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Natural finishers: The relative merits of Jnat's vs Thuri's vs Arks

After reading a lot of other threads and seeing some recent opinions on good natural finishers, I have come to the conclusion that out of the many different varieties of natural finishing stones there are three types that stand out from the rest:
Japanese natural, Thuringian and Arkansas stones.

It seems to me that the Japanese natural stones are the top performers - if you get a good one.
Thuringian stones can produce very good edges that may not be as good as those obtained from Japanese stones, but they are the easiest to use.
Finally very hard Arkansas stones can also produce very good edges, but they are less forgiving than the others.

In another thread I came to the following conclusion:

Basically I get the idea that buying any Thuringian stone has an element of risk similar to that of Japanese natural hones in that there are natural variations, and a stones performance can only be determined by testing each one individually.

Thus, as far as natural finishers are concerned, it’s probably safer to just buy a hard Arkansas stone - It may be more difficult to master, but you know what you are getting.

I know that there are many on this forum who have a lot of experience of these types of finishing stones and I would appreciate any comments on this topic.
 
Are you looking to purchase just one finisher and are asking for opinions on which and why?
You will get any variety of answers that will mean nothing to you since we - are not you. What we prefer you may not and vice versa.
If you are looking for the most consistent, easy to use finisher then either get a synthetic or an Escher.
 

Steve56

Ask me about shaving naked!
Japanese naturals and coticules: wide variation in quality with respect to razor finishing, true razor stones are uncommon, but the ones that are, are unsurpassed.

Arkansas and Thuringians: Much more consistent than JNats or cotis if you know what to look for. However, a Salm Rock. 4 x 2-1/2” coticule recently went for over $1k. I hope this is a collector hone! A Boxed Escher ‘Barber’s Delight’ in good condition will bring $1k+ so.

So, top razor cotis and Eschers are actually more expensive than JNats unless you get into premium woodworking stones.
 
I don’t know much about thuri’s or jnats from just owning a few. But for coticules and Arkansas stones they all vary to some degree, coticules more so imo.

The only synth finisher I have is 1um lapping film. It can turn out a super nice edge. Cheap to boot.
 
Are you looking to purchase just one finisher and are asking for opinions on which and why?
You will get any variety of answers that will mean nothing to you since we - are not you. What we prefer you may not and vice versa.
If you are looking for the most consistent, easy to use finisher then either get a synthetic or an Escher.
Thank you Sir, I cannot fault your logic at all.
I definitely am aiming to limit the number of stones I buy. Maybe that will lead to me missing that diamond in the rough and this may haunt me till the end of my days, but so be it.

Your contribution is more or less my current standpoint. The one problem is that Escher labels command a high premium due to the historic/collector value.

I even think that if I ever did own one, I wouldn't be able to bring myself to actually use it because of that historic value. They just don't make them anymore.

I am quite aware that personal preferences vary, but I still value the opinions of people who have a broader experience than I do, even though the final choice/s is/are mine to make.
 
Japanese naturals and coticules: wide variation in quality with respect to razor finishing, true razor stones are uncommon, but the ones that are, are unsurpassed.

Arkansas and Thuringians: Much more consistent than JNats or cotis if you know what to look for. However, a Salm Rock. 4 x 2-1/2” coticule recently went for over $1k. I hope this is a collector hone! A Boxed Escher ‘Barber’s Delight’ in good condition will bring $1k+ so.

So, top razor cotis and Eschers are actually more expensive than JNats unless you get into premium woodworking stones.
Thanks, this is the kind of confirmation bias that I am looking for :)
I think that for all three of my options for discussion, you really do need to know exactly what to look for in order to succeed.

Realistically, I will most likely end up owning at least one of each, but I hope to make informed choices.
 

Steve56

Ask me about shaving naked!
Thanks, this is the kind of confirmation bias that I am looking for :)
I think that for all three of my options for discussion, you really do need to know exactly what to look for in order to succeed.

Realistically, I will most likely end up owning at least one of each, but I hope to make informed choices.

If you want to explore naturals, the only real way that you can do that is to dive in.

Welcome my friend! Share your experiences.
 
Arks:
Crisp and skin friendly edges. Readily available in good sizes and quality. Very consistent and easy to use. Useful range is quite narrow. Needs a good edge to start with. Fineness and speed can be adjusted with surface prep. Extremely hard and difficult to lap. Last forever and are highly resistant to dishing. Effective on all types of razor steel from the softest to the hardest. My pick for the money.

Thüri
Keen and forgiving edge. Pleasure to hone on due to its velvety soft feel under the blade. Most often available in smaller sizes which can be challenging to hone on. Certain labels are highly sought after by collectors and prices of these have become inflated. Sharper than the average Coticule but not as sharp as Hard Arks.

Jnats
Not much experience with these. My first attempt was hit and miss. I would like to try again. I feel like, in the right hands, these stones are capable of super sharp and buttery smooth edges. Tricky to master.
 
If you want to approach a jnat in a very simple yet effective way you can use diamond plate slurry. And you can take an edge from a 1 k to finish. There are many roads to Rome. But this way is very easy to do. My first edge I nailed right out.the gate before I was "enlightened" on the joys (lol) of nagura. Which took me a month to get a shave ready edge that I got the first time I used a diamond plate slurry. Anyway that's my .02. You don't need to spend an arm and a leg on stones. Maybe I should admit to having almost three dozen jnats at one time. Lol.
 
Thank you Sir, I cannot fault your logic at all.
I definitely am aiming to limit the number of stones I buy. Maybe that will lead to me missing that diamond in the rough and this may haunt me till the end of my days, but so be it.

Your contribution is more or less my current standpoint. The one problem is that Escher labels command a high premium due to the historic/collector value.

I even think that if I ever did own one, I wouldn't be able to bring myself to actually use it because of that historic value. They just don't make them anymore.

I am quite aware that personal preferences vary, but I still value the opinions of people who have a broader experience than I do, even though the final choice/s is/are mine to make.

I guess I figured you already had your answer given the first post.
The Jnat vs Escher vs Arkansas are as Steve has given.
IMO constancy, performance and ease of use is hands down the Escher. If Arks were more forgiving and much faster it would be a tie.
Jnats are infinitely variable as are Cotis But given the right Jnat or an excellent one they are the cream of the crop.
 
Everybody wants the Ferrari, Lamborghini or McLaren?

First you need to learn to drive, in a Honda, you are going to crash, hopefully you just back into a pole.

Learn to hone on synthetic stones, a 1,4, 8k progression. Learn to fully set a bevel, refresh a razor and master stropping, because learning to strop will keep you coming back to the stones.

Learning to hone is problem solving, understanding what you see or experience, why that happens and how to fix it. Doing more of what is causing the problem, is not the answer.

Learn to set a bevel, develop a bullet proof test, Hair, Tomato TNT, or Visual with magnification, refine a bevel and edge, shave with it comfortably, repeatedly “make” good shaving edges on known grit synthetics, understand the process and pitfalls, then pick a natural and learn that stone.

What you learn on limited variable, known grit synthetics, will all translate to the natural. Each natural can be different, but the bevels still must meet with no chips, the razor must sit flat on the hone and the shave should be comfortable.

There are no magic stones or paste.
 
Well...

The obvious choice would be a jnat. All those pretty colours and patterns going on; nashiji, renge, karasu, &c. &c. But the Japanese know this, and charge accordingly - the loveliest will cost you many times the price of a plainer version of the same thing.

Thuris are a bit 'meh'. Light Grey, Dark Grey, or the highly desirable Snot-Coloured variety are your main options here. Occasionally you get multicoloured ones, but it's still just two types of snot.

Black Arks have certainly got a badass 2001 Monolith vibe going on, and Translucents are pretty cool because you can shine a light through them and then post pictures on the internet. Though after a while they lose their charm, unless you're lucky to get one with if pink/yellow/red in it too.

In conclusion... buy a Fiddich River Stone.
 
Arks:
Crisp and skin friendly edges. Readily available in good sizes and quality. Very consistent and easy to use. Useful range is quite narrow. Needs a good edge to start with. Fineness and speed can be adjusted with surface prep. Extremely hard and difficult to lap. Last forever and are highly resistant to dishing. Effective on all types of razor steel from the softest to the hardest. My pick for the money.

Thüri
Keen and forgiving edge. Pleasure to hone on due to its velvety soft feel under the blade. Most often available in smaller sizes which can be challenging to hone on. Certain labels are highly sought after by collectors and prices of these have become inflated. Sharper than the average Coticule but not as sharp as Hard Arks.

Jnats
Not much experience with these. My first attempt was hit and miss. I would like to try again. I feel like, in the right hands, these stones are capable of super sharp and buttery smooth edges. Tricky to master.
Thank you for your clear and concise analysis.
I would really like to know more about your first JNat experience, but that may be off topic for this thread.
 
llll
I definitely am aiming to limit the number of stones I buy.

Famous last words :).

Can't go wrong with a Naniwa 12k (get the 10 mm version) for learning to hone.

As @Steve56 said, if you want to experience different natural finishers, you need to dive in. Not my place to tell you how to spend your money, but smaller hard Arks and hard JNATs (like Nakayama Asagi and Ozuku) can be found for $100 +- $25.
 
I guess I figured you already had your answer given the first post.
The Jnat vs Escher vs Arkansas are as Steve has given.
IMO constancy, performance and ease of use is hands down the Escher. If Arks were more forgiving and much faster it would be a tie.
Jnats are infinitely variable as are Cotis But given the right Jnat or an excellent one they are the cream of the crop.
Thanks for that too.
You are right about it being a futile question though, and I almost regretted posting it, but I am still interested in the discussion :)
 
Everybody wants the Ferrari, Lamborghini or McLaren?

First you need to learn to drive, in a Honda, you are going to crash, hopefully you just back into a pole.

Learn to hone on synthetic stones, a 1,4, 8k progression. Learn to fully set a bevel, refresh a razor and master stropping, because learning to strop will keep you coming back to the stones.

Learning to hone is problem solving, understanding what you see or experience, why that happens and how to fix it. Doing more of what is causing the problem, is not the answer.

Learn to set a bevel, develop a bullet proof test, Hair, Tomato TNT, or Visual with magnification, refine a bevel and edge, shave with it comfortably, repeatedly “make” good shaving edges on known grit synthetics, understand the process and pitfalls, then pick a natural and learn that stone.

What you learn on limited variable, known grit synthetics, will all translate to the natural. Each natural can be different, but the bevels still must meet with no chips, the razor must sit flat on the hone and the shave should be comfortable.

There are no magic stones or paste.
Thanks @H Brad Boonshaft , this is sound advice.
My highest grit synthetic is 12K, and that has been deemed acceptable to shave off, but we can do better than that right ?
 
"My highest grit synthetic is 12K, and that has been deemed acceptable to shave off, but we can do better than that right ?”

Only if you are getting very good shaving edges from your 12k. A 12k edge with paste, Chromium Oxide should be a very keen and comfortable shaving edge.

Once you have mastered that edge you can bump it up with a natural for an additional 2 percent of keenness with comfort. Once you have mastered the 12k, it will be a good jumping off point for a natural.

Stropping also will make a large difference, and can take a year to master, getting to the point where you are consistently improving the edge. A single missed stroke on the strop can roll an edge.

As said, you can buy and inexpensive vintage 6- inch Ark or good Kopa Jnat from ChefKnivesToGo for $75 and learn that stone, but if you have not mastered the 12k, those stones likely will not make a difference.
 
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