I checked it.Still about 500 euros.
New grinder needed
- Thread starter MurderousCrow
- Start date
Ha! Yeah, store #2 had a really nice vintage lever machine but all the ambiance in the world makes up little for the dreck they serve. Thankfully, Nordstroms came to the rescue with their cart service.
I got supremely lucky in my titan conical grinder hunt finding a close-out sale at 1st-Line for Fiorenzato Dogé Conico grinders for $700. Bought 2 immediately after a quick double check, one going to a very close friend who also graduated to Speedster thanks to peer pressure. Next day 1st-Line adjusts the price upwards to $1100. Woops.
Speaking of which I need to go bring that grinder into single dosing service whenever I find excuse to bug him. He’s got an entire “wing” off his kitchen (sort of a 2-door pass-thru pantry that also houses his coffee kit) for coffee madness. Plenty enough room to sit my Dogé I am guessing.
Wow 72mm conical burrs... that is even bigger than the Compak (I think they are 67-68mm). But when you get into that size range I suspect it doesn't make a huge difference.
I have lusted after a speedster for a looong time but fell in with a bad crowd that was developing what would become the GS3 so when it came out I had to get one. Like you said peer pressure can do weird stuff sometimes. At this point I am not sure what I would "upgrade" to except to look for a more manual machine. I like the Slayer except the hot water spout is not mixed like it is on the LaMarzocco machines and people in my house seem to use the tea outlet alot. Maybe I should spend some time looking at the parts diagrams and see if I can convert my group head to the paddle version.
Ruckin.
I have lusted after a speedster for a looong time but fell in with a bad crowd that was developing what would become the GS3 so when it came out I had to get one. Like you said peer pressure can do weird stuff sometimes. At this point I am not sure what I would "upgrade" to except to look for a more manual machine. I like the Slayer except the hot water spout is not mixed like it is on the LaMarzocco machines and people in my house seem to use the tea outlet alot. Maybe I should spend some time looking at the parts diagrams and see if I can convert my group head to the paddle version.
Ruckin.
Yes. My bad. It's available for $613 US.
- Thread starter
- #45
Hi all,
Apologies for the long and late update - and thanks to all for the interesting discussion. Things have changed a bit since my OP! The taxman provided me an unexpected rebate - not enough to buy me a Londinium or Profitec 800 lever, but significantly upping my budget. This presented a new quandary, albeit a nice one to have
I now had enough money for an HG-1 grinder: as I said I've aspired to one of these for years, but expense was and remains a huge issue. Buying one would blow the budget, so it would have to be used with my Rancilio Silvia. Given I'm unlikely to be able to justify a good lever espresso machine anytime soon, I decided that the mismatch between the capabilities of the grinder and the Silvia would grate on me. Silvia is capable, but everything has to be 'just so': grind, distribution and tamp perfect, temperature surf the boiler, etc, etc. Otherwise you just make a lot of sink shots, and I hate waste.
As per OP, what I want is simply this - consistently excellent espresso. While such is certainly achievable with the Silvia, it's difficult and the idiosyncrasies add significant time to the process of pulling a shot. I realised that with care and luck, I could now afford a good second-hand dual-boiler or HX machine, if I kept my grinder spend at or somewhere near my original target. Such a machine would provide quicker and far more consistent espresso, with the bonus of the ability to steam nice drinks for guests (as well as silky hot chocolate for the kids!).
My partner was of the opinion that I should get what I really wanted, and leave her out of the equation - if the coffee was good she'd try to learn to use whatever I bought, or just default to supermarket-bought pour over. Happy days - ease of use was far less of an issue now.
The point @1Speedster made about buying the best grinder one can afford is a good one. I listed the factors that define 'best' for me: grind quality, then proven build quality, then speed. I researched the Vario, Eureka Mignon and Niche Zero extensively (sadly I only got to physically try the Vario 270) and decided against them all on the basis of one factor or another. While the differences are probably negligible, it means enough to me to want something that produces 'best', and adequate to good isn't what I want.
So by this point I'd already been reconsidering hand grinders. HG-1 dismissed on cost; Kinu, Apollo, Lido ET and others dismissed on the basis of speed. While they surely make fantastic coffee I often don't have the time or patience for 120+ turns / 2min of grinding per shot. After much thought and further research I decided on the new Orphan Espresso Pharos 2.0.
It's a titan-grade conical burr grinder; I believe it uses the same 68mm Compak burr set referred to by @ruckin here on page 3. The grind quality is on par with the very best grinders available; going by info available on the coffee forums it certainly seems to match if not exceed that of the HG-1, and it will meet the capability of any espresso machine on the market. Build quality - well it's built like a tank. And although it needs effort, it does grind very quickly, as shown by various YouTube videos: 20-odd grams is done in about 30 turns / half a minute or less, which is perfectly acceptable for me: I can work on the second shot while pulling the first. The Pharos' new design also looks significantly easier to use than the 1.0 I'd seen years ago, and with a funnel it now allows grinding directly into the basket.
I prefer single dosing as I only make around 1-4 shots per day. The Pharos with its slow rotary speed and fast grinding is designed for that, avoiding much of the inconsistency at the end of the grind that you get when single dosing with faster-rotating electrical grinders designed for use with a hopper. And of course there's no electrics to go wrong. With all these things considered, I won't need to upgrade the grinder if and when I eventually buy a high-end lever. I pressed the 'confirm order' button late last week, and am awaiting delivery now.
So, to eBay to idly browse semi-autos. And as luck would have it, a perfect machine came up at a reasonable price the day after I ordered my Pharos. It's a Fracino Heavenly. These come up periodically on UK coffee and auction sites. They're UK-made light commercial tank-fed HX machines, built by the same people who make the Londinium range. Big, old-fashioned, well-engineered workhorses that just make good espresso day in day out. Very temperature stable - the E61 thermosyphon group on these doesn't even require a pre-shot purge - with excellent steam capability. I went to the seller's house after confirming my purchase to check everything was fully in order, and take it home - the size and weight of the thing meant collection only. We enjoyed a friendly chat and a couple of nice shots from it.
I then spent an enjoyable afternoon taking the covers off and giving everything a thorough inspection and clean. It's a bit scratched and beat up, it has worked hard since it was built, however everything inside functions perfectly. With a bit of elbow grease it scrubbed up beautifully and now sits glowing in my kitchen. It's kind of steam-punk, kind of kitsch, and my lady loves it.
In use the Heavenly lives up to its name. The very first espresso I pulled from it was ground on a basic stepped ceramic hand grinder, and it yielded a good shot: 18g of Quarter Horse espresso-blend beans into 36g of coffee, pulled over 24-25 seconds. Further shots using the Rocky grinder were acceptable, at least for milk-based drinks, showing that this machine with its E61 group is far more forgiving than the Silvia. I'll now sell the Silvia and Rocky, which will recoup a bit of the money spent too
Really excited to get the new grinder!
Thanks to everyone (if you're still with me!); I can only apologise for the drift in intent since I began the thread. Your thoughts have all been extremely useful, helping me to make a decision about what is wanted. With your input, and some degree of luck, I feel I've found a combination which will provide exactly what I want.
Luke
Apologies for the long and late update - and thanks to all for the interesting discussion. Things have changed a bit since my OP! The taxman provided me an unexpected rebate - not enough to buy me a Londinium or Profitec 800 lever, but significantly upping my budget. This presented a new quandary, albeit a nice one to have
I now had enough money for an HG-1 grinder: as I said I've aspired to one of these for years, but expense was and remains a huge issue. Buying one would blow the budget, so it would have to be used with my Rancilio Silvia. Given I'm unlikely to be able to justify a good lever espresso machine anytime soon, I decided that the mismatch between the capabilities of the grinder and the Silvia would grate on me. Silvia is capable, but everything has to be 'just so': grind, distribution and tamp perfect, temperature surf the boiler, etc, etc. Otherwise you just make a lot of sink shots, and I hate waste.
As per OP, what I want is simply this - consistently excellent espresso. While such is certainly achievable with the Silvia, it's difficult and the idiosyncrasies add significant time to the process of pulling a shot. I realised that with care and luck, I could now afford a good second-hand dual-boiler or HX machine, if I kept my grinder spend at or somewhere near my original target. Such a machine would provide quicker and far more consistent espresso, with the bonus of the ability to steam nice drinks for guests (as well as silky hot chocolate for the kids!).
My partner was of the opinion that I should get what I really wanted, and leave her out of the equation - if the coffee was good she'd try to learn to use whatever I bought, or just default to supermarket-bought pour over. Happy days - ease of use was far less of an issue now.
The point @1Speedster made about buying the best grinder one can afford is a good one. I listed the factors that define 'best' for me: grind quality, then proven build quality, then speed. I researched the Vario, Eureka Mignon and Niche Zero extensively (sadly I only got to physically try the Vario 270) and decided against them all on the basis of one factor or another. While the differences are probably negligible, it means enough to me to want something that produces 'best', and adequate to good isn't what I want.
So by this point I'd already been reconsidering hand grinders. HG-1 dismissed on cost; Kinu, Apollo, Lido ET and others dismissed on the basis of speed. While they surely make fantastic coffee I often don't have the time or patience for 120+ turns / 2min of grinding per shot. After much thought and further research I decided on the new Orphan Espresso Pharos 2.0.
It's a titan-grade conical burr grinder; I believe it uses the same 68mm Compak burr set referred to by @ruckin here on page 3. The grind quality is on par with the very best grinders available; going by info available on the coffee forums it certainly seems to match if not exceed that of the HG-1, and it will meet the capability of any espresso machine on the market. Build quality - well it's built like a tank. And although it needs effort, it does grind very quickly, as shown by various YouTube videos: 20-odd grams is done in about 30 turns / half a minute or less, which is perfectly acceptable for me: I can work on the second shot while pulling the first. The Pharos' new design also looks significantly easier to use than the 1.0 I'd seen years ago, and with a funnel it now allows grinding directly into the basket.
I prefer single dosing as I only make around 1-4 shots per day. The Pharos with its slow rotary speed and fast grinding is designed for that, avoiding much of the inconsistency at the end of the grind that you get when single dosing with faster-rotating electrical grinders designed for use with a hopper. And of course there's no electrics to go wrong. With all these things considered, I won't need to upgrade the grinder if and when I eventually buy a high-end lever. I pressed the 'confirm order' button late last week, and am awaiting delivery now.
So, to eBay to idly browse semi-autos. And as luck would have it, a perfect machine came up at a reasonable price the day after I ordered my Pharos. It's a Fracino Heavenly. These come up periodically on UK coffee and auction sites. They're UK-made light commercial tank-fed HX machines, built by the same people who make the Londinium range. Big, old-fashioned, well-engineered workhorses that just make good espresso day in day out. Very temperature stable - the E61 thermosyphon group on these doesn't even require a pre-shot purge - with excellent steam capability. I went to the seller's house after confirming my purchase to check everything was fully in order, and take it home - the size and weight of the thing meant collection only. We enjoyed a friendly chat and a couple of nice shots from it.
I then spent an enjoyable afternoon taking the covers off and giving everything a thorough inspection and clean. It's a bit scratched and beat up, it has worked hard since it was built, however everything inside functions perfectly. With a bit of elbow grease it scrubbed up beautifully and now sits glowing in my kitchen. It's kind of steam-punk, kind of kitsch, and my lady loves it.
In use the Heavenly lives up to its name. The very first espresso I pulled from it was ground on a basic stepped ceramic hand grinder, and it yielded a good shot: 18g of Quarter Horse espresso-blend beans into 36g of coffee, pulled over 24-25 seconds. Further shots using the Rocky grinder were acceptable, at least for milk-based drinks, showing that this machine with its E61 group is far more forgiving than the Silvia. I'll now sell the Silvia and Rocky, which will recoup a bit of the money spent too
Really excited to get the new grinder!
Thanks to everyone (if you're still with me!); I can only apologise for the drift in intent since I began the thread. Your thoughts have all been extremely useful, helping me to make a decision about what is wanted. With your input, and some degree of luck, I feel I've found a combination which will provide exactly what I want.
Luke
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Very good.
Nice to see more people buying used.
Think of it as recycling, not settling.
Nice to see more people buying used.
Think of it as recycling, not settling.
- Thread starter
- #47
Certainly
I think buying second hand has many advantages - it does require care and luck to avoid being stung and sure this happens. But overall there's a cost saving, and it's definitely a little better for the environment... And true quality lasts.Another big plus for me with the Heavenly is that Fracino are based in my city, and their after-sales support is second to none.
Having checked my tracking number, my Pharos is now in London (via Missoula and San Francisco). It's a shame I'm away again with work; it'll arrive home a long time before me!
I have a Pharos 1.x so I will be interested in your comments about the 2.0. I almost bought his upgrade kit but then speculated whether it really addressed the only/primary issue I had with the grinder which was difficulty in making small adjustments in a repeatable fashion. Though the tighter pitch adjustment bolt used on later models should make it easier than what I have.
- Thread starter
- #49
Making small adjustments is definitely one of the things I'm looking forward to, about moving to a proper espresso grinder after the Rocky (even after applying a mod with Teflon tape on the burr carrier, that thing was far too blunt a tool to make small adjustments. Like trying to play drums with a mallet). On a daily basis I'll be making standard espresso and lattes in the morning, then using decaf beans for drinks after midday; if repeatability doesn't play well, it will need to go back. I've read good things about the Pharos 2.0 in this regard, can't remember which forum I was browsing though... I will certainly update with some pics and comments when I get my hands on it.
- Thread starter
- #50
Some extra goodies arriving soon: IMS competition shower screen, PUSH tamper, silicone E61 group gasket. The first two should go a long way to ensuring consistency, while the latter will probably clean up the taste a bit, as the gasket is starting to degrade. And some Puly-Caf - when I cleaned the Heavenly's group it was caked with muck, so the solenoid needs a little more than just water backflushing.
And my partner has been asking if she can buy us a milk jug with thermometer - she wants training on the new kit too! Seems my amateurish milk frothing was sufficient to produce drinks she really liked, so she'll likely be dialling in the new Pharos before me
I seriously need to spend some time learning to stretch milk. While I could get a reasonable microfoam on my Silvia (I last did this years ago mind you), I'm struggling on the new machine. How much that's due to using a standard kitchen Pyrex rather than a proper milk jug I don't know. Try as I might to keep the tip of the wand in the optimal position (hahaha) suddenly it just blows up like a bad shaving cream! Premature frothulation!
And my partner has been asking if she can buy us a milk jug with thermometer - she wants training on the new kit too! Seems my amateurish milk frothing was sufficient to produce drinks she really liked, so she'll likely be dialling in the new Pharos before me
I seriously need to spend some time learning to stretch milk. While I could get a reasonable microfoam on my Silvia (I last did this years ago mind you), I'm struggling on the new machine. How much that's due to using a standard kitchen Pyrex rather than a proper milk jug I don't know. Try as I might to keep the tip of the wand in the optimal position (hahaha) suddenly it just blows up like a bad shaving cream! Premature frothulation!
- Thread starter
- #51
Second shot on the Heavenly. Inaugural shot was a cappuccino for my partner - I'd ground it on a basic ceramic burr hand grinder and by a mixture of luck and experience with the Silvia, managed to hit a pretty decent extraction for her brew. This second shot wasn't too bad at all! Slightly bitter, it blonded a bit early for me so it became a nice long black when I watered it down a little. 18g of Quarter Horse Coffee's Dark Horse espresso blend into about 36g of coffee, over 24 seconds. Used a VST triple basket out of pure habit, probably should have used a double.
I am by no means an expert so grab a grain or two of salt. I don't use a thermometer. I try to use sound as my guide. I steam in a little stainless pitcher and have learned over time when the milk is up the the right temperature. If you are using pyrex or glass it will heat up slower but can probably get a feel for when it is hot enough.
Now if I can just learn to make proper latte art rather than look at it afterwards decide hey that looks like a chicken, paw print, or maybe a cloud.
Ruckin.
Now if I can just learn to make proper latte art rather than look at it afterwards decide hey that looks like a chicken, paw print, or maybe a cloud.
Ruckin.
- Thread starter
- #53
Th
Using the Silvia, sound was reliable... With the milk rotating you could get that nice little hiss to entrain the air you want, then just bury the wand to get the milk up to temp... Trying the same with this machine is totally different. The slightest error is punished with abundant foam!! I think more practice is definitely required! Also, browsing the UK espresso forums, a few home users of my machine have bemoaned the excessive power of the steam wand for small volumes of milk. So for the sake of just a few quid, a 2-hole steam tip (as opposed to the current standard 4-hole one) seemed a sensible investment so one's in the post. It can't hurt - even the pyrex jug gets uncomfortably hand hot in very little time... I've had a decent microfoam once, out of about 6-7 tries. One of the forum users said the Heavenly 'produces steam like the Flying Scotsman'. Wouldn't go that far but I get the point. It's possibly a bit excessive for foaming up 120ml of milk. One advantage of being away with work for a couple of weeks is that all the upgrade kit should be there once I'm home
Thank you.
Using the Silvia, sound was reliable... With the milk rotating you could get that nice little hiss to entrain the air you want, then just bury the wand to get the milk up to temp... Trying the same with this machine is totally different. The slightest error is punished with abundant foam!! I think more practice is definitely required! Also, browsing the UK espresso forums, a few home users of my machine have bemoaned the excessive power of the steam wand for small volumes of milk. So for the sake of just a few quid, a 2-hole steam tip (as opposed to the current standard 4-hole one) seemed a sensible investment so one's in the post. It can't hurt - even the pyrex jug gets uncomfortably hand hot in very little time... I've had a decent microfoam once, out of about 6-7 tries. One of the forum users said the Heavenly 'produces steam like the Flying Scotsman'. Wouldn't go that far but I get the point. It's possibly a bit excessive for foaming up 120ml of milk. One advantage of being away with work for a couple of weeks is that all the upgrade kit should be there once I'm home
- Thread starter
- #54
Haha yeah a struggle I know well and somehow it feels like you're not a proper barista til you can do that stuff on demand - sure that's not just me is it
I about got to the stage where I could do dodgy, thin little heart shapes. That took about 6 months of admittedly occasional practice... I lost interest eventually but that was tied up in other life things happening at the time... Despite rarely drinking milky coffee drinks I'm absurdly excited to get learning again.
When I transistioned from home machines (cramena, caferex) to a commercial LaPavoni Pub I was like zomg this things steams super fast! What I didn't realize was that because it uses a needle valve I was kind of cheating and stretching the time out. When I got my GS3 I had an on/off steam valve... I have learned to steam milk quickly and that may be why I suck at latte art. But I can steam a small amount of whole milk and add it to a double shot in a 5oz cup and not be so over full I cant carry it to the table. The other problem I have is that about 25% (or less) of the shots I pull involve steaming milk.
One thing I have learned is that different milks steam very differently. I find a heavy cream or whole cow milk is easier than a skim. I also find that soy, or some of the non animal based milks (soy, almond, etc) can be fragile when steaming. My assumption is the animal based milks (cow, goat) seem to steam easier because of the fat content? When I say fragile it can go from ... not done to burnt really fast. I have also played around with larger volumes trying to make SWMBO the perfect hot chocolate... I don't think I have achieved it yet but she seems quite satisfied and if I am better the next time ... it is all good.
Ruckin.
One thing I have learned is that different milks steam very differently. I find a heavy cream or whole cow milk is easier than a skim. I also find that soy, or some of the non animal based milks (soy, almond, etc) can be fragile when steaming. My assumption is the animal based milks (cow, goat) seem to steam easier because of the fat content? When I say fragile it can go from ... not done to burnt really fast. I have also played around with larger volumes trying to make SWMBO the perfect hot chocolate... I don't think I have achieved it yet but she seems quite satisfied and if I am better the next time ... it is all good.
Ruckin.
- Thread starter
- #57
You're much further down the path than me. But yeah different milks do steam really differently! I've never managed to make microfoam with non-animal milks. Just hot liquid with some thin foam on top. To be fair that also describes nearly all of my latest efforts with standard milks too. I had read somewhere that skimmed or 2% was best so I haven't recently tried using full-fat or heavy cream, I will give that a go when I get home
Thank you
I was really pleased with this; I tried to upload the video it came from but it kept being rejected due to file type... Not sure if B&B allows video of any kind but this was an MP4.2% milks steam the best for me.
If you like the taste of whole or cream, just add a little to the coffee before adding the frothed 2%
If you like the taste of whole or cream, just add a little to the coffee before adding the frothed 2%
- Thread starter
- #59
- Thread starter
- #60
OK. A little update for anyone interested!
I've been using the Pharos for just over 3 weeks. In all honesty it's a mixed picture at this point. First things first: the grind is absolutely top notch - in this it's easily as good as anything I've used including Mythos One, Robur and Kony. I've been getting some great shots from it, despite a steep learning curve.
Physically the Pharos remains hard to use despite running around 4kg of beans through it so far, and using an OE bench dog to help stabilise it on the counter. Grinding full city or dark roasts is very easy, negligible effort really. But as I said, we prefer lighter-roasted coffees and the difference between these is in orders of magnitude... As such it's definitely too much for my partner. This is a shame as she really enjoys our coffees now and has no wish to get back into using supermarket pour-over. I hadn't anticipated quite how difficult the Pharos would be to use - and thought it would be less effort once broken in. Maybe this is still far from done and it will ease up, I have my fingers crossed.
The other big downside is retention, which is surprisingly high - even after banging the grinder hard on the worktop I can usually get a further 2-3g or so out with a brush. This retention is completely down to static buildup at the grinder outlet - I have tried the infamous RDT adding some water droplets to the dose a few times with little success so any other tips would be appreciated.
On the upside the Pharos helps to make fantastic espresso - especially when preparing back-to-back shots. And it grinds very fast in the espresso range: 18g goes through it in less than 20 seconds! @StillShaving to answer your earlier query the Pharos 2.0's grind settings are completely repeatable - as planned I've been using a decaf bean in the evenings and it's very easy to switch between the two settings with no apparent drift.
Currently I'm going to persist with the Pharos and see if the usability / effort issue improves over the next few months. I may be chalking this one up to experience and selling it on. I'm aware I took a risk with this grinder as per previous posts... But the sheer effort to use it with my preferred beans, and the issues with retention are eye-opening. My humble pie is baking in the oven as I re-research the Niche Zero grinder originally suggested by @street. The only things holding me back are stubbornness, hope for improvement with breaking in further - and the Pharos' amazing grind quality which it has to be said is phenomenal.
I've been using the Pharos for just over 3 weeks. In all honesty it's a mixed picture at this point. First things first: the grind is absolutely top notch - in this it's easily as good as anything I've used including Mythos One, Robur and Kony. I've been getting some great shots from it, despite a steep learning curve.
Physically the Pharos remains hard to use despite running around 4kg of beans through it so far, and using an OE bench dog to help stabilise it on the counter. Grinding full city or dark roasts is very easy, negligible effort really. But as I said, we prefer lighter-roasted coffees and the difference between these is in orders of magnitude... As such it's definitely too much for my partner. This is a shame as she really enjoys our coffees now and has no wish to get back into using supermarket pour-over. I hadn't anticipated quite how difficult the Pharos would be to use - and thought it would be less effort once broken in. Maybe this is still far from done and it will ease up, I have my fingers crossed.
The other big downside is retention, which is surprisingly high - even after banging the grinder hard on the worktop I can usually get a further 2-3g or so out with a brush. This retention is completely down to static buildup at the grinder outlet - I have tried the infamous RDT adding some water droplets to the dose a few times with little success so any other tips would be appreciated.
On the upside the Pharos helps to make fantastic espresso - especially when preparing back-to-back shots. And it grinds very fast in the espresso range: 18g goes through it in less than 20 seconds! @StillShaving to answer your earlier query the Pharos 2.0's grind settings are completely repeatable - as planned I've been using a decaf bean in the evenings and it's very easy to switch between the two settings with no apparent drift.
Currently I'm going to persist with the Pharos and see if the usability / effort issue improves over the next few months. I may be chalking this one up to experience and selling it on. I'm aware I took a risk with this grinder as per previous posts... But the sheer effort to use it with my preferred beans, and the issues with retention are eye-opening. My humble pie is baking in the oven as I re-research the Niche Zero grinder originally suggested by @street. The only things holding me back are stubbornness, hope for improvement with breaking in further - and the Pharos' amazing grind quality which it has to be said is phenomenal.
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