New grinder needed

[MntnMan62]

Quick update on this for anyone contemplating buying an OE Pharos:

I wanted to send the unit back, as I was (and remain) dismayed at the speed with which the adjustment bolt rounded out. However I really should have checked the fine print on returns before buying - I hadn't spotted the 15% 'restock charge', so coupling that with the postage fees I would be massively out of pocket. In the UK such fees are unheard of: if it's likely a manufacturing fault the company are obligated to replace or refund free of charge.

OE sent me a replacement adjustment collar, gratis. This was appreciated, however immediately on receiving the part I checked it against two newly-bought high quality 3mm Allen keys, and there was significant play evident in the interface.

I suspect it's actually a 1/8 bolt (3.5mm, not 3mm). So I've ordered a 1/8 Allen key to see if that helps. Nevertheless the bolt quality is poor, the metal rounds very easily even at low torque settings, so I will look to replace it with a hardened metric equivalent.

If anyone's interested I can post up the minimum torque settings I've found necessary to prevent collar slip with light-roasted coffees, I have them around somewhere.

Summary of this grinder:

- Grind quality is excellent.
- It's hard work with light roasts and you'll almost certainly need something to dog it to a bench or worktop.
- The adjustment system is not great out of the box: before installing put some copper-slip on the bolt and use caution torquing it up.
- Don't expect sympathy from Doug & Barb if you round out the bolt.

Hearing this makes me appreciate Baratza that much more. Obviously with grinders, manual or electric, things can and will go wrong which makes finding a manufacturer that stands behind their product that much more important. Even things that can be attributed to user error should be eliminated during the design phase of the product and I suspect that you are not the only one who is having the kind of issues you are having. That should be a message to the manufacturers that either they need to tweek the design or be more forthcoming with instructions on the proper tools to use for making adjustments. Sorry to hear about your troubes but it doesn't seem to have stopped you from enjoying a good cup of coffee. Cheers.

 

[MurderousCrow]

Hearing this makes me appreciate Baratza that much more. Obviously with grinders, manual or electric, things can and will go wrong which makes finding a manufacturer that stands behind their product that much more important. Even things that can be attributed to user error should be eliminated during the design phase of the product and I suspect that you are not the only one who is having the kind of issues you are having. That should be a message to the manufacturers that either they need to tweek the design or be more forthcoming with instructions on the proper tools to use for making adjustments. Sorry to hear about your troubes but it doesn't seem to have stopped you from enjoying a good cup of coffee. Cheers.

Thank you - this is spot on IMO. I'll be replacing the bolt and plowing on with this grinder for a fair while, but I'm disappointed that on its third iteration this grinder still seems to be in beta.

The adjustment system is pretty much the only part a user will need to tweak at all, so it feels to me they could have thought this through and come up with a better solution.

Otherwise it's well-built and properly screwed together, and does produce amazing grinds. I'll be less grumpy once I can dial my coffees back in!

 

[StillShaving]

Quick update on this for anyone contemplating buying an OE Pharos:

I wanted to send the unit back, as I was (and remain) dismayed at the speed with which the adjustment bolt rounded out. However I really should have checked the fine print on returns before buying - I hadn't spotted the 15% 'restock charge', so coupling that with the postage fees I would be massively out of pocket. In the UK such fees are unheard of: if it's likely a manufacturing fault the company are obligated to replace or refund free of charge.

OE sent me a replacement adjustment collar, gratis. This was appreciated, however immediately on receiving the part I checked it against two newly-bought high quality 3mm Allen keys, and there was significant play evident in the interface.

I suspect it's actually a 1/8 bolt (3.5mm, not 3mm). So I've ordered a 1/8 Allen key to see if that helps. Nevertheless the bolt quality is poor, the metal rounds very easily even at low torque settings, so I will look to replace it with a hardened metric equivalent.

If anyone's interested I can post up the minimum torque settings I've found necessary to prevent collar slip with light-roasted coffees, I have them around somewhere.

Summary of this grinder:

- Grind quality is excellent.
- It's hard work with light roasts and you'll almost certainly need something to dog it to a bench or worktop.
- The adjustment system is not great out of the box: before installing put some copper-slip on the bolt and use caution torquing it up.
- Don't expect sympathy from Doug & Barb if you round out the bolt.

Sorry to hear about your experience with customer service. I have read before that Dong/Barb can be slow to respond but in the past they have usually been responsive to issues on the coffee forums.

I have a older Pharos 1.0, it is not a super early model, but one which was assembled in the Idaho workshop and used a pair of locking nuts to maintain the grind setting rather than the split collar nut. I always found the locking nuts hard to adjust as many times that I would attempt to adjust I would "bump" something and lose track of where I was at. Since there was no set reference mark (other than running it back to "zero" which can also raise issues with repeatability) it was not easy to get dialed in. In the end I found a happy medium setting and left it there for years, using dosage level as a way to fine tune the shot. I ordered the split-collar adjustment nut years ago but it sat for a long time. In the intervening years I also started using my Lido 2 to grind for espresso since it was easier to adjust (though still not ideal).

I finally got around to installing my split-collar adjusting nut about 6 months ago (I can't clearly remember when) as I wanted to experiment with dosage & grind levels while leaving the Lido for pour-over and press. Like you I found that it really needed to be torqued down to avoid slipping. It took more force that I expected. I was hesitant to use that much force as I worried it might be enough force to damage the threaded shaft if frequently making small adjustments. So in the end I am nearly back where I started, in that I rarely adjust the grind setting as it is difficult to fine tune.

At the beginning of the covid lockdown I resolved to upgrade my Pharos grinder to the 2.0 version but discovered they only offer a 1.1 to 2.0 upgrade kit on their website. I did not try to contact them or the other forums to see what would be involved to bridge the gap and get upgraded...since I also had doubts if the upgrade would resolve my biggest and really only issue with the grinder, which is that it is tricky to repeat the grind setting after making multiple adjustments. The 2.0 grinder does offer one other advantage over my 1.0 version, in that the burr-carrier/adjustment shaft is finer pitched, so each degree of adjustment moves the burr less. So I would appreciate that.

Anyhow sorry for the longish story, but I did that since your 2.0 grinder has a different shaft it will have a different split-collar adjustment nut which may or may not use the same Allen wrench size. The hex key that came with my new collar was 9/64 (see attached photo). Did your grinder not come with an Allen wrench? Or did the new nut not come with one? Mine came as a package, both parts together.

 

[StillShaving]

Thank you - this is spot on IMO. I'll be replacing the bolt and plowing on with this grinder for a fair while, but I'm disappointed that on its third iteration this grinder still seems to be in beta.

The adjustment system is pretty much the only part a user will need to tweak at all, so it feels to me they could have thought this through and come up with a better solution.

Otherwise it's well-built and properly screwed together, and does produce amazing grinds. I'll be less grumpy once I can dial my coffees back in!

Yes, it does produce a nice grind once you get it adjusted. The grinder has actually improved a lot over the years, but I think it "suffers" from being such a minimalist design. It was as if Doug got the idea while repairing old hand grinders and thought what if I put big nice burr set into a hand grinder so that it is affordable. Just provide a way to hold the burr steady to counter the grinding forces and capture the grinds, so that one did not need to spend nearly 1 grand US$ and have a big machine on their counter. In that respect it has been a success, but it is a pain to make small adjustments.

 

[MurderousCrow]

Sorry to hear about your experience with customer service. I have read before that Dong/Barb can be slow to respond but in the past they have usually been responsive to issues on the coffee forums.

I have a older Pharos 1.0, it is not a super early model, but one which was assembled in the Idaho workshop and used a pair of locking nuts to maintain the grind setting rather than the split collar nut. I always found the locking nuts hard to adjust as many times that I would attempt to adjust I would "bump" something and lose track of where I was at. Since there was no set reference mark (other than running it back to "zero" which can also raise issues with repeatability) it was not easy to get dialed in. In the end I found a happy medium setting and left it there for years, using dosage level as a way to fine tune the shot. I ordered the split-collar adjustment nut years ago but it sat for a long time. In the intervening years I also started using my Lido 2 to grind for espresso since it was easier to adjust (though still not ideal).

I finally got around to installing my split-collar adjusting nut about 6 months ago (I can't clearly remember when) as I wanted to experiment with dosage & grind levels while leaving the Lido for pour-over and press. Like you I found that it really needed to be torqued down to avoid slipping. It took more force that I expected. I was hesitant to use that much force as I worried it might be enough force to damage the threaded shaft if frequently making small adjustments. So in the end I am nearly back where I started, in that I rarely adjust the grind setting as it is difficult to fine tune.

At the beginning of the covid lockdown I resolved to upgrade my Pharos grinder to the 2.0 version but discovered they only offer a 1.1 to 2.0 upgrade kit on their website. I did not try to contact them or the other forums to see what would be involved to bridge the gap and get upgraded...since I also had doubts if the upgrade would resolve my biggest and really only issue with the grinder, which is that it is tricky to repeat the grind setting after making multiple adjustments. The 2.0 grinder does offer one other advantage over my 1.0 version, in that the burr-carrier/adjustment shaft is finer pitched, so each degree of adjustment moves the burr less. So I would appreciate that.

Anyhow sorry for the longish story, but I did that since your 2.0 grinder has a different shaft it will have a different split-collar adjustment nut which may or may not use the same Allen wrench size. The hex key that came with my new collar was 9/64 (see attached photo). Did your grinder not come with an Allen wrench? Or did the new nut not come with one? Mine came as a package, both parts together.
View attachment 1104963

You've had a journey with yours too haven't you? The issues are really similar.

I actually haven't checked the size of the Allen key that came with mine - the OE YouTube videos I watched specifically mentioned a 3mm key, and recommended that an aftermarket T-type key be purchased.

I saw why when I tried using the included Allen wrench to tighten the nut for the first time, when the setting position required for the bolt to be under the grinder handle - one simply cannot generate sufficient torque for the collar to hold when using the wrench in the long orientation. The original key also showed wear at both ends after only a brief series of readjustments.

I'll check its size anyway.

Overall the locking system is inadequately designed and specified. Hopefully changing the bolt for a better quality metric item will sort this issue once and for all.

 

[StillShaving]

You've had a journey with yours too haven't you? The issues are really similar.

I actually haven't checked the size of the Allen key that came with mine - the OE YouTube videos I watched specifically mentioned a 3mm key, and recommended that an aftermarket T-type key be purchased.

I saw why when I tried using the included Allen wrench to tighten the nut for the first time, when the setting position required for the bolt to be under the grinder handle - one simply cannot generate sufficient torque for the collar to hold when using the wrench in the long orientation. The original key also showed wear at both ends after only a brief series of readjustments.

I'll check its size anyway.

Overall the locking system is inadequately designed and specified. Hopefully changing the bolt for a better quality metric item will sort this issue once and for all.

For sure it would nearly be impossible to use an Allen key if the handle were directly above the locking nut. When I first reassembled mine after switching over to use the single split-collar lock nut and getting it the ball park of correctly dialed-in, I found that the handle was directly above the nut, so I adjusted the handle before continuing. I suppose a T-type wrench would avoid that issue if it had a very long shaft, but given the required force needed to torque it down I would much rather rely on the short side of a traditional Allen wrench.

Sounds like the 2.0 version might have a different sized Hex? A quick calculation shows that 9/64" is 0.14063", while 3mm converts to 0.11811" which is getting closer to 1/8" or 0.12500". But if the true size is 9/64 that might explain why yours is getting rounded out. My 9/64 fits with a very tight tolerance, it takes a little concentration to get the key in the proper orientation and square with the opening when trying to insert. Once inserted it is very tight and I imagine that I could break the key before rounding out the nut (female receiver)....though I just double checked while responding to you and find there is a little more play than I remembered but still fairly tight. I attempted to take a close up photo of my wrench (attached) and see that there is some wear in a mostly uniform way which indicates that the tolerance is tight, though I am still not comfortable with the force needed to tighten the split collar nut. I realize the short Allen wrench makes the torque seem higher than it actually is, but I think locking down the adjusting nut should not feel like tightening the oil drain plug of your car.

 

[MurderousCrow]

For sure it would nearly be impossible to use an Allen key if the handle were directly above the locking nut. When I first reassembled mine after switching over to use the single split-collar lock nut and getting it the ball park of correctly dialed-in, I found that the handle was directly above the nut, so I adjusted the handle before continuing. I suppose a T-type wrench would avoid that issue if it had a very long shaft, but given the required force needed to torque it down I would much rather rely on the short side of a traditional Allen wrench.

Sounds like the 2.0 version might have a different sized Hex? A quick calculation shows that 9/64" is 0.14063", while 3mm converts to 0.11811" which is getting closer to 1/8" or 0.12500". But if the true size is 9/64 that might explain why yours is getting rounded out. My 9/64 fits with a very tight tolerance, it takes a little concentration to get the key in the proper orientation and square with the opening when trying to insert. Once inserted it is very tight and I imagine that I could break the key before rounding out the nut (female receiver)....though I just double checked while responding to you and find there is a little more play than I remembered but still fairly tight. I attempted to take a close up photo of my wrench (attached) and see that there is some wear in a mostly uniform way which indicates that the tolerance is tight, though I am still not comfortable with the force needed to tighten the split collar nut. I realize the short Allen wrench makes the torque seem higher than it actually is, but I think locking down the adjusting nut should not feel like tightening the oil drain plug of your car.
View attachment 1105439

Thank you for the tip! I've ordered a 1/8 key (another high-quality item, I do seem to be collecting them now!) and will see how that fits, good to know there's another size I can try if it's no good.

 

[MurderousCrow]

Another wee update. I continue with the Pharos, because I'm both stubborn and too lazy to change it. Coffee quality had slid, and I'd wondered what was wrong. I chased around trying different doses and grind sizes but it didn't help. Finally the grinder started to bind at one point in the rotation and I realised what was up - it had come out of alignment. About 30min of sometimes frustrating work got it back to true, and I've had some awesome coffees from it since - in fact some of the best I've ever had, anywhere. Makes me think the grinder may never have been fully aligned from the off. If anyone purchases one it would be worth seeking out the video by OE on alignment before making a coffee. It also seems slightly easier to grind, a nice benefit. The Pharos is a temperamental beast, but it can produce truly incredible coffee.

 

[street]

Another wee update. I continue with the Pharos, because I'm both stubborn and too lazy to change it. Coffee quality had slid, and I'd wondered what was wrong. I chased around trying different doses and grind sizes but it didn't help. Finally the grinder started to bind at one point in the rotation and I realised what was up - it had come out of alignment. About 30min of sometimes frustrating work got it back to true, and I've had some awesome coffees from it since - in fact some of the best I've ever had, anywhere. Makes me think the grinder may never have been fully aligned from the off. If anyone purchases one it would be worth seeking out the video by OE on alignment before making a coffee. It also seems slightly easier to grind, a nice benefit. The Pharos is a temperamental beast, but it can produce truly incredible coffee.

Glad you like it.
I've owned one 7 years ago or so. Hated it and sold it after a few months. The ergonomics were awful.

 

[MurderousCrow]

Glad you like it.
I've owned one 7 years ago or so. Hated it and sold it after a few months. The ergonomics were awful.

Haha. 'Like', no I wouldn't say so - I agree the ergonomics are awful. That combined with a punitive returns policy, poorly-specified parts (adjuster ring) and negligible customer service mean I'll never like the thing. But, I do love the coffee it can make.

 

[StillShaving]

Haha. 'Like', no I wouldn't say so - I agree the ergonomics are awful. That combined with a punitive returns policy, poorly-specified parts (adjuster ring) and negligible customer service mean I'll never like the thing. But, I do love the coffee it can make.

I still use my Pharos. I can understand how many would not like the ergonomics. I certainly dislike the adjustment mechanism as it is hard to make repeatable adjustments or small adjustment tweaks. But I like the way it grinds, the ease and speed of grinding is good IMO.

 

[MurderousCrow]

An update for anyone interested -

I replaced the bolt for the adjustment collar recently. What a change - a decent hardened stainless bolt makes it significantly easier to change settings for espresso.

The Pharos still vexed me though, and with the assistance of a local roastery I got a Niche Zero at cost. Amazing, considering the prices on eBay currently. This was to accompany the arrival of a La Pavoni Pro, restored by Tudor & Bogdan at Coffee Sensor over in Romania.

The grind quality is great, as good as the Pharos I'd say despite the smaller burr set. The Niche is very easy to use and quiet, and has (slightly) lower retention than the Pharos to boot.

I will add a large flat / hybrid grinder at some point, as I still prefer the flavour separation achieved by this type of unit, but the Niche will do me well for a long while yet.

Hope this is helpful for those looking for a great quality conical burr grinder at a reasonable price. The Niche (suggested previously in this thread) is pretty much the bee's knees.

The Pharos is an excellent grinder for mid-to-dark roasts, but is approaching unusable with truly light roasted coffee. It'll be going up for sale in the near future.

 

[StillShaving]

Nice that you were able to snag a Niche at a bargain price.

I hear you about grinding light roasts with the Pharos. It can feel like grinding rocks sometimes, taking some extra effort to get the shaft rotating. I suppose that is because of how fast it grinds, with a number of beans being ground down at the same time. I do prefer to roast a little darker when brewing espresso, so it has not been a big problem for me in previous years. Kind of enjoyable, like a brief interlude of exercise. But over the last year or so I have been roasting lighter than years before in general, in order to better enjoy the same coffee as both pour-over and espresso. In which case I started to better appreciate the effort it can sometimes take. Sure just about any "man" can do it, but maybe not his teenage son.

 

[MurderousCrow]

Nice that you were able to snag a Niche at a bargain price.

I hear you about grinding light roasts with the Pharos. It can feel like grinding rocks sometimes, taking some extra effort to get the shaft rotating. I suppose that is because of how fast it grinds, with a number of beans being ground down at the same time. I do prefer to roast a little darker when brewing espresso, so it has not been a big problem for me in previous years. Kind of enjoyable, like a brief interlude of exercise. But over the last year or so I have been roasting lighter than years before in general, in order to better enjoy the same coffee as both pour-over and espresso. In which case I started to better appreciate the effort it can sometimes take. Sure just about any "man" can do it, but maybe not his teenage son.

Using the same coffee for pour-over & espresso is something I'll be doing a lot more of now with the Niche. (Once I've had sufficient practice on the LP - I'm not consistent yet.) The Niche makes it super-easy to switch grinds and return to exactly where you were - I've done 2 pour-overs recently using the ingenious Kalita Kantan dripper things. Both really tasty. Having never really done this before I'll be interested to see how the flavours compare - I hope different and better than just watering down an espresso.

 

[Mick]

Using the same coffee for pour-over & espresso is something I'll be doing a lot more of now with the Niche. (Once I've had sufficient practice on the LP - I'm not consistent yet.) The Niche makes it super-easy to switch grinds and return to exactly where you were - I've done 2 pour-overs recently using the ingenious Kalita Kantan dripper things. Both really tasty. Having never really done this before I'll be interested to see how the flavours compare - I hope different and better than just watering down an espresso.

Kalita gives you that "Bunn" taste as they are also flat bottom, pleated sides

 

[MurderousCrow]

Not familiar with the Bunn to be honest, but guess you may be referring to a rounder, richer taste than say V60? I noticed something like that from the Kantan drippers and the Wave coffees I've had at my local roastery.

 

[Mick]

Not familiar with the Bunn to be honest, but guess you may be referring to a rounder, richer taste than say V60? I noticed something like that from the Kantan drippers and the Wave coffees I've had at my local roastery.

There are 3 major filter shapes

60° cone (Chemex, Hario) 90° cone
60° modified cone, flat bottom (Melitta)
Flat bottom fluted sides (Bunn)

Each of these impart a distinct taste as the grounds are presented differently to the water. 60° and 90° cone (Chemex) present a deep grounds base. Modified cone (Melitta) present a shallower base. Flat bottom (Bunn) is the shallowest base with the widest top.

Been a while and not sure if I wrote about this in the past but I find that the same coffee brewed in each of these filter styles gives a different taste/flavor when brewed using the same ratio.

 

[StillShaving]

Using the same coffee for pour-over & espresso is something I'll be doing a lot more of now with the Niche. (Once I've had sufficient practice on the LP - I'm not consistent yet.) The Niche makes it super-easy to switch grinds and return to exactly where you were - I've done 2 pour-overs recently using the ingenious Kalita Kantan dripper things. Both really tasty. Having never really done this before I'll be interested to see how the flavours compare - I hope different and better than just watering down an espresso.

I think you will really like switching things up. My coffee routine changes, but recently I have been enjoying pour-over coffee in the morning with breakfast, then Americanos after lunch.

 

[garyg]

I'm on my second Baratza Encore - I don't do expresso so it works a treat with a perc or drip grind. Does tolerable for the moka when I use that too.

 

[Mick]

I'm on my second Baratza Encore - I don't do expresso so it works a treat with a perc or drip grind. Does tolerable for the moka when I use that too.

What happened to your 1st one?