Need some new guy help...

[bluemantra]

I just got my first straight and I've been doing a ton of research, but I just have a few questions to help supplement the wiki here. I'm going to be sending my straight off to get honed and I'm looking to get a strop in the meantime. I've been looking at Larry's poor man's strop kit and various beginner set ups. I really want to get a paddle to start with. I was looking at this one from Vintage blades

http://www.vintagebladesllc.com/vshop/xcart/product.php?productid=94&cat=102&page=1

Our Paddle Strop & Razor Stone Combination is imported from Germany. The strop is made of tan Russian finish leather. The razor stone is of a super fine grit, similar to a black Arkansas stone. This is an ideal strop for travel.

Will this work for a beginner strop? I was looking at whether to get a 4 sided paddle and use a progression of pastes on each side, but that can get expensive. Will the reverse side on this paddle serve and in between ground? I'm looking for something that will help me maintain my edge and limit the number of times needing to send the razor out to be honed.

 

[Luc]

I would think that it would work yes. I would recommend a leather strop only or a leather/canvas combo. Not a stone.

Learning how to shave and strop is already a good curve. Also, you will most probably nick that strop, so you don't need a top strop to start with. I do not know the quality of those, I never had one. Someone who used one of those paddle can chip in and have a better idea if they are good to start with or not.

 

[Thebigspendur]

Paddle strops like that are used mostly as travel strops since they are convenient to carry. For a daily use strop I think you would be better off with a classic hanging strop. Just my opinion.

 

[raccoonandbrush]

It looks good to me. I actually prefer a paddle/bench strop over the hanging one. It's much easier to use, plus it's very portable. I have no reason to get a hanging one. See what you think of it.

 

[Luc]

Forgot to mentioned, when you said Wiki, you probably had a look at the straight razor... Did you see the strop page?

http://wiki.badgerandblade.com/index.php/Strops

 

[bluemantra]

Thanks for the help!

@Luc, yes I did see the strop wiki page, thanks.
@raccoonandbrush That was my thinking. I like the idea of the paddle in terms of portability and ease of use as far as not rolling the edge. I guess my question is, does the stone portion serve the same function as a paste? I was also thinking that the paddle would take some of the learning curve out of it in the aspect of keeping the hanging strop taught at all times.

 

[Legion]

I actually think you are on the right track starting with a paddle, and thinking it would help you not roll the edges. My only concern with the ones you are looking at is the physical size. Those would be great to travel with, but you may find it easier to use something larger for every-day use. There is no rule that says a paddle strop need to be small, just most of them are for for travelers so they are scaled down. The ones that I have made for use at home actually have a stropping area about as big as my hanging strops. They work well and are very easy to use.

 

[Alraz]

In my experience, rolled edges are more the result of how the spine is flipped, not of what type of strop is used but I can see that someone would roll the edge by not keeping a hanger tight and/or using too much pressure. All in all, I find that hanging strops are more versatile and work much better.

Al raz.

 

[JeffE]

Beginner's hanging strop is going to be less expensive to start off with, and yes, you will absolutely RUIN the strop when you learn on it. That's why Tony Miller sells a little piece of beginner's leather to go with his strops so that you destroy that practice strop and not his beautiful work on the main strop.

Hanging strop is more useful and will work better for you in the long run, so you might as well learn how to use one now.

 

[Legion]

I'm interested, as someone who uses both hanging and paddle strops, a lot of people claim that a hanging strop works better than a paddle strop.

Assuming that the stropping surface is the same size and the same material is on both, can someone explain to me why a hanging strop would work better than a paddle strop? Because my logic tells me that the flatter, more consistent surface that the paddle provides would be superior.

Or is a hanging strop just better because it is more common? Help me out.

 

[natchez]

I'm interested, as someone who uses both hanging and paddle strops, a lot of people claim that a hanging strop works better than a paddle strop.

Assuming that the stropping surface is the same size and the same material is on both, can someone explain to me why a hanging strop would work better than a paddle strop? Because my logic tells me that the flatter, more consistent surface that the paddle provides would be superior.

Or is a hanging strop just better because it is more common? Help me out.

This is a really good question and one I have thought about, as I have made both paddle and hanging strops and find I can get essentially the same results. So, here are some thoughts. Please, remember, these are just my impressions and opinions and are, of course, open to debate. I figured I would put them out there for the group to discuss.

With a paddle you have more stability, which may be both good and bad. Good because it is easier to not roll the edge and provides a more stable surface. But, perhaps, bad because that same stability could be an issue with "bending" the very thin edge from too much or unequal pressure through a series of strokes.

When I look at most of the older strop types I see here, in auctions, or in junk/antique shops, a majority of them seem to have some "give" built in to the design. Many of the older paddle types have tension adjustments, though not all. And, all of the hanging strops have some give, even if held taught. My little two-sided travel strop also has some give built into the design with a slightly concave wooden middle.

To me, it takes a really good touch to use a paddle strop without any give in it beyond the leather, if put on a hard surface. I think it may be a harder skill to master than a hanging strop for a beginner. It also seemed harder to learn to hone to me than to strop. Again, I would speculate because of the lack of give in a stone and the precision required in the stroke being greater.

My first homemade strop was just a strip of nice leather I used first on the edge of an oak table and then on my thigh. It just seemed easier to use on my thigh. Maybe, it was the extra give, or maybe it was just an easier angle, but it did seem easier.

Overall, when you look at the products made over the years, those with some give seem to outnumber those without. But, since both types were made and in some numbers, it is likely they both will work fine. But, they just may require slightly different techniques for use.

 

[Legion]

Interesting that you mention the paddle strops which have that hollow centre portion to create "give". My logic says that "give" is not only unnecessary but undesirable. I was actually discussing this very issue with another member the other day and it got me thinking. Here is some of what I wrote at the time (it is easier for me to just copy from that conversation than write it all out again. ) He asked me if I had thought about making wooden paddles with those slats on the outside and a void in between them.

"I did play with that idea for a little while. To be honest I found that, while it certainly looks fancy, the pressure needed on the blade to cause ANY deflection of the woods surface would be detrimental to the stropping, and the alignment of the blades edge. A much more sensible option (although not as pretty to look at) is to put a material which is flat but has some give (I've been thinking about neoprene. I've also been stropping on neoprene in substitution for a linen component which has been interesting and promising...) under the leather, or just use a loom strop. In the end I decide that a paddles strength is that it has no give, except that provided by the leather.

When you think about it logically, as long as the paddle is perfectly flat, what benefit does having flex in the strop give? Ideally our strop should follow as closely as possible the plain set by the hone which established the bevel. That was flat and had no flex... unless it was a pasted hanging strop...

These are the things I have been thinking over. I can't help thinking that a lot of what we do with straight razors today is not based on logic but on what is traditional. And a lot of what is traditional was done because it was the cheaper, easier option or because they didn't know better.

Think about someone shopping a hundred years ago. He walks into a shop and there are two strops. One is a handcrafted wooden paddle with leather on it and it costs $4. The other is just the leather and it costs $2. The plain leather might not be quite as good, but it still works and it costs half as much.

As an example, it is the same logic today which has most people buying a Chinese power saw for $150 even though they could buy one that works a bit better, made in, say, Germany, but costs $800. In a hundred years will historians believe that the Chinese made better saws because 90% of the ones in antique stores came from there?"

Just thoughts. As I said before, I have both kinds of strops and I am still deciding which I prefer to use, the mechanics of it all. I just have that kind of brain that always questions why things are done in certain ways rather than just going along with the flow. It made me a major PITA for my teachers at school.

 

[natchez]

Very fair response. Are hanging strops more common because they are better, cheaper, or even just what folks were used to?

Here are a few pics of my German-made travel strop. I think it is of rather recent vintage, 1950's?, and would have been cheaper to make without the shaping of the wooden middle. It was clearly designed to put give in the stropping surfaces, and has leather on one side and linen on the other. But, then again I have not seen many like this around.

I use a very light stroke with it. For me, it works very well and is very compact- 8L" x 1.5W x 1 5/16"H (without the box). Biber also made just flat paddle strops.

 

[wdwrx]

Some good points, but I believe that the hanging strop serves a function in that as the edge becomes worn through use and stropping, the flat planes of the bevel no longer exist as such, so the deflection inherent in a hanging trop serves to act on the damaged edge itself as opposed to the entire plane of the bevel the way a stone does.
I also am of the opinion that the abrasive forces of a strop are so mild that they would become less effective if applied to the bevel planes and so provide the most efficient effect when acting on the very tip of the bevel, again, only possible when there is some amount of deflection available from the strop.
Pasted paddle strops, OTOH, are more aggresivly abrasive, so they are more effective in acting on the flat bevel planes, IMHO.
So, as engaging as that scenario of the cheap chinese saw being available in 100 years, so therefor the best saws were Chinese, i think is fallacious, in part only because it's the better quality machine that is more likely to survive to make it into the future's antique shops. The cheap crap will long since have been recycled. I don't believe that an idea as persistent as the effectiveness of a hanging strop would be quite so long lived if it didn't have some merit.
just my 2¢...

 

[Legion]

Some good points, but I believe that the hanging strop serves a function in that as the edge becomes worn through use and stropping, the flat planes of the bevel no longer exist as such, so the deflection inherent in a hanging trop serves to act on the damaged edge itself as opposed to the entire plane of the bevel the way a stone does.
I also am of the opinion that the abrasive forces of a strop are so mild that they would become less effective if applied to the bevel planes and so provide the most efficient effect when acting on the very tip of the bevel, again, only possible when there is some amount of deflection available from the strop.
Pasted paddle strops, OTOH, are more aggresivly abrasive, so they are more effective in acting on the flat bevel planes, IMHO.
So, as engaging as that scenario of the cheap chinese saw being available in 100 years, so therefor the best saws were Chinese, i think is fallacious, in part only because it's the better quality machine that is more likely to survive to make it into the future's antique shops. The cheap crap will long since have been recycled. I don't believe that an idea as persistent as the effectiveness of a hanging strop would be quite so long lived if it didn't have some merit.
just my 2¢...

Fair enough, and a well thought out argument. I guess my concern is the part I highlighted. With a hanging strop, or any strop with "give" the edge will be prone to rounding. With a flat strop the bevel should remain more constant and the only effect should be for the leather to "grab" the burred parts of the edge that your beard damaged, and then drag it out straight again. Which is as it should be. A concave shape to the strop could bend that edge back and forth, rolling it over rather than just straightening it out.

My example of the power saws was possibly not the best one, as obviously the life span of something cheap with lots of moving parts would not be as good, and it would be thrown away. Strops, on the other hand, will last just as long, regardless of whether they are a paddle or a hanger. My point was meant to be that we assume a hanger is better because we see many more of them. It is possible, though, that we see many more of them now because many more were sold, and many more may have been sold because of the price rather than the performance.