I've mentioned before the rare ultra-fine vintage coticules I seek out... and 4% is ballpark their representation in my experience. Thing is though, that's not at all the statement that was made so many years ago; whether that was what he meant or not, he said that you can't get a good shave off 96% of Coticules... and when people pushed back on that, he didn't explain or correct a misunderstanding, he stood his ground. And that was then, and still is, a silly statement. The average coticule gives a better edge than has been on the majority of "shave ready" razors I've received from experienced honers from multiple communities. It's not only a good shave, it's one of the easiest edges to learn to shave on because of its forgiveness of technique. Now, while I'll agree that the Coticules that give me an edge I'd choose over a Jnat or an Escher are very rare... applying that rarity to the idea of finding one that gives a comfortable shaving edge is nonsensical. The "average" coticule... which has closer to 96% representation than 4% (I'll admit about 1-2% of Coticules I've found I would judge as too coarse for razors) is an excellent choice for a beginning honer who needs a good shaving edge, but not necessarily the be-all end all perfect edge that many seek with Jnat's and other more complicated and often pricey stones and systems (though I do feel the 4% of top quality razor coticules offer that).


And therein lies the problem of Internet debate and discussion despite all it's merits: It can make what should be an easy misunderstanding to clear up into a subject of argument that can go on for decades, and which only serves to confuse, not enlighten, those paying attention to it.


With that said, if you are truly chasing that dragon of a perfect edge, then "buying the right coticule" is absolutely an option I would suggest. I have a small handful of stones that rank up there with (and above) Eschers, my best Jnats, almost anything. But they are a very small exception to the rule with Coticules. Probably because, like the Norton razor hones are with Axe-men... the guys who use them would never sell theirs, so the only ones being sold are from estates being sold by someone who has no clue what they're holding.
 
I remember a decade ago, one of the "meisters" on another site made a statement to the effect of 'Only 4% of coticules are suitable for razors'. This was insane to me, especially coming from a guy on a forum where guys were insisting not only was a Norton 8k a suitable razor finisher, but it was where every new honer should START finishing razors. I've seen some people in more recent years who are in contact with him seem to be walking back that statement. And the truth is, if he meant what they are claiming he did now (which is miles away from what he actually said), it's not unreasonable. Essentially, they are saying he is so demanding of his edges that he only considered 4% of coticules to deliver an edge that was exceptional enough it justified using a coticule over one of the many alternatives. Now, that statement makes absolute sense to me... the number actually seems about right. I've mentioned before the rare ultra-fine vintage coticules I seek out... and 4% is ballpark their representation in my experience. Thing is though, that's not at all the statement that was made so many years ago; whether that was what he meant or not, he said that you can't get a good shave off 96% of Coticules... and when people pushed back on that, he didn't explain or correct a misunderstanding, he stood his ground. And that was then, and still is, a silly statement. The average coticule gives a better edge than has been on the majority of "shave ready" razors I've received from experienced honers from multiple communities. It's not only a good shave, it's one of the easiest edges to learn to shave on because of its forgiveness of technique. Now, while I'll agree that the Coticules that give me an edge I'd choose over a Jnat or an Escher are very rare... applying that rarity to the idea of finding one that gives a comfortable shaving edge is nonsensical. The "average" coticule... which has closer to 96% representation than 4% (I'll admit about 1-2% of Coticules I've found I would judge as too coarse for razors) is an excellent choice for a beginning honer who needs a good shaving edge, but not necessarily the be-all end all perfect edge that many seek with Jnat's and other more complicated and often pricey stones and systems (though I do feel the 4% of top quality razor coticules offer that).


And therein lies the problem of Internet debate and discussion despite all it's merits: It can make what should be an easy misunderstanding to clear up into a subject of argument that can go on for decades, and which only serves to confuse, not enlighten, those paying attention to it.


With that said, if you are truly chasing that dragon of a perfect edge, then "buying the right coticule" is absolutely an option I would suggest. I have a small handful of stones that rank up there with (and above) Eschers, my best Jnats, almost anything. But they are a very small exception to the rule with Coticules. Probably because, like the Norton razor hones are with Axe-men... the guys who use them would never sell theirs, so the only ones being sold are from estates being sold by someone who has no clue what they're holding.

That’s the reality I live in for sure.

It’s also worth noting that anytime I’ve seen a complete estate collection claimed to be from a barber or just someone’s razor setup at an estate sale, there has ALWAYS been a Coti in the rock pile. Im saying literally 100% of the time so far for me, and more common than any other honing method. I think that’s because even if the Coti doesn’t become your preferred final finisher, it very often is the best single stone pre-finisher and best place to start a touch-up honing when needed.

Nobody rush out and buy one yet though, I’m bidding on an auction going currently...
 
Almost 100% here too... to the point where I assume if it's missing, someone just stole the coti before it made it to auction.
 

Chan Eil Whiskers

Fumbling about.
I remember a decade ago...

What a well done post, sir. Congratulations! A needle well threaded.

The average coticule gives a better edge than has been on the majority of "shave ready" razors I've received from experienced honers from multiple communities. It's not only a good shave, it's one of the easiest edges to learn to shave on because of its forgiveness of technique.

I would agree entirely.

Plus, I don't think it hard to learn the dilucot method which, for me, works well with my perfectly average luck of the draw rectangular coticule bought on sale from Jarrod.

[I use my patented Dilucot Oil Honing method, but water works fine too.]

Perhaps I would like one of the 4% coticules a lot better. Perhaps I already have a 4% coticule. In either case I see no need to buy another, and no chance that I'll be selling the coticule I have.

Happy shaves,

Jim
 
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