Need some honing advice

[QuarkVI]

Well gents,

was hoping for some advice re my honing as it is not going as well as I would like.

Trying to get the hang of my coti (http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showth...love-show-off-your-rock?p=3119195#post3119195) and not getting the sharp edges I would like. I have managed to get a nice edge a couple of times but other times it is just not sharp enough - the crazy thing is if I hit the blade with 20 laps CrOx and then 20 laps FeOx it results in a gorgeous edge. That seems counter-intuitive to me as I though the CrOx would only mellow an edge or revive an older edge. I am quite sure that with the coti only it is not sharp enough, as opposed to uncomfortably sharp, as I get pulling and lack of closeness.

Procedure I have used is as follows:
Have started from scratch out of frustration and set the bevel on water paper(will cut arm hair) and then gone to the coti with slurry (starts to darken within 10 laps on my LPB) - do that for a while and then slowly starting adding water till just about water left and then "try" and finish on water and rinsing every 10-20 laps to ensure no slurry dulling (my coti doesn't darken on water easily) also keeping light pressure.

Got some lapping film on the way as the only thing I can think is going wrong is that I am not keeping the razor flat with even pressure on the narrow coti - lapping film will confirm this if I can get the edges on a broad piece of glass. Coti was lapped by Jarrod and I have double checked - but I do notice darker lines on the edges (rounded hence slightly lower) from honing so that could be indicative of rocking the blade?

Any guesses as to what noob mistakes I may be making ? Or what else I could do to try and diagnose the problem ?

cheers
Robin

 

[GreekGuy]

I'm not an expert, so you may need to wait for them to chime in, but I would suggest when you get to the water only stage on your coti try honing without pressure to see if it helps

Also, this is my personal opinion, but I see nothing wrong with using CrOx to dial in your edge. I use it for fine tuning all the time

 

[Legion]

If you are happy with the edges after CrOx keep doing that. As you practice with your coticule you will eventually not need it, but there is no rule that says you can't step the sharpness up one notch with pastes if you need to. I did that all the time when I was learning the coticule, and I still give the blade a few laps to finish from time to time.

Also, the LPB is one of the faster stones, so it makes it a little trickier to finish on. Do your last fifty laps under running water. I found that helped.

 

[Doc226]

Finish like you are doing, give it about 50 laps on plain water-then put a few drops of mineral oil on the coticule and give it another 50 laps with very light pressure and call me in the morning (after the shave)

Oil adds a little umph to the coticule edges and don't worry use dishwashing liquid the oil washes right off.

 

[Seraphim]

You have found the solution: lapping films!

While you will find the films to be remarkably effective(I recommend only going to 1um grit, not 0.3um as it gets harsh feeling), you will probably still want to work on your coti skills. Most guys swear by the edges they can achieve off of them. I don't know anything about it since all I ever use is film.

 

[johnmrson]

Here are some of the lessons I've learnt using a coticle. First, a straight needs a good stropping after touching it up on a coticle with both the linen and the leather to get a great finish. Second, if you are using a slurry, try and keep it thin. It should look like watered down low fat milk. Thick slurry is really good for heavy duty work but doesn't give a great finish.

Oh, and forget about that bloke with the oil. Recommending oil on a coticule is a banning offense.

 

[Mike H]

All great advice so far, the last strokes with light pressure is the key. "Less than the weight of the razor" is the mantra.

 

[O.G.]

My advice if you havent is to watch the undercut of the milk like slurry. As you dilute the slurry down the slurry/water combo should ride up all parts of the blade. If some sections it skips then that section isnt ready and you will need to keep diluting it down and focusing on that part. In addition, depending on the coti you may need 50-100 water only light x-strokes like laps and once again after a coti make sure you do 60-60, linen-leather, just about madndatory and it raises the HHT by at least a factor of one. Ive used paste before, the white TI type and it is excellent but once I learned my coti's, I kinda didnt need it - although its good for a quick touch-up if I dont have a coti around.

 

[Doc226]

Oh, and forget about that bloke with the oil. Recommending oil on a coticule is a banning offense.

True

 

[UPD]

Learning to hone on natural stones is a little harder in my opinion due to the extra variables involved. What I did when first learning to use coticules was to do a couple different dillutions. I'd start with a good bevel, generate a very thick slurry, almost like mud. Do several rounds of moderate pressure half-strokes and x-strokes until it was really undercutting the slurry and based on tactile feedback, which is hard to explain, it's something you need to develop individually. Run a few drops of water and continue half-strokes and x-strokes, continue as such until you get to a very thin slurry. I also reduce my pressure in increments as I dilute the slurry. I start off with thick slurry and moderate pressure running to thin slurry/water with very little pressure (weight of razor). When learning, it was often necessary for me to do this whole thing twice through, from thick slurry to water before I was happy with the edge. It helps you learn how much time you need to spend on slurry before you add water, how much pressure, how much slurry/water, etc. You'll get the hang of it with some more practice.

 

[QuarkVI]

Thank you gents - a couple of things have come out that I haven't done/paid attention to

- ensuring the slurry rides up all parts of the blade
- and haven't been using linen/leather after honing, was going to straight to a shave off the rock

Will try another razor this afternoon and report back....

 

[Doc226]

was going to straight to a shave off the rock

I have tried it off coticules and JNATs- better off JNATs, but much better off leather

 

[Kentos]

+1 to everyone. It doesn't matter what you hone on, the fundamental techniques are the same. That crazy guy who only uses film would likely get very good edges off anything, if he weren't too cheap to try something else

 

[Gamma]

I had one LPB that was difficult - the only way to finish on it was to do 50-75 laps under running water.
Every other slurry/rinsing/etc combo I tried left me with an edge that was less sharp than it was at the end of the dulicot.
And +1 to linen and leather getting the edge to its sweet-spot.

 

[PapaFish]

- the crazy thing is if I hit the blade with 20 laps CrOx and then 20 laps FeOx it results in a gorgeous edge. That seems counter-intuitive to me as I though the CrOx would only mellow an edge or revive an older edge.

This doesn't sound crazy to me. I can sharpen a razor up to "almost wanting to shave" with a number of different stones, then hit the CrOx and wind up with a perfectly acceptable shave. CrOx not only mellows a harsh edge, it also sharpens quite well (hence it's ability to revive an edge). As was said below, don't feel bad if you use CrOx while learning, and don't feel bad if you chose to keep using CrOx after you are getting really good edges off your stone. I still use the CrOx every now and again just because it feels so good .

 

[danjared]

Assuming the edge undercuts a very thin slurry, what you likely need is more practice with finishing then more time stropping. Don't be afraid of a bit of pressure when finishing. Save the light strokes for the last 10-15 passes on the stone. Stropping is best done with a bit of pressure with the strop slightly slack, in my experience. You don't need a ton of pressure or slack, but a bit helps.

 

[QuarkVI]

Well didn't get back to the honing as quickly as I had hoped - so just stuck with the one razor for the fortnight till I could feel the edge wasn't quite as keen as it was.

Took it back to the coti with a light slurry (not really necessary, I know, but wanted to practice) - made sure it undercut all along the edge before slowly moving to plain water and finishing up after 80 laps.
Then on to linen and leather.

Wow! what a difference - will do some more experimentation but it seems the linen/leather makes a big difference and I probably didn't do enough laps on the plain water.

Many thanks for the help.

 

[Doc226]

Well didn't get back to the honing as quickly as I had hoped - so just stuck with the one razor for the fortnight till I could feel the edge wasn't quite as keen as it was.

Took it back to the coti with a light slurry (not really necessary, I know, but wanted to practice) - made sure it undercut all along the edge before slowly moving to plain water and finishing up after 80 laps.
Then on to linen and leather.

Wow! what a difference - will do some more experimentation but it seems the linen/leather makes a big difference and I probably didn't do enough laps on the plain water.

Many thanks for the help.

I see your mistake, I said oil, must finish on oil.

Take that same blade and give it 50-60 laps on the same coti with a few drops of oil and call me in the morning.