New Improved 21st Century Rolls Razor!!

[mjclark]

But while we're on the subject... I just got a NOS Valet outfit... Do you suppose that some Fromm`s on the strop will get it usable?

Modified SE blades work in the Valet VB1/VC1 so you can use carbon steel or NOS blades. I much prefer carbon SE blades to the stainless.
I'm going the same route with my Empire.
As with the Durham Duplex and Rolls, the original blades will benefit from a full honing first but I'm just trying to work out how to do it - maybe a bulldog clip on the blade's spine?
And then a pasted strop.

 

[KeenEdger]

For the Valet I found some NOS blades for it, but I wanted to strop them on a pasted strop.

When I bought my Valet strop, it was pasted, but the leather was drying out. I cleaned it and conditioned the leather. It is back to almost new, but now not pasted and doesn't seem to do much for the blade.

I had small bit of the original Rolls strop paste, but it was only barely enough to paste another strop that I was using for my Dorset's blades a couple of weeks ago.

I'm not sure with kind of paper clip is a "bulldog clip", but when I was honing the Durham blades, I was using the black type that has the wires to hold the blade on my Swaty hone. I removed the spring/handle on one side, and I had to play with some wood shims on one side of the blade till it deformed the clip to the angle I was looking for, along with having to adjust the blade exposure also. Too much work... there's gotta be an easier way.

After honing, stropping is simple. I hold the blade with a 1924 Wizard Stropping Tool mfg by Ericsson Screw and Mach Co. It is made to hold DE blades, but will work on others. The tools looks reminds me of a Japanese razor.

 

[mjclark]

For the Valet I found some NOS blades for it, but I wanted to strop them on a pasted strop.

When I bought my Valet strop, it was pasted, but the leather was drying out. I cleaned it and conditioned the leather. It is back to almost new, but now not pasted and doesn't seem to do much for the blade.

I had small bit of the original Rolls strop paste, but it was only barely enough to paste another strop that I was using for my Dorset's blades a couple of weeks ago.

I'm not sure with kind of paper clip is a "bulldog clip", but when I was honing the Durham blades, I was using the black type that has the wires to hold the blade on my Swaty hone. I removed the spring/handle on one side, and I had to play with some wood shims on one side of the blade till it deformed the clip to the angle I was looking for, along with having to adjust the blade exposure also. Too much work... there's gotta be an easier way.

After honing, stropping is simple. I hold the blade with a 1924 Wizard Stropping Tool mfg by Ericsson Screw and Mach Co. It is made to hold DE blades, but will work on others. The tools looks reminds me of a Japanese razor.

Thanks - great minds think alike lol.
I use a proprietary Durham attachment for the Duplex blades but I also have an Ericsson's Wizard (which actually makes a fierce shavette too if you can keep your nerve!). If that will hold the NOS Wilkinson blades then I might tape its sides and use that for honing them too.

Using abrasive paste on the strops of these self-maintaining razors really could be the key to bringing them into the 21st century as proper shaving tools rather than the collector's curiousities that they've been for at least the last 50 years, and we're discovering that they deliver excellent shaves.

I'm guessing that ferric oxide is going to be the best for daily use, and here's where we're going to find out!

 

[gdgeorge]

CrOx paste received. Looks suspiciouly like green paint but I'm assuming it's .5um... I massaged some into a Rolls strop and let it dry. I then ran the blade over the strop. Any tips in terms of knowing when it's stropped enough? Should I be dry shaving my arm as a test?

 

[mjclark]

It won't need many laps as chromium oxide is pretty aggressive.
Just give it a few more than you think you should

I just shaved with a Rolls Imperial finished in the case on 1u lapping film and then chromium oxide.

I found the chromium oxide has not given as good an edge as the ferric oxide, but still got that awesome very efficient but very comfortable Rolls shave!

 

[gdgeorge]

Well, that made a huge difference. First off: no real prep, so this shave is not necessarily representative of what the full monty will be. I used Sterling, no mug warmer, no PSO, and started with a damp face. The blade felt good wtg and xtg, with little or no tugging. Xtg was a different story though. I think that I need to go oblique to the grain rather than straight against. I'm going to run the blade through the 5, 3, 1um progression again, this time on the luan rather than the hone. That seemed to make a bit of a difference last time, and with the CrOx paste, should be a lot closer to where I'd like the blade. I'm thinking about having one professionally done, just to see what it's supposed to be like. I have no real basis for comparision right now. First things first though...

 

[gdgeorge]

After yesterday's shave was similar to that of the day before, I broke down and ran another blade through the different grits of lapping film and the stropped it on the CrOx pasted strop. Same results: SAS. It's still a fairly smooth shave, except against the grain. It's nowhere near as close as I'd like it to be after the last pass though as there's definate stubble ATG.

I looked at both blades under a magnifier and the edges are not mirror smooth, so I'm thinking that the bevel is not completely set, and I need to start with a heavier grit than the lapping film. Any suggestions folks? I'm also thinking that I should definately send a blade out to be honed by someone who can do it correctly, out of the case. Again, any suggestions?

Cheers,
Jerry

 

[mjclark]

Yeah - if you're honing it outside the box, the bevel needs to be set outside the box too, since it makes a different angle on the external stones to when it's in the case.
I use a coarse synthetic knife stone to set the bevel, and I'm sure this is the key along with a fine finish like ferric oxide or maybe 0.3u film. When I tried chromium oxide, the blade was nowhere near as smooth as with the ferric.
I am getting DFS/BBS shaves from my Rolls now.

Also, I will happily hone your blade for you for free, but I am in UK so you might want to find someone closer to home.
But the offer's there

 

[gdgeorge]

Yeah - if you're honing it outside the box, the bevel needs to be set outside the box too, since it makes a different angle on the external stones to when it's in the case.
I use a coarse synthetic knife stone to set the bevel, and I'm sure this is the key along with a fine finish like ferric oxide or maybe 0.3u film. When I tried chromium oxide, the blade was nowhere near as smooth as with the ferric.
I am getting DFS/BBS shaves from my Rolls now.

Also, I will happily hone your blade for you for free, but I am in UK so you might want to find someone closer to home.
But the offer's there

Thanks for the offer. I may take you up on it!

(The following is a review, as much for my benefit as anyone elses... Feel free to chime in though!)

I'm trying to hone the blade in the box and I'm pretty certain that the issue that I'm running into is because of two things.

First, while I'm pretty good with sharpening and honing knives and other tools, especially those for my lathe, I have zero experience with razors. Second, it's for this reason that I've been trying to hone the Rolls inside the case, by substituting other sharpening media into the existing setup, either on the hone stone or on a piece of luan that I've cut down to fit in place of a stone. This way, if I can make it work, I won't have to worry about setting the angle outside of the case.

The issue is that it's not working thus far... I checked the distance between the top of the case and the surface and it's very close (within a couple of hundredth inches), and I've been starting with a 5 micron film. While both of the blades that I've worked on show a marked improvement over where they started, and both produce about the same level or shave (SAS), without a whole lot of discomfort (except ATG... that's not fun.) Examination of the blades under a magnifier (not a loupe or microscope, by any means) reveals that there is a definite grain remaining on both blades.

There are a couple of other things that I should try before I give up and send a blade or two off to be professionally honed... First of all, I don't know that either the Rolls hone or my luan piece are flat. Perhaps I should move to a piece of flattened balsa to start. Second: if I'm seeing a similar grain on both blades, I need to back off on the grit a bit and work my way to the .uM paste. I see that people are setting edges in the woodworking world with 45 uM film. That's roughly equivilent to 220 or 240 grit wet / dry sandpaper. I don't think I need to back up that far, but I wander if I could start with a 1000 grit wet / dry medium and see if that reduces the grain. If not I can back up further. If it does, though, I can run a progression like 1000 > 2000 > 5uM > 3uM > 1uM and then the strop...

OK. There's a plan. I think I'm going to pick up a cheap loupe as well, so that I can get a better look at the blades.

Cheers,
Jerry

 

[mjclark]

Thanks for the offer. I may take you up on it!

(The following is a review, as much for my benefit as anyone elses... Feel free to chime in though!)

I'm trying to hone the blade in the box and I'm pretty certain that the issue that I'm running into is because of two things.

First, while I'm pretty good with sharpening and honing knives and other tools, especially those for my lathe, I have zero experience with razors. Second, it's for this reason that I've been trying to hone the Rolls inside the case, by substituting other sharpening media into the existing setup, either on the hone stone or on a piece of luan that I've cut down to fit in place of a stone. This way, if I can make it work, I won't have to worry about setting the angle outside of the case.

The issue is that it's not working thus far... I checked the distance between the top of the case and the surface and it's very close (within a couple of hundredth inches), and I've been starting with a 5 micron film. While both of the blades that I've worked on show a marked improvement over where they started, and both produce about the same level or shave (SAS), without a whole lot of discomfort (except ATG... that's not fun.) Examination of the blades under a magnifier (not a loupe or microscope, by any means) reveals that there is a definite grain remaining on both blades.

There are a couple of other things that I should try before I give up and send a blade or two off to be professionally honed... First of all, I don't know that either the Rolls hone or my luan piece are flat. Perhaps I should move to a piece of flattened balsa to start. Second: if I'm seeing a similar grain on both blades, I need to back off on the grit a bit and work my way to the .uM paste. I see that people are setting edges in the woodworking world with 45 uM film. That's roughly equivilent to 220 or 240 grit wet / dry sandpaper. I don't think I need to back up that far, but I wander if I could start with a 1000 grit wet / dry medium and see if that reduces the grain. If not I can back up further. If it does, though, I can run a progression like 1000 > 2000 > 5uM > 3uM > 1uM and then the strop...

OK. There's a plan. I think I'm going to pick up a cheap loupe as well, so that I can get a better look at the blades.

Cheers,
Jerry

Sounds like an excellent plan, I'm sure the key to this is resetting the bevel, and maybe go even coarser than 1000 to begin with. Perhaps 600, 800, 1000, 5u, 3u, 1u, pasted strop.

And yes definitely do the whole progression on flat hones outside the case.
It will be very exciting to see what results you get!

Over here, I have done a test comparing ferric oxide and chromium oxide for the strop and the ferric oxide is the clear winner. I did however use chromium oxide green acrylic ( which works great for my straights) so perhaps crox in a different medium might work better...
...anyway, using the same blade honed in the case on the 1u film but this time stropped in the case on ferric oxide, I got a great shave.The result was a very comfortable and pleasurable DFS/BBS which left my face feeling lovely

So here's a very good recipe for the 21st century Rolls:

1) Hone the blade outside the case through a full progression, starting by fully resetting the bevel and ending with a nice finisher.

2) Overlay the case hone with 1u lapping film, sealing it onto the hone with petroleum jelly.

3) Paste the case strop with ferric oxide, using baby oil as a medium.

4) Hone and strop the blade in the case as suggested by the original Rolls Razor instructions.

5) Enjoy incredible 21st century Rolls shaves!

 

[buffalo]

I have a stainless cased rolls razor. My wifes grandfather told me about rolls. It is accualy what got me started on wet shaving and then to this sight. After reading this I wajt to drag it back out and start a refinishing job!!

 

[kcb5150]

Cool, the stainless steel cases are not that common

 

[gdgeorge]

I have a stainless cased rolls razor. My wifes grandfather told me about rolls. It is accualy what got me started on wet shaving and then to this sight. After reading this I wajt to drag it back out and start a refinishing job!!

Nice one. It's worth the time.

 

[gdgeorge]

Sounds like an excellent plan, I'm sure the key to this is resetting the bevel, and maybe go even coarser than 1000 to begin with. Perhaps 600, 800, 1000, 5u, 3u, 1u, pasted strop.

And yes definitely do the whole progression on flat hones outside the case.
It will be very exciting to see what results you get!

Over here, I have done a test comparing ferric oxide and chromium oxide for the strop and the ferric oxide is the clear winner. I did however use chromium oxide green acrylic ( which works great for my straights) so perhaps crox in a different medium might work better...
...anyway, using the same blade honed in the case on the 1u film but this time stropped in the case on ferric oxide, I got a great shave.The result was a very comfortable and pleasurable DFS/BBS which left my face feeling lovely

So here's a very good recipe for the 21st century Rolls:

1) Hone the blade outside the case through a full progression, starting by fully resetting the bevel and ending with a nice finisher.

2) Overlay the case hone with 1u lapping film, sealing it onto the hone with petroleum jelly.

3) Paste the case strop with ferric oxide, using baby oil as a medium.

4) Hone and strop the blade in the case as suggested by the original Rolls Razor instructions.

5) Enjoy incredible 21st century Rolls shaves!

I went with decent 600, 1200, and 2000 grit paper, and then the 5u, 3u, 1u film, followed by the CrOx strop. The difference in the blade under a magifying glass was apparent in that it was much closer to a mirror finish. I used (from a post on another board) three layers of PVC tape on the heel to set an approximate angle.

The shave was much smoother albeit still little better than SAS. The improvement was enought that I'm going to pursue this next week. I *am* going to pick up a cheap-o loupe at Horrible Fright this weekend as the next round is going to involve "if there are still scratches, it's not done.

Cheers,

 

[mjclark]

I went with decent 600, 1200, and 2000 grit paper, and then the 5u, 3u, 1u film, followed by the CrOx strop. The difference in the blade under a magifying glass was apparent in that it was much closer to a mirror finish. I used (from a post on another board) three layers of PVC tape on the heel to set an approximate angle.

The shave was much smoother albeit still little better than SAS. The improvement was enought that I'm going to pursue this next week. I *am* going to pick up a cheap-o loupe at Horrible Fright this weekend as the next round is going to involve "if there are still scratches, it's not done.

Cheers,

Sounds like it's heading in the right direction!
Don't hold back when setting the bevel - it can take longer and require more force and effort than you think.

I hone my blades flat on the hone without any tape.
Three layers of tape will give a fatter bevel which may feel less aggressive but should still give a good shave.
And after the honing, strop strop strop to smooth the edge.

I have a coarse beard and am getting smooth comfortable DFS/BBS shaves from the 21st century Rolls so it's really worth perservering.

Thanks for sharing your progress so far. It's exciting to hear where it goes next

 

[gdgeorge]

Sounds like it's heading in the right direction!
Don't hold back when setting the bevel - it can take longer and require more force and effort than you think.

I hone my blades flat on the hone without any tape.
Three layers of tape will give a fatter bevel which may feel less aggressive but should still give a good shave.
And after the honing, strop strop strop to smooth the edge.

I have a coarse beard and am getting smooth comfortable DFS/BBS shaves from the 21st century Rolls so it's really worth perservering.

Thanks for sharing your progress so far. It's exciting to hear where it goes next

Finally back to the Rolls blade this morning after a couple of busy weeks. I changed my setup a bit and put a piece of window glass on top of a piece of sign makers' foam in lieu of the floor tile I had been using. I took a blade that I had tried to sharpen inside the case with the built in stone and strop and that showed a nice clear edge. I ran a progression that started with 600, 1200, and 2000 grit wet/dry. Then through the 5, 3, and 1um lapping films. Although I used considerably more pressure, and introduced a back-and-forth stroke rather than simply pushing the edge into the media. The edge was clearly cleaner under light magnification but it would not cut through a hair drawn across the blade. Nor would it shave my arm. So I ran the progression again. And again. After the second time I used an hard Arkasas oilstone before the media. On that third pregression, the edge didn't look as mirrored, and I still couldn't cut a hair out of my head, but i could shave my arm. I put the guard back on the blade and stropped it a bit. I'll try it tomorrow. I'm starting to think that I may have to use a stone rather than simply limiting myself to the "scary sharp" technique. I'm also not sure about working the steel both ways on the media although I see that people work the steel many different ways.

 

[mjclark]

Finally back to the Rolls blade this morning after a couple of busy weeks. I changed my setup a bit and put a piece of window glass on top of a piece of sign makers' foam in lieu of the floor tile I had been using. I took a blade that I had tried to sharpen inside the case with the built in stone and strop and that showed a nice clear edge. I ran a progression that started with 600, 1200, and 2000 grit wet/dry. Then through the 5, 3, and 1um lapping films. Although I used considerably more pressure, and introduced a back-and-forth stroke rather than simply pushing the edge into the media. The edge was clearly cleaner under light magnification but it would not cut through a hair drawn across the blade. Nor would it shave my arm. So I ran the progression again. And again. After the second time I used an hard Arkasas oilstone before the media. On that third pregression, the edge didn't look as mirrored, and I still couldn't cut a hair out of my head, but i could shave my arm. I put the guard back on the blade and stropped it a bit. I'll try it tomorrow. I'm starting to think that I may have to use a stone rather than simply limiting myself to the "scary sharp" technique. I'm also not sure about working the steel both ways on the media although I see that people work the steel many different ways.

Great stuff! Shaving arm hair is a good test that the bevel is set, and that is the foundation on which the success of everything else rests.
Get a coarse stone, and don't worry about running the progression at all until you have honed honed honed! on that one stone and the bevel is set. It should easily shave arm hair and pass the "thumb nail test" or TNT.
There's plenty of info about these tests on B&B.
Once your edge is passing these tests, then move on through the progression.

It's great that you're getting these improvements.
Success is close now

 

[gdgeorge]

How coarse? I've got a set with a silicon carbide and two Arkansas stones. I'm loath to try the former as it removes a lot of steel quicly. I went ahead and flattened the later two and ran another blade on them for a hundred or so strokes. I'm using a fairly heavy hand but it's not really getting as sharp as I'd like.

 

[mjclark]

800 or 1000 grit is a good place to start and definitely no finer than 1200.
You could even go as low as 600 if you have 800 and 1000 to follow and polish it out.

Use the thumbnail test (TNT) and only move on when the edge satisfies the test.
Basically draw the blade lightly across your wet thumb nail.
If it is dull it will slide across smoothly, but when the bevel is set you will feel roughness and resistance as the edge bites in.
To set a benchmark, conduct the test with a new SE blade first and note how it feels.

Once this test is passed, you can be confident of a good final result if you then give each successive stage in the progression enough time.
Really, once the edge has passed the TNT, it's in the bank.

 

[gdgeorge]

OK. I've started with the medium Arkansas. I did a bit of reading and it looks like it is regarded as a very slow stone. I'm going to figure out the TNT and work with a blade.

I've actually also got one that I worked with quite a bit today, and I'll try for tomorrow's shave. Almost there...