New Thurginian Grit

[Disburden]

Hi, Guys!

Just a question about the new Muller Thuringian hones. Are they a high grit like the vintage ones? Can I use them after my naniwa 12k as a finisher like I could with a vintage one or an Escher one? Or are they lower grit and not suitable for what I need?

 

[danjared]

From my understanding, they vary from cut to cut. The best bet for you is to try it after your Naniwa 12k if you have one and see what finish you like most (since that's really what matters anyway). I think at worst they would probably be on par.

 

[mrmaroon]

There are a few meuller hones I think. I have the smaller 1X5 inch and it leaves a sharper edge than a coticule. I think the darker larger ones are around 7k. Don't quote me on that though. Mine is a greenish color and works well. It was in the white/red packaging,

 

[SliceOfLife]

Mueller currently has two stones. One they sell as "Real Thuringian without Pyrite inclusions" or something along those lines. These are only available in ~1x4" cuts. They seem to vary a little, but are all good finishers. The best I've got is comparable or a little better than my current Escher (the finest of the four escher's I've had). The worst I tried was noticeably rougher, but still finer than a coti, about the same as my vintage Thuringian.

The other stone they sell as "Natural German Hone with pyrite inclusions" or something like that. The stone I tried was rougher than my coticule, about as fine as my three line swaty's. However, you had to finish with no pressure to get it that fine. If you used pressure, the finish would drop to about 8k. I've seen Eschers/Thuringians that look like these (they look almost identical to the Escher in Joel's review), so they may just be extremely low quality Thuringians, but since MST doesn't call them Thuringians, I figure we should follow their lead.

 

[gary haywood]

I wonderd about one of those , i spoke to neil and he says its about the same as a coticule. I'm awaiting a escher to try after coticule . I will compare the differance if there is any. I would of thought the 12k naniwa is pritty nice finisher? have you tryed dilucot then finishing on your 12k, if so what was the differance?

 

[LessLemming]

Müller Thuringians are considered Fine, but nothing close to Esher or vintage Thuringians.
They are considered good finishers around the 8.000 mark.
You still might want to try finishing with your thuri after the Naniwa 12k
but I highly doubt it will be a better finish

 

[SliceOfLife]

The Mueller Thuringian that replaced my Escher would like to disagree with you. As would the chunk of another Mueller Thuringian I use to slurry it.

 

[mrmaroon]

The Mueller Thuringian that replaced my Escher would like to disagree with you. As would the chunk of another Mueller Thuringian I use to slurry it.

I must have gotten an amazing one too, because I can't tell the difference between it and my escher.

 

[Disburden]

I will have to do some testing on the stone I just received. That's for the information, guys!

 

[danjared]

Mueller currently has two stones. One they sell as "Real Thuringian without Pyrite inclusions" or something along those lines. These are only available in ~1x4" cuts. They seem to vary a little, but are all good finishers. The best I've got is comparable or a little better than my current Escher (the finest of the four escher's I've had). The worst I tried was noticeably rougher, but still finer than a coti, about the same as my vintage Thuringian.

They used to have ~2.5"x5"x3/4" ones but no longer. I have one. (These should not be confused with the "Natural German Hone with pyrite inclusions" variety, which are still available in large sizes but as far as I know never in these dimensions.) Mine finishes slightly below my vintage Thüringer, which is darker, but it's hard to compare these accurately since my big MST Thüringer is three times as wide and 1.5 times as thick as my vintage one, so how I hold and hone on these is different. I find it easier to keep a lighter pressure on the 1" wide hones. I have yet to compare it to the smaller MST Thüringer I just got from SliceOfLife.

For visual comparison, here is a picture with the vintage one on the left, the one I just got from SliceOfLife on the right and the big MST Thüringer in the middle. Don't mind the scratches on the surface of these; I'm in a constant fight with the brick wall next to my desk. And if you have clues on what color to call the one in the middle, let me know.

 

[twoods]

I also got a small MST stone from SliceofLife. I read somewhere that it's not recommended to use the stone after a coticule? Has to do with the way they each leave the edge? Don't know if there's any verity to that. Mine is a small dark stone too. It seems to leave a pretty nice edge too.

JF

 

[danjared]

I also got a small MST stone from SliceofLife. I read somewhere that it's not recommended to use the stone after a coticule? Has to do with the way they each leave the edge? Don't know if there's any verity to that. Mine is a small dark stone too. It seems to leave a pretty nice edge too.

JF

Timber Frame Tools, a distributor of these stones, says that on this page: http://www.timbertools.com/Products/Escher-sharpening-stones.html

I've tried to find any sort of reasoning for that with no luck. My experience with using these after a coticule has been perfectly normal, so I would disregard what they say (especially since they already lie by calling them "Escher" stones!).

 

[twoods]

thanks!

How do you use it? dry? water? slurry? you find either better than your coticule?

JF

 

[danjared]

I use mine with slurry, sometimes followed by just water. If you don't have a slurry stone, I would recommend not worrying much about it since you'll probably be fine without one. Many people have excellent results just using water. I'm personally not a fan of using these dry since they're fairly soft hones. Others may be more successful than me.

As far as which leaves a "better" edge, I like the edge off all of my Thüringer and coticule whetstones. I like them all for different reasons and different phases of the moon. Some of it is even just the sentimental nature of owning something that was quarried 50-100 years ago. I recommend doing a forum search or Google search for "coticule versus thuringian" and decide for yourself since that's what matters anyway. It depends on the rock since these are not man-made but products of nature, thus they vary from cut to cut. I might say that the coticule edge off two of my coticules (haven't tried the third yet) is more mellow, but that isn't even true with my large MST Thüringer, which can leave an edge that feels similar to one of my coticules if used right. On other occasions, I could get it to match the level of my vintage Thüringer. It basically boils down to what strikes your fancy and budget (although the nice thing about a coticule is that it isn't just a finishing hone so you do get more bang for your buck assuming you don't already have coarser hones to fill the gap). Beyond that, what matters is skill, and no amount of purchases will make up for that.

All that rant is to say that it shouldn't really matter how it compares to my coticules, so I won't offer a less vague assessment lest you or someone else goes and decides to buy a bunch of coticules just because so-and-so said they're better than this or that.

 

[Disburden]

My main reason for asking is because I own and use a naniwa 12K for finishing my razors but heard old Eschers and thuringians can increase the edge even after a 12k hone. I was wondering if these new ones would be able to do the same or is it taking the edge back down to a 8k level.

 

[danjared]

My main reason for asking is because I own and use a naniwa 12K for finishing my razors but heard old Eschers and thuringians can increase the edge even after a 12k hone. I was wondering if these new ones would be able to do the same or is it taking the edge back down to a 8k level.

Ah. Well, these still vary enough that the only way to really know is to test the edge on each yourself. I doubt that it would take it down to the "8k level" (which can mean lots of things since even synthetic hones of the same grit rating leave different edges, as Joel notes in his review concerning the DMT 8k and Norton 8k). Many believe that natural whetstones leave a less harsh edge than synthetics, so even that is a factor that makes a simple comparison difficult.