Naniwa 3k/8k or Norton 4k/8k?

[bluemantra]

I'm researching my first hones to get. I thought I was 100% going to go with the Norton 4k/8k combo, but recently I saw the Naniwa 3k/8k combo stone for $10 more.

What would be a better beginner combo? Is one better than the other in the long run and $10 more seems to be a plus for the Naniwa if in fact it is a better stone.

Thoughts?

Thanks Gents!

 

[azmark]

For many years Norton was one of the only stones used with no issues and I it is the only synthetic stone I use. I've never used Naniwas but I've heard that they dish, swarf and need lapping more frequently than Nortons but unless you're honing for others I don't see much of an issue.

The only thought I would have on the combo is that there is a too much of a gap between the 3k to the 8k as opposed to the Norton 4k to the 8k.

 

[SliceOfLife]

The grits are different. The Naniwa 8k is rated on a different scale from the Norton 8k and is much finer. The Norton stone would be a lot easier to use because of this. The Naniwa stone would give you a much better edge after you put in the work. To put it into perspective: a 4k Naniwa would be about as fine as an 8k Norton. The 8k Naniwa is about as fine as a Norton 12k would be (if one existed). I wouldn't use either the 8k Naniwa or 8k Norton as a final stage in sharpening, so if I were buying a stone I'd get the Nortons. That leaves you needing an ~1k stone for beveling and a stone (or pasted strop or series of stones) for finishing. If you get the Naniwa 8/3k, you'll probably want to pick up a 5k sooner or later, and you'll still need a lower grit stone if you want to bevel and while you can get ok shaves off 8k JIS, you'll surely want a better finisher relatively soon as well.

 

[Wid]

So, would you say going from the Norton 8K to the Naniwa 12K is to big of a jump?

 

[ouch]

The grits are different. The Naniwa 8k is rated on a different scale from the Norton 8k and is much finer. The Norton stone would be a lot easier to use because of this. The Naniwa stone would give you a much better edge after you put in the work. To put it into perspective: a 4k Naniwa would be about as fine as an 8k Norton. The 8k Naniwa is about as fine as a Norton 12k would be (if one existed).

Great and often overlooked point. An 8K Norton is roughly the equal of a 5K Shapton.

 

[funkadelyk]

I currently use a Dorco 600/1K as a bevel setter and then use a pyrimid on the Naniwa 3K/8K combo followed by a Coticule as a finisher and I've been getting great edges followed by great shaves. BBS (for at least 12 hours) with no irritation in 2 passes WTG and ATG.

Before I purchased the Naniwa 3K/8K I also wondered if the jump from 3K to 8K was too big but Lynn from the other site said it was ok. It's really a matter of preference going 1K-3K-8K-finisher or 1K-5K-8K-finisher using both the 3K and 5K isn't necessary.

Hope this helps

 

[azmark]

The grits are different. The Naniwa 8k is rated on a different scale from the Norton 8k and is much finer. The Norton stone would be a lot easier to use because of this. The Naniwa stone would give you a much better edge after you put in the work. To put it into perspective: a 4k Naniwa would be about as fine as an 8k Norton. The 8k Naniwa is about as fine as a Norton 12k would be (if one existed). I wouldn't use either the 8k Naniwa or 8k Norton as a final stage in sharpening, so if I were buying a stone I'd get the Nortons. That leaves you needing an ~1k stone for beveling and a stone (or pasted strop or series of stones) for finishing. If you get the Naniwa 8/3k, you'll probably want to pick up a 5k sooner or later, and you'll still need a lower grit stone if you want to bevel and while you can get ok shaves off 8k JIS, you'll surely want a better finisher relatively soon as well.

Ian, would it be fair to say that is why some say the Naniwa's tend to dish, swarf and need lapping more often?

Great and often overlooked point. An 8K Norton is roughly the equal of a 5K Shapton.

Excellent info guys!

 

[SliceOfLife]

Do you mean the additional use? I wouldn't say so. Additional pressure may be to blame if people rely on it to avoid doing the high number of passes, though.

My 12k clogs up pretty bad but that's because it doesn't wear enough, so I really doubt dishing would be a problem. I've not used any of the coarser superstones for an extended period so I can't really comment on dishing for them, but I've been told the swarfing issue is mostly relegated to the 12k because it has a very different feel/makeup than the lower grit Superstones, so the dishing may be the same story in reverse. I didn't notice a problem like with my 12k in my limited use of a 2k/5k set, but I only kept it for a week or two (was a loaner). I don't lap my 12k ever (I did when I got it but didn't need to). I scrub it gently under running water with a nylon fingernail brush to remove the swarf, but I'm probably going to pick up a cleaning stone sooner or later.

So, would you say going from the Norton 8K to the Naniwa 12K is to big of a jump?

Yes, that's a huge jump. I go to coti on water finish or 10k JIS synth before going to my Naniwa 12k. Anything less and we're talking either several hundred passes or else I've got to use pressure, and I don't like using pressure on that stone. It's so fine and dense that I'm a bit overly concerned about scratching the honing surface.

Now I'm sure there are people out there, lots in fact, who go Norton 8k to Naniwa 12k. My response to that is diplomatically, that in my experience, that's not a good move. Less diplomatically, I highly doubt that they are actually taking the time to get their blade to its full potential on the 12k. The 12k is surely improving their edges, but I'd bet that if you got a good 10k JIS or even 8k JIS stone and touched up one of their shave-readys, it would further improve the edge because they aren't up to snuff for a 12k finish yet.

 

[TstebinsB]

What grit do you play to buy after the 8K? Are going for another stone or pastes?

 

[Danricgro]

So, would you say going from the Norton 8K to the Naniwa 12K is to big of a jump?

No it is not at all too big of a jump. I asked this question over at the "other" forum and some very respected members responded. If you have gotten all you can off the Norton 8k you should have no problem finishing on the 12k SS. Start at ten laps on the 12k strop and shave. If it needs more just repeat. If you have to do more than thirty laps total on the 12k you more than likely were not done at the 8k Norton level.

 

[SliceOfLife]

No it is not at all too big of a jump. I asked this question over at the "other" forum and some very respected members responded. If you have gotten all you can off the Norton 8k you should have no problem finishing on the 12k SS. Start at ten laps on the 12k strop and shave. If it needs more just repeat. If you have to do more than thirty laps total on the 12k you more than likely were not done at the 8k Norton level.

My experience, including some very detailed inspections at high magnification disagree with this massively. 10 strokes on a 12k SS won't even change the image under 400x magnification. The 8k pattern will still be there, unaffected. The edge will also show no noticeable leveling.


edit: Just tested again to be sure. Off a king 6k (Substantially finer than Norton 8k. I don't have a norton 8k around atm. I much prefer my DMT EE which people might blame for having "deep scratches"), 10 passes had zero impact on the scratch pattern. Around 20 passes the faintest scratches started to become visible at 400x (I was using cross patterns to increase visibility, this should also make the honing more effective/ work faster). It was near 100 passes before I saw any impact whatsoever on the 8k scratches, a very faint widening of the pattern, suggesting that the bevel was very slightly being wore away. I'd guess this was at most 1/20th of the necessary work on the edge, I can't emphasize enough how minute this change was, and it may have been wishful thinking because I was sick of going back and forth between my 12k and my scope at that point. My scope has a bracket that ensures I am viewing the same exact point on the edge every time. Sorry but I'll have to be put in the firmly disagreeing with the "experts" camp on this point.

 

[bluemantra]

My experience, including some very detailed inspections at high magnification disagree with this massively. 10 strokes on a 12k SS won't even change the image under 400x magnification. The 8k pattern will still be there, unaffected. The edge will also show no noticeable leveling.


edit: Just tested again to be sure. Off a king 6k (Substantially finer than Norton 8k. I don't have a norton 8k around atm. I much prefer my DMT EE which people might blame for having "deep scratches"), 10 passes had zero impact on the scratch pattern. Around 20 passes the faintest scratches started to become visible at 400x (I was using cross patterns to increase visibility, this should also make the honing more effective/ work faster). It was near 100 passes before I saw any impact whatsoever on the 8k scratches, a very faint widening of the pattern, suggesting that the bevel was very slightly being wore away. I'd guess this was at most 1/20th of the necessary work on the edge, I can't emphasize enough how minute this change was, and it may have been wishful thinking because I was sick of going back and forth between my 12k and my scope at that point. My scope has a bracket that ensures I am viewing the same exact point on the edge every time. Sorry but I'll have to be put in the firmly disagreeing with the "experts" camp on this point.

What are your thoughts on a Norton 4k/8k progression and then finishing on a naniwa 8k then to a pasted strop?

 

[Wid]

Why the 8K, go for the Naniwa 12K and use it after the Norton 8K. This is what I've been doing and I'm getting some nice edges.

 

[Pete_T]

I've got a nani 1k. It does swarf and wear more easily than other hones, but its so soft that lapping it takes literally 30 sec to a minute on a DMT plate, so it really doesn't matter. I don't lap frequently at all, either, so I imagine if you kept up with lapping would take about 10 seconds.

I'd say get the 3/8 Naniwa, also. As stated, its JIS, so its finer, it has a nicer feel when honing, and you dont have to soak it, which is something I hated doing.

 

[SliceOfLife]

What are your thoughts on a Norton 4k/8k progression and then finishing on a naniwa 8k then to a pasted strop?

Have never tried it. The 8k Norton to 8k Naniwa should work fine but I don't really know how much improvement you get as you progress in hones when you finish on paste. I know a good number of people are happy with 8k Norton to Pasted strop finishes, but whether the 8k Naniwa in between offers any significant improvement in the final edge from the paste is a question I can't answer.

 

[bluemantra]

Have never tried it. The 8k Norton to 8k Naniwa should work fine but I don't really know how much improvement you get as you progress in hones when you finish on paste. I know a good number of people are happy with 8k Norton to Pasted strop finishes, but whether the 8k Naniwa in between offers any significant improvement in the final edge from the paste is a question I can't answer.

Thanks for the honest answer Ian.

Hopefully you can answer this one too. If I go with the Norton 4k/8k combo to start with and my razors have already been professionally honed and have the bevel established. Is there still a need to get the Norton 1k or similar stone to set the bevel? Or can I go straight to the Norton 4k/8k stone to refresh the edge?

 

[SliceOfLife]

If a razor has been professionally honed and you don't damage it, you shouldn't ever need a 4k, much less a 1k. Razors can be touched up on finishing hones as their only maintenance aside from stropping. If you're doing damage to an edge during use that can't be removed through stropping and a few occasional passes on a very fine (finishing) hone, then something is wrong.

If you're looking for a hone to keep a shave ready straight up to par, I wouldn't even bother with the Nortons. They are in my opinion too coarse to be ideal for that role.

I'd recommend a coticule. You shouldn't even need a slurry stone. A coti on water is a plenty sufficient touch up hone. Bart actually rates the ones he tests in detail just for this ability, if you look around in his Coticule vault you'll see what I mean.

http://www.coticule.be/the-coticule-vault.html

Click on the pictures of the stones to see the details. I don't believe he gave impressions of "touch-up" performance on the earlier stones he tested, so if one doesn't have it, just try a few more. All those stones are sold or in his collection, but they should give you an idea of the range of performance you'll see from coticules as a touch up honing option.

Some he recommends using a light slurry to start the touch up, but in my opinion that's just to save time. I haven't found a coticule that wasn't fast enough on water to make a great touch up hone even without slurry (though I've not used nearly as many as Bart has).

Other options are Naniwa 10k, 12k, China nat, Thuringians, or any of dozens of other finishing stones. Now if you plan to use a pasted strop to touch up the razor instead of a touch up hone, I understand that eventually the razor will need to be completely rehoned due to the curving effects a pasted strop has on a razors bevel. Then you'd either have to send the razor out again, or you would likely want a 1k, 4k, and 8k Norton as well as whatever finishing stone/pastes you use.