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My Journey Into Black Arkansas
- Thread starter rbscebu
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rbscebu
Girls call me Makaluod
Is that good, bad or indifferent?
Preyda have two types of black stone. Hard black and Surgical Black. I believe the Surgical is similar to what Dans sell, but I’m not sure how different the hard black is to that. I’ve not owned either.
I do recall one seller (and I can’t remember if it was Dan, Preyda or someone else) selling a black stone from Arkansas that was actually something other than novaculite.
I found some of the old discussion on this. It was Preyda. Apparently their Surgical is novaculite, and the hard is a type of hard slate called Dunston stone. They can still sell it as a black Arkansas because... well, it's black and from Arkansas.
This might explain the high SG and the fact you were able to get anywhere lapping it with paper. I tried lapping a translucent with paper the other day, and the stone just laughed at it.
This might explain the high SG and the fact you were able to get anywhere lapping it with paper. I tried lapping a translucent with paper the other day, and the stone just laughed at it.
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rbscebu
Girls call me Makaluod
Oh well, whatever it is, it is going to be interesting to see how it performs as a SR finisher. For carbon steel baldes, it is only competing against pasted balsa and coticule.
Oh sure. I have a number of slate stones I absolutely love.
I know @Gamma has had dealings with that company, and has probably tried both stones himself. I’m sure when he logs on he might be able to explain how they differ.
I was thinking it could be a Dunston stone myself. While not a true Black Ark they can still give a good edge. I’m fairly sure Natural Whetstone sells on like that too.
Preyda's 'Surg Black' is typical of the most dense Arkansas stones. I have one he sent me to test, I kept it and got rid of all the others that were in the comparison testing.
Preyda does sell a black stone that is more of a slate, and not at all any type of Novaculite. I interviewed the owner, those words come direct from his mouth.
There was a (more than one actually) reseller (not Dan's) moving the non-novaculite black slate stone as a 'surgical black' Arkansas stone. Sharing names and details of that story would tread over the TOU rules I think so I'll leave it anon.
the Non Slate black 'Ark' was not a good finisher, wasn't a good slate either IMO. It was a source of a lot of angry customers for a long time, because they expected to get a 'Surgical Black Ark' that performed as imagined, and it fell miserably short of the mark because it is a totally different type of stone.
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That's up to the user/owner to decide.
A quality Ark is a quality Ark. If you like it, that's all that matters.
I have one from Preyda, it's a good stone.
Typo'd there... meant to write this...
the Non-Novaculite Slate black 'Ark' was not a good finisher......
I jumped from my Hard Ark straight over to the S. Black and I was really impressed with how well the Black picked up where the Hard left off. Really cleaned up the bevel and the shave was no joke!
I’m a sucker for translucents but a quality S. Black does an impressive job and is a little less demanding in terms of surface preparation IMHO.
I’m a sucker for translucents but a quality S. Black does an impressive job and is a little less demanding in terms of surface preparation IMHO.
I contacted RH Preyda recently and they confirmed that their Hard Black is a shale-based product and their Surgical Black is 100% Novaculite. I got their Surgical Black recently and it is similar to Dan's Black but has some white inclusions and slightly softer in those white parts. Other than those white inclusions, they seem very similar.
My RH Preyda Surgical Black also came in those silicon case.
My RH Preyda Surgical Black also came in those silicon case.
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rbscebu
Girls call me Makaluod
My 180 grit SiC powder arrived in yesterday afternoon's mail. This morning, straight after shaving, I started to finish lapping the Ark on both side. Starting with the SiC powder, I lapped and lapped and lapped .... until there was no more red marker pen to be seen. Then, reapplying some more red marker pen, I lapped and lapped until again the marker pen was no more to be seen. Finally, still using the SiC powder, I marked again and lapped. Marker pen was gone in just a few laps.
From the SiC powder, I then moved on to 320 grit W&D (1 sheet each side) until the sheets could do no more. From the 320 grit, I moved up to 600 grit W&D (1 sheet each side) and repeated the process. Finally I moved up to 1200 grit W&D for the white side only. That finished the conditioning (is that what it's called?) of my Ark.
600 grit Finished Side
1200 grit Finished SideVery happy with the results. Now to learn how to use it.
From the SiC powder, I then moved on to 320 grit W&D (1 sheet each side) until the sheets could do no more. From the 320 grit, I moved up to 600 grit W&D (1 sheet each side) and repeated the process. Finally I moved up to 1200 grit W&D for the white side only. That finished the conditioning (is that what it's called?) of my Ark.
600 grit Finished Side
1200 grit Finished Side
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rbscebu
Girls call me Makaluod
May first try with the black Ark.
After studying the use of a black Ark here on B&B, I have decided to hone with oil. This will be my first time honing a SR with oil. Not liking the smell of regular mineral oil, I have bought a small bottle of J&J baby oil - the pure one without additives.
I have two identical SRs available. They are Titan ACRM-2 T.H.60 SRs, each finished off 0.1μm diamond pasted balsa strops. These SRs have a steel hardness of about 60 RHC. They shave identically and I cannot tell them apart based on the shave results.
My thoughts are to refinish one of these SRs (the one with the black tail) on the white (conditioned 1200 grit) side and see how it shaves. Is that the way to go or should I include the black (conditioned 600 grit) side before the white side?
Some other questions:
After studying the use of a black Ark here on B&B, I have decided to hone with oil. This will be my first time honing a SR with oil. Not liking the smell of regular mineral oil, I have bought a small bottle of J&J baby oil - the pure one without additives.
I have two identical SRs available. They are Titan ACRM-2 T.H.60 SRs, each finished off 0.1μm diamond pasted balsa strops. These SRs have a steel hardness of about 60 RHC. They shave identically and I cannot tell them apart based on the shave results.
Some other questions:
- How do I tell when the bevels/edge have been properly finished on the Ark?
- What types of SRs are recommended for the 600 grit conditioned surface and what types for the 1200 grit conditioned surface?
- What do I do to the honing surface once I have finished the honing session; leave it as is, just wipe any excess oil off, wash with water and soap, etc.?
- How do I tell when the honing surface needs to be reconditioned?
I can share my experience - only recently (a few months) of using arks - below is what ive seen using a Dan's surgical black
- I didnt need to lap but kept one side from the store as is, the other - I finished with w+d 220 then 400
- Ive used both sides at different times - the unfinished 'shop' side works great for me too. The finished side, a little smoother. I dont feel any need to finish anymore for now.
- I would suggest using one side or other, not in progression - maybe use one razor on the 600 and one razor on the 1200 - you could see what you feel.
- After reading recommendations - I bring a finished edge to the ark. I started with synthetics to 12k then ark, and slowly started playing with introducing the naturals. I have done 8K - jnats - ark, 12k - escher - ark as examples, all with great success. Point being that these are edges I would/could have shaved with before using the ark. I hope that helps with question on bevels.
- I have used mostly japanese full/half hollow blades as that is what I enjoy at the moment. Similar to you - I keep a couple of 2-piece sets of matching razors that I use when I have time to play around and compare. Some of these include 2 Fridour henckels, 2 Thiers Issard, 2 older filarmonica 13's. They have all worked for me.
- I have tried plain mineral oil, wd40 and also glycerin. I must say i dont notice any difference but im also playing with other variables. After use - I rinse in water and wipe down with a sponge and a little dish soap at the sink. I dont see anything getting absorbed. Then just dry indoors on a shelf.
- I havent reconditioned it yet - I read that it will last a long time, this stone is very hard. if anything, I will re-finish only to try new surfaces
I haven’t used an Ark with oil. Only with soapy water or sometimes dry. I can’t say how oil changes the feedback but I would assume that it would not be so different that one of the best features of Arks would be muted….
That feature is that Arks feedback is so good, they basically talk to you. You can feel the edge develop as you use it. You can feel the grittiness from the previous stone getting smoothed out. If you have lubrication the feedback becomes silent. If you are using plain water or running water the razor will start sticking to the stone. In either situation, don’t press hard or force it if it sticking.
The feeling of an Ark doing its work is really something special.
That feature is that Arks feedback is so good, they basically talk to you. You can feel the edge develop as you use it. You can feel the grittiness from the previous stone getting smoothed out. If you have lubrication the feedback becomes silent. If you are using plain water or running water the razor will start sticking to the stone. In either situation, don’t press hard or force it if it sticking.
The feeling of an Ark doing its work is really something special.
My thoughts:
1. I would suggest doing a razor on the 600 side and one on the 1200 side--for now. Later you may find that you like starting on 600 and finishing on 1200. But the reason I suggest this for now is that it will help you tune in to the feedback. 600 will give you more feedback and it should be easier to gauge how it's changing. It's going to be slow. Don't be afraid to spend a lot of time on it to really listen/feel how the stone acts . I use a tiny bit of pressure for the first third of the session or so, and try to finish as light as possible. I also use my left hand to "steer" so as not to inadvertently lift the spine.
2. I think it will just come down to personal preference. I've done a lot of razors on both finishes (and in between) but currently I prefer 600. You may notice that some razors take a lot longer to come together on an ark than others. Learn to trust the feedback.
3. I wash mine off with dishsoap and water so I don't get oil on my other stones.
4. When it gets shiny. I like the surface to look matte (and you'll be able to feel the difference under the blade).
Some guys prefer their arks polished but this is what works for me. I also don't subscribe to the idea of working a knife or chisel on it after conditioning the surface-- but, I will run a knife or a razor over it a few times to make sure there's no stray particles, either from the stone or the w/d. Washing with soap after lapping helps. Stray particles will ruin your day.
An addendum to the last post-- and I'm hesitant to report this because it's based only on my limited experience, so don't take it as gospel: on my ark, a 1200 finish, or even moreso a highly polished surface finish, will get me to a smooth edge pretty quickly, say 50-100 laps broadly speaking, but it will tend toward harsh if I spend more time on it trying to bump up the keenness. Whereas the 600 finish seems to take longer but both the keenness and smoothness continue to improve over time.
Again, this is just my experience and I think you should experiment for yourself since you have both sides dressed differently-- you may find your preferences and experiences to be at odds with mine.
Again, this is just my experience and I think you should experiment for yourself since you have both sides dressed differently-- you may find your preferences and experiences to be at odds with mine.
I’m not trying to avoid answering your question directly nor am I trying to be evasive but I would simply advise you to avoid trying to sort these things out prior to extensive honing efforts. Try ALL of these things out many times. You will likely come back with a different set of questions than you have now.
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