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My Search For Smooth
- Thread starter TinyT
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- #662
I feel that ATG shaving above the jaw shouldn't be a big stretch. The neck and underside of my chin is a different story. Last night I was thinking about that a bit. My neck is always less close than the rest of my face, partly due to how flat lying the whiskers are; just about parallel to the skin. I've had this problem for as long as I've been shaving. With a cartridge or disposable the angle of the razor is fixed. Not so with a DE. And then I wondered. Would a steep angle on my neck help? I'll be testing the theory next shave.
Flat whiskers can do it. For me, loose skin helps make jawline to collarbone less close.
Looking forward to your findings. Steep can be the invitation to a close, comfortable shave or to Scraped Face Island, so retrieve extra caution from the wind.
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- #664
Sadly, everything indicates that I'm on course for that particular destination. Time of arrival: tomorrow.
@AimlessWanderer is doing his damnedest to teach me how to levitate a cutting edge over the skin like Aladdin. Maybe that would keep you away from my island?
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- #666
If you shave shallow with cap pressure or steep with comb pressure and don’t scrape your skin*, you’re already hovering. Hovering and covering.
* I scrape my skin, but don’t mean to and don’t recommend it.
* I scrape my skin, but don’t mean to and don’t recommend it.
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- #668
Good point. Hovering I can do. Maybe it's floating that fills me with fear?
If you try; and you’ve enough experiments already; realize moving slow enough to feel the stroke warn you will keep hairs from being plucked when caught at a poor angle. Deficiencies in grip with prescriptions for correction occur free of charge, too.
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- #670
Perma-Sharp #51
3 passes, WTG, XTG, XTG
First pass, WTG, shallow angle, no tugging, no irritation, etc, etc. Onto my neck and I kept my chin level or tilted downwards, steep, WTG, no big increase in volume and it was very, very comfortable. Dangerously so because I kept going over the same areas again and again with zero irritation. Yet.
Second pass, XTG, shallow above the neck, steep below and very comfortable once again which led to yet more over shaving.
Pass three, XTG. A repeat of pass 2, a little less over shaving. Mild stinging as I rinsed, then towelled dry. The cold water splash to finish felt great, with no stinging. My neck looked a bit red but felt fine.
The steep angle on the neck was comfortable and succesful enough for me to carry it over into the next shave. It's difficult to tell if it's actually any closer. The left side is, the right side...probably but marginal. I also used a steep angle on the underside of my chin which is a little closer, perhaps.
I also changed the way I shaved my jawline today, again tilting my chin down and away rather than upwards, to fatten my face as much as as I could and used so much pressure that I could see the skin bulge as it gathered and formed a wave in front of the travelling razor. It looked excessive, yet it was completely comfortable. As with my neck the results were mixed.
The post shave is alright, bad compared to normal with a little bit of warmth and tenderness here and there. For a 'bad' shave, it ain't half bad.
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Light touch. Well done.
- Thread starter
- #673
Perma-Sharp #52
Fatip Gentile
Omega 10051
Proraso Green preshave
Proraso Green
3 passes
First pass, WTG and I went all steep. Lots of audio feedback and I could feel the blade but as I transitioned to my neck it all went away, leaving me with near silence, no blade feel and almost total smoothness.
Pass 2, XTG and I shaved shallow above the jaw. Quiet, smooth and effortless. I stuck with steep for my neck, the underside of my chin and jawline. The simple finish to the pass was enough to convince me of my theory. Shallow above the jaw, steep below.
Third pass and the devil got hold of me once more. ATG. After a bit of fiddling it turned out that neutral to shallow was just about comfortable enough everywhere above the jaw, even my upper lip which felt slightly unpleasant but not painful. However, at no point could I describe this pass as smooth. It got worse, the underside of my chin rewarding me with a series of weepers and after the first stroke to the left of my neck, it soon turned into death by a thousand plucks. I quit before the looming bloodbath and finished the centre of my neck in WTG bliss. I rinsed off.
After a bit of a clean up beneath my left nostril, the far corner of my left jaw, my left jawline near the chin and my adams apple, all WTG or XTG, I called it a day with a final cold water splash. Suprisingly there was no postshave irritation or redness, just a touch of warmth as I turned my laptop on but even that's gone now. Pretty much BBS above the jawline, it was nice to be able to complete a mostly ATG pass with no post shave problems but the entire shave wasn't as enjoyable as either a Bob Hope WTG, WTG or a WTG, XTG 2 or even 3 pass. And in the final analysis the process is far more important to me than the result.
Fatip Gentile
Omega 10051
Proraso Green preshave
Proraso Green
3 passes
First pass, WTG and I went all steep. Lots of audio feedback and I could feel the blade but as I transitioned to my neck it all went away, leaving me with near silence, no blade feel and almost total smoothness.
Pass 2, XTG and I shaved shallow above the jaw. Quiet, smooth and effortless. I stuck with steep for my neck, the underside of my chin and jawline. The simple finish to the pass was enough to convince me of my theory. Shallow above the jaw, steep below.
Third pass and the devil got hold of me once more. ATG. After a bit of fiddling it turned out that neutral to shallow was just about comfortable enough everywhere above the jaw, even my upper lip which felt slightly unpleasant but not painful. However, at no point could I describe this pass as smooth. It got worse, the underside of my chin rewarding me with a series of weepers and after the first stroke to the left of my neck, it soon turned into death by a thousand plucks. I quit before the looming bloodbath and finished the centre of my neck in WTG bliss. I rinsed off.
After a bit of a clean up beneath my left nostril, the far corner of my left jaw, my left jawline near the chin and my adams apple, all WTG or XTG, I called it a day with a final cold water splash. Suprisingly there was no postshave irritation or redness, just a touch of warmth as I turned my laptop on but even that's gone now. Pretty much BBS above the jawline, it was nice to be able to complete a mostly ATG pass with no post shave problems but the entire shave wasn't as enjoyable as either a Bob Hope WTG, WTG or a WTG, XTG 2 or even 3 pass. And in the final analysis the process is far more important to me than the result.
I always thought the Devil would tempt people to greater mischief and I’m sorry it was Old Nick that tempted you to Weeperville (see what I did there? 
).
Your strategy of mixing steep and shallow per region is pretty intriguing. I hope it continues treating you right.
The bloodthirst of your ATG passes makes me wonder why it happens most times. Between my bad shave last night and reading @sugardaddy ’s Marathon Secrets page, a curiosity of how you hold your razor for ATG work brewed.
As you know, I’m starting to learn how to not scrape my face and shave almost exclusively ATG. With a firm grip and light touch, getting the angle wrong leads to a tug that can stop the stroke and allow for a reset at a hopefully better angle. A missed angle is not a close shave and a correct angle is close and comfortable. @AimlessWanderer described how to do this best in my journal.
Now take the same light touch and remove firmness from the grip. WTG — and, presumably, XTG — the blade will cut at the correct angle and just pass over the hair and skin if it isn’t just so. ATG, that same loose grip will guide the blade into the skin (I’ve done worse, but don’t recommend this as I was done my shave before the discomfort occurred).
I‘m sure there are other reasons why ATG can suck, but was wondering if it was something like that.
).Your strategy of mixing steep and shallow per region is pretty intriguing. I hope it continues treating you right.
The bloodthirst of your ATG passes makes me wonder why it happens most times. Between my bad shave last night and reading @sugardaddy ’s Marathon Secrets page, a curiosity of how you hold your razor for ATG work brewed.
As you know, I’m starting to learn how to not scrape my face and shave almost exclusively ATG. With a firm grip and light touch, getting the angle wrong leads to a tug that can stop the stroke and allow for a reset at a hopefully better angle. A missed angle is not a close shave and a correct angle is close and comfortable. @AimlessWanderer described how to do this best in my journal.
Now take the same light touch and remove firmness from the grip. WTG — and, presumably, XTG — the blade will cut at the correct angle and just pass over the hair and skin if it isn’t just so. ATG, that same loose grip will guide the blade into the skin (I’ve done worse, but don’t recommend this as I was done my shave before the discomfort occurred).
I‘m sure there are other reasons why ATG can suck, but was wondering if it was something like that.
AimlessWanderer
Remember to forget me!
Yes!
I don't have any pre-made illustrations for this, but hopefully some crappy freehand sketches will be sufficient.
We know hair doesn't grow out perpendicularly, and that's why we have a "grain" direction to our beards. We also don't cut those hairs perpendicularly to the hair shaft either.
Left hand blade = with the grain
(exerts a tensile force on the hair whilst cutting - the root is behind the blade)
Right hand blade = against the grain
(exerts a compressive force on the hair whilst cutting - the root is forward of the blade)
The cutting resistance with the grain, makes the blade want to ride up and over the hair, away from the skin. The cutting resistance for directly against the grain, funnels the blade downwards towards the skin.
Also, hair and skin move.
Cutting with the grain, the blade doesn't leave the stubble at the same height it enters, partly as the hair rolls away as it is cut.
The effective cutting path, is more like the dotted line. This takes into account the very tip of the blade flexing (no matter how rigid the rest of the blade is), the hair being tilted forward, and pressed into the yielding skin. This leaves a tapered stump (or fractured if things didn't go well)
The partial hair thickness makes the hair even more flexible than normal, and stroked the same direction the razor went, it will "blend" into the surface of the skin, and not be felt. Stroke the other way, the hair will flex proud and be easily detected. CCS but not BBS
Cross grain passes will thin the stump more from the sides. Oversimplifying, it would look something like this from above, faceted on three sides, with the "tail" still pointing downstream.
What's left easily flexes and is barely discernible in three of the four directions of faceturbating. We're at DFS shave territory chaps!
Now the hair has been significantly thinned, the against the grain pass offers far less resistance, and the influence of the blade towards the skin is greatly reduced. You're only cutting through partial thickness at this point. That's why the ATG pass offers much less cutting resistance in compression after the preliminary passes. That, and the hair structure is stronger in compression, than in tension. Think about the difference lifting the top half of a wall, rather a load bearing down on it.
Which is all tickety boo in broad brushstroke theory, but we are not all the same.
Some people might find it a lot easier to go directly against the grain than others do, for two reasons. Firstly both skin and hair vary from one guy to the next. Coarse hair and delicate skin may well be a recipe for disaster for one chap, but his neighbour with tougher skin might find the blade funnelled onto - not into - the skin, where it rides easier through his less coarse hair.
Then there's the cross sectional area.
Accounting for the natural growth angle, and the roll of the hair, and flex of skin and blade, the blade travels a longer distance through the hair going with the grain after laying it flatter, than against the grain after standing it up.
People's lay angle varies, just as their skin and hair composition varies. The ratio of difference in effort needed between the long cut under tensile force, and short cut (maybe half the cross sectional area) under compressive force, may be greater for some folks than others. For me, the extra force needed to go directly against the grain, is MUCH more than the effort to go with the grain. For some folks that difference will be less, for others, it will be more.
With pre-tensioned skin, and a straight format razor, that I can set with a lower cutting angle than DE, I can get away with it. Not so much with a DE, that's asking for trouble.
Crap! Another "8 page reply". I'm turning Canadian!
I think as the lay angle becomes more flat, shaving ATG causes the compressive forces grow to the point they bleed when forced back into the root. When stretched taut and shaved WTG, then XTG, there is no weeping as there is less force exerted on the hair shaft being translated into the root.
AimlessWanderer
Remember to forget me!
My hair is certainly sensitive to tugging at the root, through poor angle, tired blade, etc. I personally haven't noticed any issues from the root being driven inwards, though I'm not hitting my stubble in a way as to cause that, as I'm typically doing some passes before shaving against the tide.
This shows an extreme version of the lift-cut that can happen going WTG.Yes!
I don't have any pre-made illustrations for this, but hopefully some crappy freehand sketches will be sufficient.
We know hair doesn't grow out perpendicularly, and that's why we have a "grain" direction to our beards. We also don't cut those hairs perpendicularly to the hair shaft either.
View attachment 1149859
Left hand blade = with the grain
(exerts a tensile force on the hair whilst cutting - the root is behind the blade)
Right hand blade = against the grain
(exerts a compressive force on the hair whilst cutting - the root is forward of the blade)
The cutting resistance with the grain, makes the blade want to ride up and over the hair, away from the skin. The cutting resistance for directly against the grain, funnels the blade downwards towards the skin.
Also, hair and skin move.
Cutting with the grain, the blade doesn't leave the stubble at the same height it enters, partly as the hair rolls away as it is cut.
View attachment 1149860
The effective cutting path, is more like the dotted line. This takes into account the very tip of the blade flexing (no matter how rigid the rest of the blade is), the hair being tilted forward, and pressed into the yielding skin. This leaves a tapered stump (or fractured if things didn't go well)
View attachment 1149861
The partial hair thickness makes the hair even more flexible than normal, and stroked the same direction the razor went, it will "blend" into the surface of the skin, and not be felt. Stroke the other way, the hair will flex proud and be easily detected. CCS but not BBS
Cross grain passes will thin the stump more from the sides. Oversimplifying, it would look something like this from above, faceted on three sides, with the "tail" still pointing downstream.
View attachment 1149869
What's left easily flexes and is barely discernible in three of the four directions of faceturbating. We're at DFS shave territory chaps!
Now the hair has been significantly thinned, the against the grain pass offers far less resistance, and the influence of the blade towards the skin is greatly reduced. You're only cutting through partial thickness at this point. That's why the ATG pass offers much less cutting resistance in compression after the preliminary passes. That, and the hair structure is stronger in compression, than in tension. Think about the difference lifting the top half of a wall, rather a load bearing down on it.
Which is all tickety boo in broad brushstroke theory, but we are not all the same.
Some people might find it a lot easier to go directly against the grain than others do, for two reasons. Firstly both skin and hair vary from one guy to the next. Coarse hair and delicate skin may well be a recipe for disaster for one chap, but his neighbour with tougher skin might find the blade funnelled onto - not into - the skin, where it rides easier through his less coarse hair.
Then there's the cross sectional area.
Accounting for the natural growth angle, and the roll of the hair, and flex of skin and blade, the blade travels a longer distance through the hair going with the grain after laying it flatter, than against the grain after standing it up.
View attachment 1149874
People's lay angle varies, just as their skin and hair composition varies. The ratio of difference in effort needed between the long cut under tensile force, and short cut (maybe half the cross sectional area) under compressive force, may be greater for some folks than others. For me, the extra force needed to go directly against the grain, is MUCH more than the effort to go with the grain. For some folks that difference will be less, for others, it will be more.
With pre-tensioned skin, and a straight format razor, that I can set with a lower cutting angle than DE, I can get away with it. Not so much with a DE, that's asking for trouble.
Crap! Another "8 page reply". I'm turning Canadian!
- Thread starter
- #679
Great explanation Al. This section describes my experience perfectly.
This is the area where ATG shaving is uncomfortable for me and where weepers are most likely to occur.
Because of the geometry of my face I can't really shave XTG here. The best I can manage is a sort of WTG/XTG hybrid but it's more WTG than XTG. That means the stubble here is longer than the rest when it comes to ATG shaving, compounded by the fact that my whiskers here are at their thickest and hardest, almost like metal.
The simplest solution is to not shave ATG and be happy without a BBS. This suits me fine. I shave only for myself, nobody or nothing else compels me to do so. After last nights shave my upper lip, right side was perfectly BBS and remained so when I woke up. And here's where I'm unusual. I don't really like the sensation of BBS, either in the few hours afterwards or as it starts to grow back.
I now know that, apart from the zone indicated above, I can shave ATG if I feel like it and that's good enough for me. But overall, my opinion on this subject remains unchanged. There's something about ATG shaving that just...goes against the grain.
This is the area where ATG shaving is uncomfortable for me and where weepers are most likely to occur.
Because of the geometry of my face I can't really shave XTG here. The best I can manage is a sort of WTG/XTG hybrid but it's more WTG than XTG. That means the stubble here is longer than the rest when it comes to ATG shaving, compounded by the fact that my whiskers here are at their thickest and hardest, almost like metal.
The simplest solution is to not shave ATG and be happy without a BBS. This suits me fine. I shave only for myself, nobody or nothing else compels me to do so. After last nights shave my upper lip, right side was perfectly BBS and remained so when I woke up. And here's where I'm unusual. I don't really like the sensation of BBS, either in the few hours afterwards or as it starts to grow back.
I now know that, apart from the zone indicated above, I can shave ATG if I feel like it and that's good enough for me. But overall, my opinion on this subject remains unchanged. There's something about ATG shaving that just...goes against the grain.
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- Thread starter
- #680
So far, so good. My next shave, which I've been looking forward to since 10.01pm Thursday, will be a 2 pass WTG, XTG or WTG, WTG/XTG hybrid (and maybe a clean up), non thinking shave. If the angle happens automatically then I'll know it's right.
Definitely something like that, as explained by Al. Other reasons? So many. (But it doesn't have to be this way.)
