My Jnat Journey

[Stapelfeld]

I think I would use those stones as finishers and not try to set bevels or do mid level work on them. It can be done if they are level 5 hard, but you would need to use a nagura progression to control grit size.

Just making dense mud is probably going to round the apex too much, I don't think they work like coticules. I would set a bevel properly, use something in the 6k range to initially polish, then finish on the Jnats.

I agree with with statement, when I started honing on jnat and coticules at the same time I often confused how slurry works on them.

Took me a while to realize they are different, the jnat slurry breaks down while the coticule garnets don't.

Basically I wanted to bevel set with a jnat by having really thick slurry then diluting... This gave me headaches.

The best thing I did was get a set of mikawa nagura and following that progression, by now jnats feel like following a synthetic progression: Botan, Tenjou, Mejiro, Koma, Tomo... if you want a brain dead progression that will give you great results I think thats the best thing to do.

 

[Tomo]

Are you consistently getting good edges from the Nakayama Koppa in the last photo?

I ask because I remember you previously getting good edges from this stone.

Yes the Nakayama Koppa is proving to be fairly consistent. All of my good JNat edges in this trial have had something to do with the Nakayama. The steel type doesn’t seem to matter much. The wrong Nagura or Atoma slurry does seem to mess things up though. Those were the exact things I tried when I first bought it and wrote it off as a knife stone. I’m happy to have proven myself wrong about it.

Now I just need to figure out the Shobudani. Or maybe I have figured it out... Maybe it’s just a prefinisher that needs to concentrate on prefinishing. It has a very different feel to the Nakayama. The Shobu has a slight grinding sensation to the honing. The Nakayama is silky by comparison.

 

[Tomo]

I agree with with statement, when I started honing on jnat and coticules at the same time I often confused how slurry works on them.

Took me a while to realize they are different, the jnat slurry breaks down while the coticule garnets don't.

Basically I wanted to bevel set with a jnat by having really thick slurry then diluting... This gave me headaches.

The best thing I did was get a set of mikawa nagura and following that progression, by now jnats feel like following a synthetic progression: Botan, Tenjou, Mejiro, Koma, Tomo... if you want a brain dead progression that will give you great results I think thats the best thing to do.

A set of Mikawa Nagura would be a great addition to the arsenal. I’m not sure where you would get a set these days.

I have three stones that look like Mikawa from someone that I bought some razors from. He did not know much about them other than that they were JNat Mikawa. They have numbers written on them from 2-4 but no other markings. They may be good stones if used in the right order. They cut fast and leave a sandblasted bevel finish. I may spend some time trying to rank them. To date I have struggled to bridge the progression between these Mikawa and a Tomo. I maybe missing the Mejiro and Koma part of the progression.

 

[Tomo]

I struck gold again on the shave test this morning. The Iwasak glided quietly through the stubble as if there was nothing there. The best edge yet. The edge felt soft and safe. Is it possible for a straight razor to lack blade feel?

 

[Stapelfeld]

I suspect you don't have a fully set bevel.

Classic

 

[Herrenberg]

I struck gold again on the shave test this morning. The Iwasak glided quietly through the stubble as if there was nothing there. The best edge yet. The edge felt soft and safe. Is it possible for a straight razor to lack blade feel?

Yes, and that's the best possible edge in my book.

 

[alx gilmore]

I’m thinking of cutting some Nagura. Does anyone have a method for this? I don’t have a tile saw. Would a hack saw work or do you need a special blade for it?

Yes, the blade and the stone must be dry free of water and any other moisture, you will be "chip" cutting the stone. I use a steel hacksaw with a medium grit blade. Please keep the dust tampered down, wear a toxic grade mask, all dust in your lungs can cause damage. Go slow and work outdoors.

Alx

 

[Tomo]

Yes, and that's the best possible edge in my book.

This is a good one. Right up there with the best I’ve ever done. I can feel myself tuning into something. I’m going to ride this one out for the rest of the week and see how it holds up under use. Post shave laps on Kanayama Cordovan.

 

[Tomo]

Yes, the blade and the stone must be dry free of water and any other moisture, you will be "chip" cutting the stone. I use a steel hacksaw with a medium grit blade. Please keep the dust tampered down, wear a toxic grade mask, all dust in your lungs can cause damage. Go slow and work outdoors.

Alx

Thanks. That is some good safety advise. I work in construction and the industry is becoming increasingly aware of the risks of long term silica dust exposure. In Australia they have recently banned engineered stone bench materials like Caesar Stone. Concrete cutting, drilling and grinding are now subject to stringent safe method statements and avoided where possible.

What is not often discussed is that most natural stone is very high in Silica. Crushed rock haul roads are still the norm and these can be very dusty on hot days. It’s a good reminder to take care around stone dust in the workshop. My natural instinct would have been to wet cut but I won’t do that now.

 

[alx gilmore]

Changing razors and more testing. I broke out the big guns with an Iwasaki 30M. I like the idea of Atoma slurry so I wanted to test it some more. I’m getting further into the book and read about the Axe Method. I ran the following combinations. All stages were followed by 50 laps on TM Horsehide.


View attachment 1904041
Atoma slurry on the Asagi Shobudani worked with hard Nagura. Meh…. Didn’t kill the edge but somewhat lack lustre.

View attachment 1904042
Atoma slurry of soft Kitta Nagura on the Asagi Shobudani worked with the Nagura. Meh… same…

View attachment 1904043
Green Nagura on Nakayama Koppa. No Atoma. Much better.


My thinking is that 1200 Atoma slurry is too rough. I thought I may be able to partially break down the slurry and smooth the Awasedo surface by working it lightly with a Nagura but that does not seem to work. Straight Nagura slurry that is slowly generated on the stone seems to work better.

The other reoccurring theme is that I am not finding much luck with the Shobudani Asagi. I still have not been able to learn how to use it. It’s super hard and consistent. It should be a good one.

A couple of suggestions. Do not expect that the same stone will work as well with each and every razor/blade. It is not about name of mine or color of stone. Compatibility has to be discovered. Look for compatible pairings of stone to steel and keep a log on the results. And look forward to wearing down one of your Atoma plates, a worn plate can provide a sweet tomonagura slurry.,, Alx

Green Nagura

 

[rhgg2]

Thanks. That is some good safety advise. I work in construction and the industry is becoming increasingly aware of the risks of long term silica dust exposure. In Australia they have recently banned engineered stone bench materials like Caesar Stone. Concrete cutting, drilling and grinding are now subject to stringent safe method statements and avoided where possible.

What is not often discussed is that most natural stone is very high in Silica. Crushed rock haul roads are still the norm and these can be very dusty on hot days. It’s a good reminder to take care around stone dust in the workshop. My natural instinct would have been to wet cut but I won’t do that now.

With a normal hacksaw blade you will need to go slow as it will get really hot. Less so with a carbide blade.

To handle the dust I do it outside on an unfolded sheet of newspaper with a bucket of water at hand. Every so often I take everything off the newspaper sheet, refold it in half, hold it just above the bucket of water and tap so the whetstone dust runs down the centre fold and off into the water. Pretty much no airborne dust, though I still use one of the stash of P2 masks I guess most Australian households still have lying around.

 

[Legion]

With a normal hacksaw blade you will need to go slow as it will get really hot. Less so with a carbide blade.

To handle the dust I do it outside on an unfolded sheet of newspaper with a bucket of water at hand. Every so often I take everything off the newspaper sheet, refold it in half, hold it just above the bucket of water and tap so the whetstone dust runs down the centre fold and off into the water. Pretty much no airborne dust, though I still use one of the stash of P2 masks I guess most Australian households still have lying around.

I got a box of N95 masks for free the other day, because they had past their "expiry" date. What is the deal with that? Still fresh enough for my workshop.

 

[Tomo]

I was off sick with a cold today so I had some time to kill. I decided to try and put these Mikawa into order. From the scratch pattern there wasn’t much between them but they do appear to each be a slightly different material. I tried to take photos but it did not work very well.

The #2 is the purest white visually and the finish was fine and consistent. I decided it could be the finest. I decided to try them in 4, 3, 2 order. The Tsunami was easily the coursest. I did 40 laps on each slurry. Adding a spray of water ever 10 strokes.

After #4 I could shave a few hairs at skin level. After#2 and stropping there was an inconsistent HHT. A got a few hairs but not every one. At the end of the progression Zi had a pretty good HHT but annoyingly missed a big part of the toe. That’s ok this was mainly about ordering the stones and find a progression from mid-range to finish. It looks like I got a step closer and the #2 Mikawa is capable of the jump to Tomo.

So what changed with the Shobu? A few things I guess. No Atoma slurry. Lighter slurry dilutions at the finishing staging. Thoroughly cleaning the stone down between slurries stages. Linen stropping. Oh and my new honing gadget; a repurposed Windex spray bottle. I really like the spray bottle.

It looks like the Shobu may still have potential.

 

[Frank Shaves]

Is it possible for a straight razor to lack blade feel?

Yes, once you experience what feels like the hairs just melting you understand why you spent all this time doing this stuff - but you already knew this .

 

[Tomo]

I finally found success with the Shobudani.

After the previous, lengthy, stone grading progression from the other day I tried an abbreviated version.

Tsushima > #2 Mikawa > Soft Kita JNS Tomo

I started with a thick slurry at each stage. I added a spray of water every 10 laps until I was down to a trace slurry. Attention was paid to hit the whole edge with each stroke. The stone and blade were thoroughly cleaned between stages. The blade was lightly jointed at the end of each stage. Following honing I did 40 laps on linen and 40 on horse hide. A very good HHT. The toe had almost entirely been recovered.

I then lapped the stone, cleaned it and went back for 40 laps on clear water. The stone did not feel sticky today. It felt kind of glassy. I’m not sure if this is because the stone had been freshly lapped. Maybe the blade had more of a smile to it. At anny rate the action on plain water felt smooth. After 40 laps on linen and 40 on horse hide the HHT was pretty much the same as before. I could not tell a difference. Still a solid HHT. The edge had not been detectably diminished or improved by the clean water laps.

The shave test was good. Not quite the magic edge level of the Iwasaki but still a very good edge.

 

[Tomo]

I found a very useful link on the Mikawa Asano Nagura.

Mikawa Nagura with Asano Evaluation - Natural Whetstones

Information about Mikawa Asano Nagura Japanese Natural Stones Origins, Layers, Progression, Koma vs Mejiro, Purchasing Locations and Stamps.

naturalwhetstones.com

 

[Tomo]

I also found a company with a few examples for sale. Does anyone have any experience with this vendor? They seem to have a good selection of stones with details information about each stone.

NATURAL WHETSTONE

NATURAL WHETSTONE

ikkyu-japanavenue.online

 

[rhgg2]

Ikkyu are well thought of, no personal experience. There is also Watanabe, prices are comparable:
Nagura stones | watanabe blade - https://www.kitchen-knife.jp/special/wetstone10.htm

There is an opinion that new-stock Mikawa (sort of the bin-ends of the mine) is a bit meh. Not sure what ikkyu have, but Watanabe definitely seems to have a bunch which are NOS. His naming seems a bit unclear, I think he uses "Koma" as a generic term for "fine shiro nagura". ikkyu have all asano stamped so you can see what strata it is.

Finally, if you are going to punt at anything at auction via buyee, shiro nagura is a pretty low stakes enterprise. Price should be about 10 JPY per gram for botan, mejiro and tenjou in normal nagura sizes, and somewhat more than that for koma - it's quite variable but 20-50 JPY per gram is typical.

 

[JPO]

I also found a company with a few examples for sale. Does anyone have any experience with this vendor? They seem to have a good selection of stones with details information about each stone.

NATURAL WHETSTONE

NATURAL WHETSTONE

ikkyu-japanavenue.online

I baugh one stone a few weeks ago, and I have one on the way now from this vendor.
The stone was just as advertised.
The shipping was also really fast. DHL express. Delivered from Japan to Norway in three days.
To me it seems like the lv 5+++++++++ is a western thing
So, the hardness rating might be a little different then e.g. JNS.

 

[psfred]

Japanavenue is great, everythink I've gotten from them is exactly as described. You will do fine dealing with them.