New grinder needed

[1Speedster]

Oh, man, @MurderousCrow so sorry to hear about the huge effort needed to hand grind lighter roasted beans using the OE Pharos. I wish I had mentioned this issue but maybe didn't realize you had your SO to consider.

Every morning, I realize I'm getting a tremendous arm workout making 4 cups of coffee using the Lido E-T hand grinder. And, my workout results from much easier to grind medium roast Costa Rican. My wiser best friend frequently reminded me of the work done by an electric grinder to render those very hard beans into grinds suitable for brewing. If only you had heard his frequent refrain any one of the 100s of times he told me the joke. Engineers and their humor!

As for static, I empathize; we have very dry air here nearly always, and my grinds make a mess of the counter and require brushing out of the Lido E-T anti-static grind cup (at least until the beans stale sufficiently). Even when I had converted my Fiorenzato to single dosing, a tool still came in handy to clear the grinds retention in the delivery chute just pass the conical burr-set.

No wonder manual hand grinders comprise such a niche market.

 

[1Speedster]

You ought to see the sheer size of the capacitors incorporated into the 110/120V Fiorenzato Doge Conico. Most every other titan conical grinder operates exclusively at 220/230V.

Grinding coffee beans ain't easy....unless you have a coffee grinder that is plugged into an electrical socket.

 

[Teryaki]

Grinding coffee beans ain't easy....unless you have a coffee grinder that is plugged into an electrical socket.

Ain’t that the truth!

And @MurderousCrow whatever you do, don’t get a Mazzer even if you find one in your budget. At that price point an anfim would be so much better. Also, I’m taking sides with everyone recommending the sette, if you’re primarily doing espresso, that’s most likely your best bet!

 

[MurderousCrow]

@1Speedster appreciate the empathy. I'm kicking myself really, as I saw Doug of Orphan Espresso putting some real effort into it on one video. Yeah it ground fast but he was wellying it. OTOH I'd seen videos online of people using the Pharos that made it look pretty OK, but I now realise that either their grinders were much more broken in than mine (unlikely to make that much of a difference I feel) or that they were using darker roasts than I tend to like.

@Teryaki I've eased up on budgetary considerations to a large degree. The phenomenal espressos I've had at home over the last few weeks have reminded me how important good coffee is to me. Despite the frustrations, I have really enjoyed my morning ritual of late, so I'm prepared to take the hit of selling the Pharos on and invest what's needed for a really good electric grinder. Fully aware I'm going round in circles here (pun intended) as it's not as if I wasn't warned. But I really did underestimate the power needed to grind light roasts.

I did consider an Anfim way back, they are an excellent grinder and now you've reminded me I actually used one. But I want the ability to single-dose with a truly low retention grinder, thus being able to easily switch between caf / decaf beans during the day, and experiment more with different beans through the week; not needing to purge and having minimal waste. I think it may be a matter of time before a Niche Zero appears on my counter top, but I'd like a chance to try one before I buy. It's getting very positive user experience reviews on the forums, and great reviews from industry bigwigs.

 

[StillShaving]

Good feedback @MurderousCrow. I do not think the OE Pharos will get much easier to turn, unless you decide to go for a bit darker roasts. I use mine mostly for City+ or Full City and find it acceptable, but I understand how your partner might not like it when grinding lighter roasts. I believe this is why Doug (Orphan Espresso) used a relatively long handle to generate more leverage since those burrs grind beans with fewer rotations that most other grinders.

The OE Lido might have been a better choice for you. The grind output is nearly as good IMO and grinds more slowly, so more rotations are needed for the same amount of coffee which reduces/spreads-out the forces needed. Also it can be used sitting down held between the thighs, or pinned against the body at an angle using a bicycle stroke. Though the handle is shorter so not as much leverage is generated, so it may not reduce the effort enough to make a difference.

I am a little surprised you are seeing that much grind retention. My older Pharos has the internal funnel but does not seem to hold much behind...except that I also need to spank it with an open hand to get it all to fall out of the funnel so in that sense there is excessive grind retention until it is given 2 or 3 spanks, after which it there is practically none.

 

[DCRIII]

It's nothing fancy like the all the other grinders you gentlemen are talking about, but I repurposed the Baby Bullet blender we received when my daughter was born about 6 years ago. I obviously don't need to make baby food anymore so waste not want not. It's now a pretty decent coffee grinder for a regular run of the mill drip machine.
At the time, a full set was $50 but I believe they can be had for less now.

 

[MurderousCrow]

Good feedback @MurderousCrow. I do not think the OE Pharos will get much easier to turn, unless you decide to go for a bit darker roasts. I use mine mostly for City+ or Full City and find it acceptable, but I understand how your partner might not like it when grinding lighter roasts. I believe this is why Doug (Orphan Espresso) used a relatively long handle to generate more leverage since those burrs grind beans with fewer rotations that most other grinders.

The OE Lido might have been a better choice for you. The grind output is nearly as good IMO and grinds more slowly, so more rotations are needed for the same amount of coffee which reduces/spreads-out the forces needed. Also it can be used sitting down held between the thighs, or pinned against the body at an angle using a bicycle stroke. Though the handle is shorter so not as much leverage is generated, so it may not reduce the effort enough to make a difference.

I am a little surprised you are seeing that much grind retention. My older Pharos has the internal funnel but does not seem to hold much behind...except that I also need to spank it with an open hand to get it all to fall out of the funnel so in that sense there is excessive grind retention until it is given 2 or 3 spanks, after which it there is practically none.

I think you're probably right, the Pharos is unlikely to get significantly easier to use with the beans I like.

I dismissed the Lido E and other hand-held grinders on the time needed to grind 2+ shots. Just takes too long! Quality of grind, build quality and speed remain big factors for me, so it seems a high end electric grinder is inevitable really.

On the retention I was really surprised too! It is all down to static, it seems I'm using a bean which is particularly prone to static and I guess the air is quite dry in my kitchen. I thump the thing pretty vigorously after grinding and the clumps stubbornly remain... They deposit themselves on the spring plate at some point when they feel like getting off! Adding water droplets hasn't particularly helped, so I'm thinking about trying to earth the thing, just as an experiment really.

@DCRIII I appreciate the thought! While a blade grinder can do OK for drip, the huge variation in particle size they produce (from extremely fine dust to big chunks) makes it impossible for them to grind for espresso, where a very tight spread of small grind particle sizes is needed. Because espresso is brewed over a very short time at high pressure (anything from around 4 to 11bar!) the small particles will rapidly over-extract, the chunks will under-extract and the coffee will taste really, really unpleasant. Even if you can get it to extract for more than a second or two, which is unlikely.

The whole espresso hobby is based on marginal gains and diminishing returns on investment... one needs to spend a fair bit to get something roughly capable, and spend far more if you want something arguably only a little bit better. Like any hobby it's about deciding how much those gains are worth to you; but believe me if a baby food blender worked as well as or better than the grinders I'm considering, one would have pride of place in my kitchen already

 

[texh]

have you looked into Quamar m80E? its commercial level grinder but not the price tag

 

[Venom8431]

I am part of a La Pavoni group and the most popular grinders are:

Hand: Lido E and Apollo
Electric: Niche Zero, Euerka Mignon, Mazzer Mini, Baratza Sette

I own a Niche and love it. Consistent grind and is capable of grinding for other brew methods. On top of that it is very small and VERY quiet. Others with more grinder experience have said it does not produce as much clarity for espresso. This is my first espresso level grinder and can't comment.

I almost got a Eureka Mignon as they too have a small footprint and are very popular within my Pavoni group. They have a huge line of models running the gamut in price and offer a huge range of colors if that matters. I believe most if not all models use flat burr burr grinders.

If you go the hand grinder route it doesn't look like you can go wrong with either the Apollo or Lido E.

 

[ruckin]

I have a Mazzer Mini that I have used to ground hundreds of lbs of beans (I buy my greens in 50kg bags). I just moved to a new house and it seems like it is clumping a bit more than it used to. But it may be that I am becoming more critical of the grinder as I have sort of convinced myself that I really want a larger conical grinder (currently looking at Compak F10 or E10).

That said the MM has served me well over the years. It has worn out two sets of burrs and is working on a third set now. Mine is an older version with just a simple on/off switch instead of the rotary timer switch they seem to come with now.

 

[FarmerTan]

I am part of a La Pavoni group and the most popular grinders are:

Hand: Lido E and Apollo
Electric: Niche Zero, Euerka Mignon, Mazzer Mini, Baratza Sette

I own a Niche and love it. Consistent grind and is capable of grinding for other brew methods. On top of that it is very small and VERY quiet. Others with more grinder experience have said it does not produce as much clarity for espresso. This is my first espresso level grinder and can't comment.

I almost got a Eureka Mignon as they too have a small footprint and are very popular within my Pavoni group. They have a huge line of models running the gamut in price and offer a huge range of colors if that matters. I believe most if not all models use flat burr burr grinders.

If you go the hand grinder route it doesn't look like you can go wrong with either the Apollo or Lido E.

How hard is it to hand grind. I seriously would like to know, I'm a complete noob. I am thinking of this as a hobby, I mean, I drink just 2 cups a day, on average.

I have a Mazzer Mini that I have used to ground hundreds of lbs of beans (I buy my greens in 50kg bags). I just moved to a new house and it seems like it is clumping a bit more than it used to. But it may be that I am becoming more critical of the grinder as I have sort of convinced myself that I really want a larger conical grinder (currently looking at Compak F10 or E10).

That said the MM has served me well over the years. It has worn out two sets of burrs and is working on a third set now. Mine is an older version with just a simple on/off switch instead of the rotary timer switch they seem to come with now.

Have you ever roasted on a stove top, with a "Whirly Pop" I think it is called. We use it to pop corn. Love it!!

 

[ruckin]

@FarmerTan I have not personally used the stove top for roasting but my dad roasts his coffee that way. He uses a cast iron dutch oven and drilled two holes in the lid. One in the center for a "sweeper" and the other hole to for temperature. It took a bit to get the stove settings, timings and how fast to stir down but it seems to work and he is happy.

I have used a series of various roasters over the years. I think my first was an alpenrost then a handful of various consumer models. My brother snagged a 2kg Ambex and I would drive over to his house every 10-14 days and roast. Eventually after a series of scheduling snafus a mill city 2kg roaster showed up at my house.

I think as a hobby or experiment there are numerous ways to roast coffee. If your household consumption is a couple cups of coffee a day it might not be to onerous to stove top roast or even use an air popper (or similar).

One thing to consider is once the roast is done you will want to cool your beans ASAP. An easy low tech way to do this is use a strainer or colander and place a box fan below it to suck cool air through the beans. Or a spread out on a mesh covered cookie sheet would do a pretty good job as well.

Ruckin (sorry about taking this thread down a rabbit hole)

 

[Venom8431]

@FarmerTan I have no personal experience with hand grinders. Those that I know with hand grinders have no problem with it. Many that do hand grind do so for a handful of reasons.

1) More bang for your buck. A $200 hand grinder can rival an electric 3-4 times its cost.
2) Space saving. Sizes range from small to medium sized pepper mills.
3) Quit. Noise is a big factor for some and the lack of a motor really helps.
4) Ease of use. Most if not all hand grinder owners are only grinding for 1-2 cups a day. For La Pavoni users, that's on average 14-16g per shot depending on a few factors. That probably takes 30 seconds or less to grind. For a modern machine with or for pour over your probably looking at 18-20g which will add a negligible amount of time to grinding.

 

[FarmerTan]

Thanks you guys. I really appreciate it. The War Department..... probably not so much.
But since she likes to fight, let's give her a nice reason.

Too bad she don't drink coffee.

 

[MurderousCrow]

Hello all

Minor update - the Pharos has become a little easier to use, however I'm quite annoyed that the 3mm Allen bolt which secures the gringer setting, has started to round out quite badly. This despite using an aftermarket hex key from a reputable tool maker. I may have been over-tightening it, however I did experience slip in the grind setting when it was torqued less. Didn't expect this, esp. after just a few weeks' use! I will email Doug and Barb for advice and a replacement part.

My partner bought me a Kruve sifter for Christmas. This gadget uses a 3-plate system to sift coffee into a desired range: the sieve for the fine end of the desired range goes in the bottom plate, and the coarse end sieve in the top. You put the grounds in the top and shake away, theory being that after you've sifted you end up with the right stuff in the middle plate. It's quite messy to use and more than a bit of a faff, however produces really wonderful espresso.

I've got the 6-sieve model, and am using the 300nm sieve on the bottom and the 600nm on top. Maybe not quite right for espresso but those are the sieves I have. With the Pharos set to a fairly tight grind, I end up with the vast majority of grinds in the middle - I lose about 7-8g to fines and boulders from a 25g initial dose.

The coffee is incredible. With the fines out of the picture, espresso can blonde out for quite a while before it becomes unpleasant. I can easily extract at 3.5:1 or higher ratio of espresso to dose weight, and it produces clear, sweet and vibrant flavours with barely a hint of bitterness.

 

[psfred]

My old manual standby is a hand grinder of the type seen in Western's, acquired by my uncle in around 1930 from the rooming house he was living in that was sold for demolition. I have no idea how old it is, I've made one replacement drawer for it, and will make another that actually fits this time. Probably pre-1900. Not particularly fast, a bit erratic on the grind for espresso (the center burr is lopsided).

I have a nearly identical replacement I bought in the 80's that does a better job with espresso grinds because the burrs are symetrical, but it's slower.

Both do a good job if you have the time and arm power, but for regular use I have a Capresso grinder. Conical burrs, pretty fast, reasonably quiet, and so far very reliable. Nothing fancy, but quite substantial and heavy. It should last forever in household use, which means one to three batches ground a day.

 

[MurderousCrow]

Quick update on this for anyone contemplating buying an OE Pharos:

I wanted to send the unit back, as I was (and remain) dismayed at the speed with which the adjustment bolt rounded out. However I really should have checked the fine print on returns before buying - I hadn't spotted the 15% 'restock charge', so coupling that with the postage fees I would be massively out of pocket. In the UK such fees are unheard of: if it's likely a manufacturing fault the company are obligated to replace or refund free of charge.

OE sent me a replacement adjustment collar, gratis. This was appreciated, however immediately on receiving the part I checked it against two newly-bought high quality 3mm Allen keys, and there was significant play evident in the interface.

I suspect it's actually a 1/8 bolt (3.5mm, not 3mm). So I've ordered a 1/8 Allen key to see if that helps. Nevertheless the bolt quality is poor, the metal rounds very easily even at low torque settings, so I will look to replace it with a hardened metric equivalent.

If anyone's interested I can post up the minimum torque settings I've found necessary to prevent collar slip with light-roasted coffees, I have them around somewhere.

Summary of this grinder:

- Grind quality is excellent.
- It's hard work with light roasts and you'll almost certainly need something to dog it to a bench or worktop.
- The adjustment system is not great out of the box: before installing put some copper-slip on the bolt and use caution torquing it up.
- Don't expect sympathy from Doug & Barb if you round out the bolt.

 

[FarmerTan]

Quick update on this for anyone contemplating buying an OE Pharos:

I wanted to send the unit back, as I was (and remain) dismayed at the speed with which the adjustment bolt rounded out. However I really should have checked the fine print on returns before buying - I hadn't spotted the 15% 'restock charge', so coupling that with the postage fees I would be massively out of pocket. In the UK such fees are unheard of: if it's likely a manufacturing fault the company are obligated to replace or refund free of charge.

OE sent me a replacement adjustment collar, gratis. This was appreciated, however immediately on receiving the part I checked it against two newly-bought high quality 3mm Allen keys, and there was significant play evident in the interface.

I suspect it's actually a 1/8 bolt (3.5mm, not 3mm). So I've ordered a 1/8 Allen key to see if that helps. Nevertheless the bolt quality is poor, the metal rounds very easily even at low torque settings, so I will look to replace it with a hardened metric equivalent.

If anyone's interested I can post up the minimum torque settings I've found necessary to prevent collar slip with light-roasted coffees, I have them around somewhere.

Summary of this grinder:

- Grind quality is excellent.
- It's hard work with light roasts and you'll almost certainly need something to dog it to a bench or worktop.
- The adjustment system is not great out of the box: before installing put some copper-slip on the bolt and use caution torquing it up.
- Don't expect sympathy from Doug & Barb if you round out the bolt.

Sad to hear about the "sympathetic" customer service my friend.

 

[jmudrick]

Apollo serving me well. Setting will occasionally change without me noticing so have to remember to double check before grinding but that's about it .

Sent from my LG-US998 using Tapatalk

 

[MurderousCrow]

Sad to hear about the "sympathetic" customer service my friend.

Thanks - had I been switched-on enough to scan the terms and conditions I probably wouldn't have bought it, but hey you live and learn.

Once the adjustment collar is sorted I will be happy enough with it for a while. Currently it's on a one size fits all setting, and I'm using my Kruve sifter on what comes out. It works, but you don't expect to have to make do when you've paid so much for a hand mill.