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Natural finisher, synthetic progression opinions

Hello everyone i ll try to be as short as possible because i don't want to bore you too much.
I only have one stone that i hone my razors with. it is a coticule left to me from my grandfather which he used to sharpen small knives for tree grafting, i have been using it for some time now and it is a good stone that allows me to start from a completely dull razor, set a bevel and up to finishing it. shaves are comfortable and life is good. I HATE IT, and the reason i do is because the stone is about 1 inch wide and 4 inches long. i don't have a bout, so i went to the beach and picked a hard stone that i found there, used sandpaper on one side and have been using it since.
Now i want to do some shopping and i am making a plan but i want to ask a couple of questions because i am not entirely sure about some specific things.

i want to buy some synthetic stones and the plan at the moment is

naniwa professional 1k, naniwa hayabusa 4k, naniwa fuji 8k

my coticule is probably not the best finisher in the world but i want to try to use it with oil as a finisher at the end of this progression.
the 2 questions i want to ask are:

is naniwa pro 1k to naniwa hayabusa 4k too big of a step?
is the oil coticule a possible finisher after the 8k? (i know the only real way to know this is to test it, i would like to know your experiences)

if you have some suggestions on how to improve this setup please let me know, especially if you have suggestion on a finishing natural stone that is not jnat

thank you!
 
yes, i would like to try a different stone and keep only one coticule for now. i will definitely consider getting another one in the future.
size is not really the issue, it just becomes annoying when i have to hone a razor from start to finish with it. but if i have to use it just for finishing then i am good with it. i was just wondering if it's better to consider another kind of stone after the 8k and what suggestions the forum has.
also since my coticule is not the best finisher i wonder if oil is going to help it a bit. but only testing it will show me if it's gonna be worth using it after the 8k, i am asking for suggestions just in case.
 
My synth setup is Shapton Pro 1.5k, Hayabusa 4k, Fuji 8k. Definitely no problem going from the Shapton to the Hayabusa. I have read that the Shapton is in the the same ballpark as the Naniwa 1k in terms of actual coarseness but I haven't compared them directly myself.

If you do get the Fuji, try maxing out your finish on it and shave with it. You might be pleasantly surprised. It finishes better than it's grit rating. I usually finish on a trans ark but I suspect the Fuji will set you up well for any quality finisher.
 
My synth setup is Shapton Pro 1.5k, Hayabusa 4k, Fuji 8k. Definitely no problem going from the Shapton to the Hayabusa. I have read that the Shapton is in the the same ballpark as the Naniwa 1k in terms of actual coarseness but I haven't compared them directly myself.

If you do get the Fuji, try maxing out your finish on it and shave with it. You might be pleasantly surprised. It finishes better than it's grit rating.
that's exactly what i was looking for, thank you. And yes, i am aware that people have found the fuji a good finisher and that the grit rating doesn't exactly match the 8k idea, this is the reason i was asking about natural finishing stones and in particular my not so great finisher coticule, because i am not entirely sure what is going to be able to refine that 8k edge and wanted to have an opinion from people that might have the same stones.
 
I don’t have many synthetic stones. I do use a Chosera 1K to set the bevel. From there I use a Coe Bethesda Black to a Coe Dota Creek. You can go to any finisher you want from there.

The Coe stones are natural hones though.
 
I don’t have many synthetic stones. I do use a Chosera 1K to set the bevel. From there I use a Coe Bethesda Black to a Coe Dota Creek. You can go to any finisher you want from there.

The Coe stones are natural hones though.
here in italy i might find a surgical black or translucent arkansas from RHP. i was thinking about the black although i know they're a pain in the *** to lap.
also if i choose to buy one, do you think the preyda surgical black is a good stone or should i avoid it?
 
I really can’t say, never tried anything from them. You could try a Black Shadow slate or a La Lune from 1Stone. He’s based in France
 
I really can’t say, never tried anything from them. You could try a Black Shadow slate or a La Lune from 1Stone. He’s based in France
unfortunately friends didn't have the best results from those. maybe in the future i'll have some of those stones in my hands and will test them, at the moment i m not so sure about purchasing.
 
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You are on the right track, jumping from an 8k synthetic finisher to a natural will make your life so much easier and likely improve your shaving edges.

The 3 stones mentioned will easily do the job and the jumps are not too large. I prefer the Naniwia Junpaku 8k Snow White, White box. The finish is a bit better, but about $20 more. It does not really matter, if you are pre-finishing for a natural, and you will not be shaving off the 8k. Really the 1 & 4k do not matter all that much in terms of brand or finish quality. The 1k is a grinder, the 4 just a step to the 8k, with a bit of practice you can easily go from 1k to 8k, both stone are aggressive. Refresh is 8k to the natural.

Chances are your coticule is not better than an 8k edge, different but not as fine, you will have to test and see what works for you. Both the Fuji and the Junpaku will leave a near mirror finish and super straight edge.

For me the best natural edges are Jnat or hard Ark, Surgical Black or Translucent. They are different edges than a Coticule. I prefer vintage Arks, I have several. You can buy a good vintage stone for less than a new Ark and I believe a better stone.

Lapping is not as big an issue if you use loose 60 grit silicone carbide and a steel cookie sheet. A good new or vintage stone should not be that far out of flat, you can finish a razor very well on a 6-inch stone, and it will flatten quickly.
 
Welcome to B&B. I know you are tired of using a 1" x 5" surface to hone on, but since you would appear to have it down, perhaps you might try the Shapton G7 series. They measure 37mm x 160mm and are available from Dictum in Germany. I have a 6.7 > 3.0 > 2.0 > 0.85 micron sequence recommended (by Shapton) for straight razors, and it works quite well. Edge is perfectly shaveable, but I like to follow it with a natural stone to even out things. Your coticule used with oil should do the trick.
 
You are on the right track, jumping from an 8k synthetic finisher to a natural will make your life so much easier and likely improve your shaving edges.

The 3 stones mentioned will easily do the job and the jumps are not too large. I prefer the Naniwia Junpaku 8k Snow White, White box. The finish is a bit better, but about $20 more. It does not really matter, if you are pre-finishing for a natural, and you will not be shaving off the 8k. Really the 1 & 4k do not matter all that much in terms of brand or finish quality. The 1k is a grinder, the 4 just a step to the 8k, with a bit of practice you can easily go from 1k to 8k, both stone are aggressive. Refresh is 8k to the natural.

Chances are your coticule is not better than an 8k edge, different but not as fine, you will have to test and see what works for you. Both the Fuji and the Junpaku will leave a near mirror finish and super straight edge.

For me the best natural edges are Jnat or hard Ark, Surgical Black or Translucent. They are different edges than a Coticule. I prefer vintage Arks, I have several. You can buy a good vintage stone for less than a new Ark and I believe a better stone.

Lapping is not as big an issue if you use loose 60 grit silicone carbide and a steel cookie sheet. A good new or vintage stone should not be that far out of flat, you can finish a razor very well on a 6-inch stone, and it will flatten quickly.
that's good to know although i wouldn't know where to get a vintage stone for less than a new one here in italy. my options when it comes to arkansas are new stones from preyda or skerper, i have read that dan's stones are good but i can't find any here. i wouldn't know if a surgical black or a translucent is better. 2x6 inches should be the optimal size in my opinion.

Welcome to B&B. I know you are tired of using a 1" x 5" surface to hone on, but since you would appear to have it down, perhaps you might try the Shapton G7 series. They measure 37mm x 160mm and are available from Dictum in Germany. I have a 6.7 > 3.0 > 2.0 > 0.85 micron sequence recommended (by Shapton) for straight razors, and it works quite well. Edge is perfectly shaveable, but I like to follow it with a natural stone to even out things. Your coticule used with oil should do the trick.
thank you, unfortunately i have good experience with shapton glass for knife sharpening but not for razor honing, it really isn't my cup of tea :(
 
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You’re starting at the top of synths. They’re fast and don’t produce deep scratches.
i'm not questioning it, i just didn't have a good result. i compared my results with friends that had them and they also preferred the naniwa stones for razors. I know some that like doing a shapton pro progression and love it, since i already have the opportunity to try those, i wanted to buy different synths for myself and after some research i thought the pro 1k, hayabusa 4k and fuji 8k are a good idea, i will see once i get them.

my doubt isn't about the synthetic stones, i was just wondering if the 1k to 4k (with these specific stones) was too big of a leap and i'm happy to have found the answer thanks to @Darth Scandalous
i will then try it myself and judge if i need to fill a 3k into the mix

i was curious about finishing stones, i know that i will try my coticule with oil once i have everything set up because i really don't want to work with it more than just the finishing but i wanted to know if it's a stupid idea.
and i m now considering a hard black arkansas.
 
I think you're right to be looking for an Arkansas since I find it complements coticules very well. Which is to say I can't quite get my coti edges where I want then but touching them up on the ark lightly seems to sort of combine the characteristics. And it'd of course be good straight from the Fuji as well.

Your synth choices are what I'd probably have gotten if I hadn't bought most of what I have before getting into straights and reading a lot more about stones. @Gamma was quite compelling in his praise of those two.
 
yes my ideal goal would be turning this coticule i own into oil honing stone, getting a new bigger one that's good as pre finisher and finisher to use with water and a different stone like the black arkansas. so i will have 3 options, 3 finishers after the synthetic progression (oil coti, water coti or arkansas) and 2 ways to hone after setting a bevel, synthetic or coticule (1k > 4k >8k >finisher or 1k > water coti)
 
is naniwa pro 1k to naniwa hayabusa 4k too big of a step?
Not at all, the Falcon is a good follow to the 1kP/C. Might need to spend more time on it than expected before moving forward.

is the oil coticule a possible finisher after the 8k? (i know the only real way to know this is to test it, i would like to know your experiences)

Oil on a coti does one thing - it lowers friction to emulate a lighter touch during the finish. I don't get an improvement here but if someone is having difficulty executing a 'lighter touch' then a slicker/thicker honing medium might assist. Thing is, sometimes some Cotis finish better with a bit more pressure than 'none' so there's a lot to balance into the decision here. Coti bevels usually look awful so it's nearly impossible to judge visually, shave testing different approaches that run the full gamut of strokes, pressure, dilutions, etc is really the only way to dope out the stone.
 
Not at all, the Falcon is a good follow to the 1kP/C. Might need to spend more time on it than expected before moving forward.



Oil on a coti does one thing - it lowers friction to emulate a lighter touch during the finish. I don't get an improvement here but if someone is having difficulty executing a 'lighter touch' then a slicker/thicker honing medium might assist. Thing is, sometimes some Cotis finish better with a bit more pressure than 'none' so there's a lot to balance into the decision here. Coti bevels usually look awful so it's nearly impossible to judge visually, shave testing different approaches that run the full gamut of strokes, pressure, dilutions, etc is really the only way to dope out the stone.
thank you for your answer, to be very honest the reason i would like to use it with oil is because when i eventually buy a new coti i don't want to set this aside and i would like to give it a try with oil just for the sake of trying something new.
the bevel is not the most amazing probably but i managed to achieve very comfortable shaves with full coti honing, actually my best ones yet, but i am aware that there's a possible improvement.

i would like to ask you if you think a coti does a good job after the 8k fuji and if you would suggest getting the arkansas stone from preyda and if i can trust that their surgical black is worth the money (8x2 inches is about 80 euros). for lapping i will give a try to sic powder 280, 400, and then w/d sandpaper i think 1200 grit just to smoothen it a bit maybe.
 
With natural hones, each stone and progression has to be evaluated on its own in real time by the user with the stones, and razor/s in question. Not everything works for everyone the same way. Too many times one person tries a coti and says it's not up to par but then the next user loves it.

Long ago I had a Dressante that I used to finish after a Nani 12k. There are people on this board that will tell you it wont work, or that Cotis aren't finishers, or some other ludicrous nonsense guised as honing wisdom. After a significant amount of honing here in my home, I do know what is and is not possible for me. Have I used a Coti after Fuji? Yes, did it work, yes. Will someone else have the same experience? Dunno. Only way to know is to try. Best advice I can give is this ... don't try to figure it out without actually doing it. Talking to 100 people will yield 200 responses, many of which will be contradictory and 1/2 of which probably aren't on the actual subject, many times 'advice' is shared based on theory only. Hard pass on that.
Only way to really know something is to try it, see what you can do with it, if it works - keep doing it. If it doesn't work, try it a different way. Keep trying. Sometimes it takes more time to get there that originally imagined. Many times stones that were written off as duds turn out to be gems once some real effort has been added to the equation.
 
that's a good way to approach it and that's exactly the way i am doing this. i've had many people around me telling me that my stone wouldn't be able to do a full honing, i went to the flea market bought an old solingen razor and worked on it, to their surprise i managed to make it work and shave very well with it.

the reason i am asking is mostly because i would like to know what other people experiences are with approximately the same rig but i am most definitely going to try it myself.

Unfortunately i am aware that not all natural stones are as good as advertised so i would like to buy from a reliable source hence my question about preyda. for the coti i will see in the future where to buy it becaue it's not gonna be within the next couple of months.
 
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