Need to construct a progression

[gregory56]

I have these stones:

• Ardennes Select Grade Coticule
• Hard Arkansas
• Black Arkansas

To produce a slurry:

• Nagura slurry stones - Botan, Tenjyou, Mejiro
• Diamond Mini-Sharp Sharpener, Fine

The stones have these limitations: 1) all three whetstones are short -- 6 inches, 2) the coticlule is narrow -- 1.5 inches. I know from experience that using the coticle I lap half the blade at a time (x-strokes introduce variance that I don't like).

I have three SRs with their bevels set but not sharp enough to shave with. I want to use the stones to bring one of them back to usable.

I want the progression to be based on using the Nagura stones and finishing on the Black Arkansas. What combinations of whetstones and slurry stones should I used? For example, can I use a Nagura progression on the Hard Arkansas, then finish on the Black Arkansas using honing oil?

 

[Christian1212]

I would probably do coticule with slurry from botan. Finishing under running water. Then I would do final finishing on the black ark. I suggest though that you pick up a bevel setter, a 3k-6k synthetic, then a 8k-10k synthetic for progression.

 

[JPO]

I have not tried jnat naguras with my coticule for SR honing. I think you need to experiment a little. The diamond plate can be used to create a little rougher surface texture on your coticule. I would not generate slurry with it. The effect of this will depend on your particular coticule.
So you could try starting with your coticule with a fresh surface and slurry from one of your naguras that works the best with your coticule. The slurry will be a combination of garnets released from the base stone and the nagura. Thus, you might not benefit from a finer nagura then the Botan.
Finish with water only and move on to your black Arkansas.
You can always take a step back and do some work on your hard Arkansas. It is always good to limit the number of variables.
Synthetics stones are hard to beat, but it it quite satisfying getting by with natural stones.

Honing in hand is also quite useful when you are working on a narrow stone.

 

[Frank Shaves]

If it were me, I would buy a 3k/4k and 8k synthetic stones. An 8k synthetic is very useful when you need to go back one step before your finisher. And a 3k/4k synthetic is very useful for resetting the bevel of a razor that is/was shave ready.

I have Shapton HR synthetics which I love.

I really appreciated using wider stones (like 70 mm) when I started my journey. Now, I really enjoy hand holding a 6 x 2 or 5 x 2.5 inch stone. It takes practice to learn to hone on a narrower hone, but it is a skill that can be learned. I say this because I recently bought a 125 x 30 mm Coticule for the purpose of learning to hone on a narrower stone, and the experience is already paying off. And, in the long run, you will save money using smaller stones - as if any of us are saving money buying all this stuff .

 

[Wid]

Pick up at coticule slurry stone and learn how to use it. Get the razor shave ready off the coticule then go to your black ark. Really, that’s all you need.

If you want to make it simple. Get a progression of synthetic stones and use either the coticule or black ark as finishers.

I have the Chosera 1/3 and a 8K Snow White that works great.

 

[Bowmaker]

Coticule to the Black Ark works really well. About as simple a progression as it gets for someone like me that prefers to use natural stones.

Slurry on an Ark is counter intuitive to what I want an Ark to do, but you could probably make it work. Interesting to experiment and keep it fun.

I have a similar looking hard from Dan's and it won't improve any of my coticule edges, but I could make it fit depending on when I came off the coticule. YMMV

 

[gregory56]

Coticule to the Black Ark works really well. About as simple a progression as it gets for someone like me that prefers to use natural stones.

Slurry on an Ark is counter intuitive to what I want an Ark to do, but you could probably make it work. Interesting to experiment and keep it fun.

I have a similar looking hard from Dan's and it won't improve any of my coticule edges, but I could make it fit depending on when I came off the coticule. YMMV

Thank you for keeping within the constrains of the question! I’m focused on natural stones right now.

I don’t like the coticule only in that it’s too narrow (I was keeping my costs down but still getting something I could use). It’s a nice stone otherwise. I’ll use it and have developed a procedure for how run a blade across and get an even cut on the bevel surface.

Also, I am trying to find a place in my progression for the Arkansas Hard.

 

[Pedigree]

Thank you for keeping within the constrains of the question! I’m focused on natural stones right now.

I don’t like the coticule only in that it’s too narrow (I was keeping my costs down but still getting something I could use). It’s a nice stone otherwise. I’ll use it and have developed a procedure for how run a blade across and get an even cut on the bevel surface.

Also, I am trying to find a place in my progression for the Arkansas Hard.

I would first learn to hone on the coticule (progression) before moving to the ark for finishing. Learning the coticule will give you a base reference to start from and allow you to better utilize the ark (for finishing). I would start off with heavy slurry to set a bevel, then medium to light slurry diluting and watching the undercut, then plain water. Then move onto the black ark with mineral oil. It works great for me and my edges and its all I use.

 

[Slash McCoy]

I think you are limiting yourself to a degree that will make getting a great edge very difficult. An edge that you can just shave with, sure you can do that. Pick basically any of your nagura and raise a thick slurry for bevel setting on the coti, thin your slurry when your bevel is formed and as you continue to refine it, until you are honing on clear water. Switch to honing under running water or honing with lather or dish soap, as you go lighter and lighter on the pressure. If you nail it, you can get a reasonably comfortable shave right off the coticule. If your black arkie is lapped and burnished, you could use that for a finisher, with dish soap or oil, or maybe a glycerine solution.

Like I said, I think you are severely limiting yourself. If you are absolutely positive that you must be satisfied with the edge you can make with this set of stones, then honestly there really aren't many different ways to go about it. If it is all about honing on naturals, perhaps you would be best served by buying a reasonable sized Jnat and learning to use that. If it is all about keeping costs down by going with what you got, bear in mind that lapping film is pretty cheap and very effective.

 

[gregory56]

I think you are limiting yourself to a degree that will make getting a great edge very difficult. An edge that you can just shave with, sure you can do that. Pick basically any of your nagura and raise a thick slurry for bevel setting on the coti, thin your slurry when your bevel is formed and as you continue to refine it, until you are honing on clear water. Switch to honing under running water or honing with lather or dish soap, as you go lighter and lighter on the pressure. If you nail it, you can get a reasonably comfortable shave right off the coticule. If your black arkie is lapped and burnished, you could use that for a finisher, with dish soap or oil, or maybe a glycerine solution.

Like I said, I think you are severely limiting yourself. If you are absolutely positive that you must be satisfied with the edge you can make with this set of stones, then honestly there really aren't many different ways to go about it. If it is all about honing on naturals, perhaps you would be best served by buying a reasonable sized Jnat and learning to use that. If it is all about keeping costs down by going with what you got, bear in mind that lapping film is pretty cheap and very effective.

Thank you Slash!

So when would I use the Arkansas Hard?

 

[Slash McCoy]

Thank you Slash!

So when would I use the Arkansas Hard?

Do you HAVE to use it? You have a coticule so it is sort of redundant. A hard should come in at like lower mid-range in a progression, is how I feel about it. If you had a soft you would set bevels with that, but the hard probably overlaps the coti, I'm thinking. Maybe someone with a wider range of experience with arkies will weigh in on that question. If you didn't have the coticule then the hard's place would be obvious. The hard might be a dandy stone for your kitchen and pocket knives.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

So, yup agree with the advice above, learning to hone with just Arks can be tough, but for hundreds of years folks did just that. A coarse stone and a fine stone.

I doubt that a Jnat nagura progression will add much to the mix, except add more variables. Asano nagura are not grit rated so a “progression” is trial and error. Asano nagura do not work the same on Arks as they do on Jnats, you just have to try them and see if the results are worth the effort and if it is a progression.

Arks depend on the stone quality and stone face finish, you can change the aggression and fine finish ability by changing the stone finish. So, near impossible to tell how your stones will set a bevel and finish.

You can set a bevel on a hard Ark, and you can finish on a hard Black Ark, but a lot will depend on if your black is a hard Black finisher, and how it is finished.

Set the bevel on the Hard Ark and finish on the Black. Lap your Black flat with 60 grit lose Silicone Carbide and finish up to 600 grit and try your black. Do not use your Diamond plate on the Arks, they will just rip out the diamonds. You can use Wet and Dry, but you will go through a lot of sandpaper and spend a lot of time getting flat. A progression of lose Silicone Carbide is $15.

Skip the Coticule and the Nagura, tape the spine as you will be doing a lot of laps. Your bevel is set when you look straight down on the edge and do not see any shiny reflections.

 

[Frank Shaves]

I like how Paul Richmond and Bart Torfs describe the honing process in The Dilucot Method on coticule.be. Four stages: bevel setting, bevel correction, dilution and finishing. My take is you need to first understand what problem you are trying to solve and then try different solutions. If you just want to touch up a razor, there is no need to go back to the bevel setting or bevel correction stage.

 

[gregory56]

So, yup agree with the advice above, learning to hone with just Arks can be tough, but for hundreds of years folks did just that. A coarse stone and a fine stone.

I doubt that a Jnat nagura progression will add much to the mix, except add more variables. Asano nagura are not grit rated so a “progression” is trial and error. Asano nagura do not work the same on Arks as they do on Jnats, you just have to try them and see if the results are worth the effort and if it is a progression.

Arks depend on the stone quality and stone face finish, you can change the aggression and fine finish ability by changing the stone finish. So, near impossible to tell how your stones will set a bevel and finish.

You can set a bevel on a hard Ark, and you can finish on a hard Black Ark, but a lot will depend on if your black is a hard Black finisher, and how it is finished.

Set the bevel on the Hard Ark and finish on the Black. Lap your Black flat with 60 grit lose Silicone Carbide and finish up to 600 grit and try your black. Do not use your Diamond plate on the Arks, they will just rip out the diamonds. You can use Wet and Dry, but you will go through a lot of sandpaper and spend a lot of time getting flat. A progression of lose Silicone Carbide is $15.

Skip the Coticule and the Nagura, tape the spine as you will be doing a lot of laps. Your bevel is set when you look straight down on the edge and do not see any shiny reflections.

Lapping and dressing already occurred. The stones are from Dan’s. Read this thread 'lapped and dressed my Arkansas stones'
lapped and dressed my Arkansas stones - https://www.badgerandblade.com/forum/threads/lapped-and-dressed-my-arkansas-stones.634014/

 

[gregory56]

Do you HAVE to use it? You have a coticule so it is sort of redundant. A hard should come in at like lower mid-range in a progression, is how I feel about it. If you had a soft you would set bevels with that, but the hard probably overlaps the coti, I'm thinking. Maybe someone with a wider range of experience with arkies will weigh in on that question. If you didn't have the coticule then the hard's place would be obvious. The hard might be a dandy stone for your kitchen and pocket knives.

I don’t have to use it, but I do have the stone. It’s lapped, dressed and ready for use! I have an unjustified commitment (or stubbornness) to Arkansas stones, but, as you know I’ve dipped by toe in the jnat world and taken a detour into coticules.

 

[gregory56]

A lot has occurred. I'll start by saying, I honed my first razor starting with a burr. What progression did I use? All of the above and then some. I'll update this thread in a few days.

 

[JohnnyWayne203]

My opinion is you'd benefit from getting atleast a couple of synthetic stones. Maybe 4k or 5k and an 8k. Going to coticile with water only after.
This will give you something to shoot for once you decide to play around with slurry on a coticule. When you do decide to play with slurry, I would suggest doing one more dilution when you think it's done. This helped me when I started.
Black Ark after the coticule will work very well. It is a favorite of mine (I have a translucent though, not black).
Unfortunately, I know nothing on Nagura, so can't offer any assistance there.
Put a different edge on each razor, see what you like better. Have fun!!

 

[duke762]

I never achieved true straight shaving Nirvana until I bought a Shapton Pro progression. 1.5, 5, 8, 12K, and finished with a Black/Trans Ark. I struggled to put it all together for absolutely years. Yeah, 4 or more years I struggled. Trying to put together a natural progression with oil. That and an insane aversion to water as a lube for hones, I hampered my progress by not using water stones out of the gate when I started.

If those hones are what you have to work with, I'd trust the Coticules edge to get me onto the Ark. A Coticule can probably do everything for you that, the hard Ark would be hard pressed to perform. If you are new to honing... a 1.5" Coticule may seem like a challenge but it will help you develop your skills and that width is fairly common in the Coticule community IIRC.

I don't know a thing about Nagura but hope to some day. Maybe some one with more exxperience can help there. I'd nail a good progression before experimenting too much. An abbreviated progression may be a hindrance, the skill you develop on the Coticule will most likely be the deciding factor (notice a slight distrust hard Arks, that for me, are higher maintenance than the Coticule. Geez, an Arkaholic touting a Coticule over an Ark). Bring your very best edge to the Ark, or you are spinning your wheels.