My Method Edge Isn't Tree Topping!

[rbscebu]

I had some free time today so I thought that I would work on the edge of my "bluntest" SR. Out came one of my Titan ACRM-2 blades. I started by lightly bread-knifing the edge on an empty San Miguel beer bottle.

From the beer bottle, I set the bevel using the burr method on a 1k synthetic stone on bench. All was good and the edge shave my arm hair - just. From there I went to my 3k natural stone and honed hand-held until there were no more marks on the bevel from the 1k. Now arm shaving was easy.

Next was the 12u lapping film (I skipped the 30u as I had used the 3k stone) and progressed up to 1u, all hand held, before switching to my diamond pasted hand-held balsa strops. 100 laps on 0.50u medium pressure, 150 laps on 0.25u light pressure and finished off with 200 laps on 0.10u hung vertically with almost no pressure.

I finished off with 100 very light laps on my clean cow-hide leather strop.

All was looking good and I felt satisfied with my work. Now came the final tree-topping test. The edge would not tree-top cut my arm hair. I could almost swear that the hairs cut before the edge even touched them!

Of course the real test will be tomorrow morning when I shave with it.

My fifth and best Method edge to date. From bread-knifing to failed TTT was a little over an hour. A big thank you to Slash for the Method threads and his guidance over the past couple of months.

Slash, when you are next in Cebu, your drinks are on me.

 

[Jr19703]

I also was having this experience. I am a novice and my methods are shapton kuromaku stone 1k, 5k, 8k, 12k. Tree topping 5k or 8k and not so much with 12k. With a 40x loupe I had noticed a sliver of a burr. So small you could not see with the naked eye. The bevel polished enough to see your face in with the naked eye. I would then strop 150 to 200 times and all is well, tree toppling once again. If you don't have one, a powerful loupe would help.

 

[rbscebu]

This morning was my first shave with the newly sharpened Titan ACRM-2.

Washed face with soap and cold water, rinsed and left wet while I stropped, applied cream to my Gowing Bros. badger bush. Then face lathered and started.

First pass WTG and felt nothing. The edge removed the lather but I did no feel the edge cutting any whiskers at all. Re-lathered and did a second pass XTG. This time I could just feel the edge cutting the odd whisker in the neck area. Final re-lather for the third pass, this time ATG. This time I could just feel the edge cutting the whiskers in the neck and upper lip areas.

Rinsed with cold water and patted dry with a fresh face towel. The end result was a 100% BBS shave without even a single weeper. Finished by applying a good splash of Clarfiance. No stinging at all.

That had to be the smoothest, best and most comfortable shave I have ever given myself!

After drying the blade, I gave the edge 60 light passes on a 0.1u diamond pasted hanging balsa strop. Then applied a thin coating of oil to the steel, some beeswax with Shea Butter to the wooden scales and put my now favourite SR away to rest after doing a sterling job.

​

 

[Jr19703]

So the TTT is not the end all be all test? I'm new so ignore my previous post. Is the Titan one of those china razors?

 

[MO1]

So the TTT is not the end all be all test? I'm new so ignore my previous post. Is the Titan one of those china razors?

I think he meant that he got the razor so sharp that he could not tell that it was tree topping. A bit of humor, the hairs jump off the skin in pure horror from the edge. Slice cutting on contact a really nice edge.
Titan is one of those China razors made in stainless if I'm not mistaken, stainless version of the gold dollar.

 

[rbscebu]

So the TTT is not the end all be all test? I'm new so ignore my previous post. Is the Titan one of those china razors?

Titan is a Taiwanese made razor from imported Japanese blanks. They have three types of blades; ACRM-2 a high carbon steel with some chromium for about USD 25 , VG10-HZ one of the better stainless steels for blades for about USD 40, and ACRO their top stainless steel for about USD 100.

Titan SRs are highly regarded in Asia. I am very partial to them as they have timber (African mahogany or ebony) scales and the blade geometry does not normally need modifications.

 

[MO1]

Shaving with straight razors decades, I have not seen one 'tree-top' hair on my arm, ever. Some people have fine hair some coarse some holds its position well and some moves like a dandelion.

Only place I can get what is described here is if I step a leg so a knee is about near my sternum, then the hair at the knee cooperates as described here, though I would not say nearly as high up as is written here. Also, to get even that I have to strop first.

So, it seems this test will have to be calibrated somewhat to your own hair - there are probably people experiencing the opposite (thicker hair that holds its place well so hairs tree-top even when a shave isn't that great from the razor).

In my experience if a edge doesn't tree top, it's not sharp enough, you can have a "comfortable" edge which fails tree topping but lacks in sharpness, up to the user to decide what is what.
Tree topping is not so much to test if it's cutting, more on HOW it's cutting. If you have thick hair then you would probably get easier tree topping, but you need to read how it's cutting.
My arm hair is quite thin but I can still tree top with a mediocre edge, it's all in how it's cutting.
If it can't even tree top my thin arm hair then the edge has always been lacking in sharpness.
Can't say you are wrong, only what it sounds to me.

 

[Slash McCoy]

There is a good bit of variability in TTT results among different shavers. It does sometimes have to be calibrated a bit to the individual's results. You could also try HHT as an alternative. If you live in the US, UK, or EU, you should be able to purchase packs of human hair at a beauty shop. This hair is usually pretty consistent and I think it is mostly sourced in India, not sure. Women of African descent often add it to their natural hair by glueing to the scalp or weaving, for more length and thickness after straightening their natural hair. Sort of like a semi-permanent wig. And so the hair is consistent with that use in that market. This gives you a reasonable benchmark in HHT.

My forearms are more or less in a state of permanent crew cut and so I bought a pack of hair a while back, just never got around to trying HHT for myself. I never have, believe it or not. I have taken to using chest hair for treetopping, and being stiffer and coarser, I pass the razor about 1/2" above the skin. So now I am gradually getting a 1/2" crewcut on my chest. Belly hair is about the same texture but it lays flat so can't treetop there. I need to just bite the bullet and start using HHT.

Actual testing technique varies a lot, too. The article on the coticules.be site is a good reference. On the TTT, for instance, there is a big performance difference between holding the razor parallel to the skin and holding it with the edge angled downward about 15 degrees. Or holding the razor perpendicular to the direction of travel vs leading a bit with heel or toe. HHT has even more variations that should conform to a standard for more relevant results when comparing one man's edge to another's. Your own results are of course valid and relevant for your own reference, as long as your technique is consistent.

Another good sharpness reference is a DE blade. If you can match the cutting power of a standard DE blade then you have a high quality edge on your straight razor. If you can match a premium blade such as a Feather DE blade, then you have a one percenter, absolutely superior edge on your razor. If you can only match the performance of a very tame blade such as a Derby, well, that is still pretty good. Most guys do not bother or do not know how to make such an edge and for many, it isn't all that important anyway. That the razor shaves the face with reasonable closeness and comfort is good enough for the thundering herd, and nothing wrong with that at all.

 

[Seveneighth]

maybe just me but I have had edges that tree top well but shave badly

the only test that seems to be consistent for me short of shaving is how the blade reacts to the strop

I don't know why. It doesn't make sense. It just always works for me.

 

[Slash McCoy]

maybe just me but I have had edges that tree top well but shave badly

the only test that seems to be consistent for me short of shaving is how the blade reacts to the strop

I don't know why. It doesn't make sense. It just always works for me.

Doesn't have to make sense. When you are used to a particular metric then it is relevant, at least to you.

A fin edge often treetops nicely but sometimes folds up almost immediately when you try to shave. Also a very toothy edge can sometimes treetop. I have had 1k fresh bevels surprise me by treetopping. It's not something you can always rely on out of context. And I, too, have had treetopping edges deliver less than stellar shaves. BUT I have never had a good shave from an edge that would not treetop at all for me, and so I look for decent treetopping before calling an edge good to go. A normal well formed edge that shaves SHOULD also treetop, though. So one issue with treetopping is that the edge needs to be free of artifacts if it is to shave well even if it does treetop.

 

[Mouette]

I think he meant that he got the razor so sharp that he could not tell that it was tree topping. A bit of humor, the hairs jump off the skin in pure horror from the edge. Slice cutting on contact a really nice edge.
Titan is one of those China razors made in stainless if I'm not mistaken, stainless version of the gold dollar.

It sounds a bit like one of those stories about the art of samurai sword smithing. Apparently the blades from different smiths would have different personalities. Blades from a particular smith (can't remember the names offhand) would have a not so benign personality and if placed in a stream of running water, a leaf floating downstream would hit the blade and be cut in half. A blade from another smith was said to have a nicer personality and if those blades were placed in the stream, the leaf floating downstream would merely swirl around the blade instead of being cut in half.

Not sure of the relevance of this story but the bit about the hairs jumping off the skin in horror reminded me of it.

cheers
Andrew

 

[Tomo]

My first attempt at lapping films actually made the blade worse. I then tried again paying very close attention to my technique when lifting the blade off of the grinding material.

The first time I just swiped the blade and lifted away in the last stroke. I am afraid this may have rolled or dulled the the edge as the spine lost contact before the edge.

On the second attempt I made sure to roll onto the spine as normal and then lift the blade from the grinding material from the spine touching position. The results this time were fantastic.

I think that it may be easy to ruin an edge with a careless last stroke and lift. The other problems you could run into are surfaces that are not flat, too light pressure resulting in inconsistent contact, too hard of pressure resulting in bending the blade and changing the bevel angle.

Just my two cents.