Nagura progression on JNat.

[penan]

I usually don't finish on either nagura, but rather go to tomonagura > water on finisher, so I can't really distinguish.

those are intermediate stones in the progression the final edge does not depend on which one is used, since you are going one more step in the finishing process.

But doesn't the previous progression make any difference in the final edge? I can see that might not be the case with using only Mejiro or using both Mejiro and Koma since they are pretty equal in coarsness, but shouldn't there at least be a small difference?

This might sound like a stupid question, but if I hone a razor on let's say a coticule and then finish on JNat vs. using synthetics then JNat vs. Naguras on JNat then finish on only JNat, wouldn't the edges come out differently? Or is it only the final stone that makes the final edge?

 

[penan]

I think Nagura are part of the charm and the intrigue of using these Jnats. Whether or not Koma is important, necessary, or whatever - I think is up to the individual. As we can see here, there are varied opinions about it. I like having mine, I feel a refinement in the edge when I use it and I feel the absence of that refinement when I don't use it.
What is best for someone else, I don't know. Koma is expensive - 70 g stones can run over 50 USD before shipping. Is that investment worth the incremental refinement I believe it provides?
What a loaded question.
I have a hard time justifying the searching for and the purchasing of a lot of this stuff to be honest. There are days I ask myself if I've lost my mind. What I can say is that I am glad I was able to find a Koma, a few actually - and I will probably always use them when I hone or touch up an edge.
The video - I didn't watch the whole thing (I have a short attention span for watching vids) but yes, something like that. Except I don't do circles, or hold the stone in my hand - and I usually switch the stone around so I can use both sides (left/right, not top/bottom).
I use variations of x strokes, heel leading, toe leading, toe to heel, heel to toe...nothing exceptional really. I'm not very precise in that I don't count strokes or sets - I try to pay attention to the sets so I can mirror them though.

I recognize the feeling of loosing your mind. I get the same feeling from time to time, that things sometimes go over board. With that said I know I will get me a Koma sometime in the future, since there are a possibility I can get my edge up a notch using it. The search for the perfect edge can be expensive and I can't really justify the buy at the moment (I have spent way to much money on shaving gear lately).

 

[Woodash]

But doesn't the previous progression make any difference in the final edge? I can see that might not be the case with using only Mejiro or using both Mejiro and Koma since they are pretty equal in coarsness, but shouldn't there at least be a small difference?

This might sound like a stupid question, but if I hone a razor on let's say a coticule and then finish on JNat vs. using synthetics then JNat vs. Naguras on JNat then finish on only JNat, wouldn't the edges come out differently? Or is it only the final stone that makes the final edge?

I'm not sure. I can go from a coticule finish to a Jnat pre- then finisher and essentially wipe out all characteristics of the coti - at least in terms of face-feel. The charcteristics any 'precursor' stone should be overwritten to some extent by the final hone(s). That's been my experience, but I guess it depends on the specific hones involved and how much you work them...

 

[sicknote]

i use all my naguras and do a progression with it. Botan, mejiro/tenjiou and koma. After that i use my tomo and plain water. I get the best results doing this. My koma is a little finer than my mejiro i guess but there might be other mejiros which are alike my koma. What i could say is that my Koma is really fast. Much faster then mejiro or tenjiou. Im using my shapton 2k to create the bevel and than do my progression on one of my oozukus.

 

[mainaman]

But doesn't the previous progression make any difference in the final edge? I can see that might not be the case with using only Mejiro or using both Mejiro and Koma since they are pretty equal in coarsness, but shouldn't there at least be a small difference?

no it does not if done right.

This might sound like a stupid question, but if I hone a razor on let's say a coticule and then finish on JNat vs. using synthetics then JNat vs. Naguras on JNat then finish on only JNat, wouldn't the edges come out differently? Or is it only the final stone that makes the final edge?

no matter what stones are used in a progression one will only shave with the edge from the finishing stone. As long as you are using the same finishing stone you will always get the same result if the work before that is done correctly, not counting the variable that is each individual straight razor.

 

[global_dev]

no it does not if done right.

no matter what stones are used in a progression one will only shave with the edge from the finishing stone. As long as you are using the same finishing stone you will always get the same result if the work before that is done correctly, not counting the variable that is each individual straight razor.

totally agree. the purpose of the progression is to wipe out the traces of the previous "grit", doesn't matter if you use a slow or fast, as long as you "erase" the appearance of the previous you are were you are supposed to be...

the final finisher is truly what creates the face feel.

 

[Gamma]

My experience is that the entire progression has an effect on the final edge, I truly believe that the whole is a sum of its parts. One could argue from either POV, but after honing and rehoning the same blade, back to back with different stones/progressions and finishing on the same stone, I have experienced differences. Whether my results have been borne from a scientific reality, logical reasoning, or unseen variables - or all 3 - its hard to say.
What I know for sure is that I am totally convinced that a full Nagura progression prior to a Tomo/Awase finish will yield a finer, keener and more comfortable edge than one that is started on other stones and only finished on a Jnat.
The differences can - usually are - subtle, for the most part.
But - Im new to all of this so maybe Im totally off-base. Maybe Im right, whatever the case - what matters most is that the edge in my Dorko is just shockingly brilliant. So much so that I cant wait to shave tonight.

 

[global_dev]

the entire progression definitely has an effect on the final edge, you are progressively smoothing out the bevel and edge..

however i think how you get from bevel set to ~8K is probably not really affecting the edge if the ~8K is ~8K... your explanation is more like "made with love" to me.. and that works fine too.

perhaps the naturals leave a more variable scratch pattern then a synth and thats what you are getting at.

 

[mainaman]

My experience is that the entire progression has an effect on the final edge, I truly believe that the whole is a sum of its parts. One could argue from either POV, but after honing and rehoning the same blade, back to back with different stones/progressions and finishing on the same stone, I have experienced differences. Whether my results have been borne from a scientific reality, logical reasoning, or unseen variables - or all 3 - its hard to say.
What I know for sure is that I am totally convinced that a full Nagura progression prior to a Tomo/Awase finish will yield a finer, keener and more comfortable edge than one that is started on other stones and only finished on a Jnat.
The differences can - usually are - subtle, for the most part.
But - Im new to all of this so maybe Im totally off-base. Maybe Im right, whatever the case - what matters most is that the edge in my Dorko is just shockingly brilliant. So much so that I cant wait to shave tonight.

You know I used to think like that but after a lot of honing my view changed, the edge is same no matter what you use before the tomonagura stage as long as the stones are suitable for razor. Right now I need speed so I use synthetics to 12k then tomonagura to finish. When I am not in a hurry I enjoy naturals from Aoto all the way to tomoagura. I just got inspired for a natural honing session, I really like the zen of it.

 

[Gamma]

Since honing is a process - one that I feel is probably needs to be learned over multiple decades, I'll save my final judgement on this for when I hone my last razor. While I can see the logic in assuming that the last stone has the final say on the whole enchilada, I also think that since the very edge is being handled differently throughout the honing process like the face of the bevel is, I have to imagine that the cutting edge can wind up with a different personality too. Even though it's a very narrow space that were talking about, its a space that runs head first into a wall of solid abrasive particles that are polishing, removing material, and so on. My thinking is that since one progression can be so very different than another, their respective final edges can also be different.

 

[Woodash]

This sounds like that old discussion: how keen do you need the edge? How fine do you go with the 'ultimate' paste? I'm good with my regimen; I get very comfortable edges with more than adequate keeness off my Jnats. I enjoy honing, but there's a limit nowadays to the level of aesthetic that I require. But that's just me....

 

[Gamma]

Yes it does! But honestly, I'm actually quite fine with where I'm at stone wise and edge wise.
These days - my goals are more about balance than 'better/sharper/etc.
Still - 'Form ever follows function' rings true for me.
Function - so far as shaving goes - trancends the base-line definition of the word by a long-shot.
At least that's how it is for me now. Yet - as bright-eyed and immersed in wonderment as I am rignt how; I suppose I may, eventually, become less enchanted and my enthusiasm may become reduced to a somewhat lower-grade buzz.

 

[penan]

Thank you guys for all the input regarding how different ways of honing before you reach the finishing hone affects/not affects the final edge. I thought the entire progression had a big impact on the final edge, I guess I still have a lot to learn.

 

[Gamma]

Speaking for myself - I know I have a lot to learn too. ;0)

 

[Kentos]

Well finally got around to trying out the nagura on a razor I will be sending out to a fellow B&Ber to see how his edges compare to others'.

I dulled the razor on glass, then ran it through a diluticot to clear water. Then ran it on a slurry of Tenjyo, then Mejiro, then Tomo, then water. Then I couldn't resist and sent it though my CBN and Poly Diamond strops too . Needless to say the thing HHTs quite nicely, silent pops root in and out both. I got the feeling that raising a slurry with the Tomo was much easier today. I wonder if the surface of the Jnat was roughed up just enough by the other nagura to prevent sticktion of the Tomo stone? *shrug.

The funny thing is looking at the edge at 40x the bevel retains the sandblasted matte look, save for the very tip of edge where the 20 laps on .1 and .05 hanging leather polished it up a bit. Usually at this keeness the edge is much more mirror polished. Very high anticipation for tonights shave test

 

[Drybonz]

When I am not in a hurry I enjoy naturals from Aoto all the way to tomoagura. I just got inspired for a natural honing session, I really like the zen of it.

For me... I just like to use as many stones as I can. I enjoy each one, so I like having an excuse to get them all into my progression. Using one stone with nagura is probably great too... I just like using multiple stones.

 

[mainaman]

For me... I just like to use as many stones as I can. I enjoy each one, so I like having an excuse to get them all into my progression. Using one stone with nagura is probably great too... I just like using multiple stones.

no doubt let me count how many I have in aprogression if I want to go full out:
#1 Aoto
#2 Hakka
#3 Yaginoshima/ Nkayama nashiji / unknown red one from barbers lot those are interchangebale
#4 Shobu lvl 4.5 with Mejiro
#5 Ozuko with Tomonagura to water.

until I get tot the end of it it gets so zen I can almost fall asleep hehe.

 

[dreka]

Couple of off topic questions for Stephan,

When you go through a progression like that, are you using the lower "grit" (I don't like to use the word grits on naturals but I'm tired and I can't think of a better word right now) or are you using them with plain water and let the the stone do all of the work.

Second question is, how do you like the Yaginoshima? For some strange reason, I've been wanting a Yaginoshima but I wasn't sure if there was a better stone to use than that.

 

[mainaman]

Couple of off topic questions for Stephan,

When you go through a progression like that, are you using the lower "grit" (I don't like to use the word grits on naturals but I'm tired and I can't think of a better word right now) or are you using them with plain water and let the the stone do all of the work.

Second question is, how do you like the Yaginoshima? For some strange reason, I've been wanting a Yaginoshima but I wasn't sure if there was a better stone to use than that.

Dreka,
Aoto , and Hakka are self slurrying stones , the others are harder and need slurry stone to make the slurry.
The yaginoshima I have is right in the range I need it for the job, the edge off it roughly feels like 8k edge. My particular one is fast and aggressive, it is green if that helps. I have looked for similar one but full size and have not been able to find any.

 

[mrmotley]

I finally got around to trying a nagura progression this evening.

I started from scratch with a razor I recently acquired on the B/S/T. I initially set the bevel on a 1k GS, then went to a dilucot on a big chunk of La Grise with the intention of finishing with plain water on my Ozuku. I've had good results with this sequence before, but only with full hollows. I've definitely had trouble in the past achieving a good edge on my 3/4 hollow Le Grelots, so I was skeptical.

Anyway, I finished the dilucot and couldn't even achieve a HHT-1.

At this point I pulled out the nagura set (Botan, Tenjou, Mejiro, Tomonagura) that has been sitting in a drawer since I bought it several weeks ago. I again watched mainaman's videos on nagura honing and followed his sequence exactly. Finished with 20-30 laps on plain water, then went upstairs to get out my loupe and evaluate the edge.

Unbelievable! Perfect looking matte edge. HHT? 4-5 before leather, solid HHT-5 after. I've never gotten edges this good off a coticule (my lack of skill, obviously). Went straight to shaving, which was phenomenal. The application of alum post shave was the real test - no stinging.

Now I'm not even sure if I'll go back to my coticules anytime soon.