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My First Natural Finish

rbscebu

Girls call me Makaluod
I have been thinking (a dangerous thing for me to do) and decided that there might be something inherently wrong with the edge on the edge of the Cnat Titan SR. Just to be sure, I took this SR back to a burr method bevel set on a 3k synthetic. I then refined it to the best I could on an 8k synthetic.

Yesterday I received a new Gold Dollar W59. After bread-knifing the excessive (for me) smile out of the blade on 400 grit synthetic, I set its bevel on 1k and progressed to 3k, finishing on the 8k synthetic.

The Titan had a measured bevel angle of about 18.3° while the GD came in at 16.9°. The Titan, being a much harder steel than the GD, took a lot more (about three times more) laps. The Titan comes in at about 70 RHC while the GD is just below 60 RHC.

IMG_20220607_075827.jpg
This morning I shaved with both (just off the 8k), swapping sides during my three-pass shave. Both shaved but neither were comfortable or close. The GD required just a little less pressure to cut through my whiskers. I obtained a CCS- result, better than I had previously obtained with the Titan off the Cnat.

I will now put both SRs through the Cnat and see with tomorrow's shave if the results are better.

I would really like this Cnat to work for me.
 
I would really like this Cnat to work for me.
I like this quest. I admit it doesn't seem likely to succeed, from where I sit, but it seems as though you will learn a ton along the way.

In your position, faced with a questionable hone, I would engage it only with the least pressure I could possibly muster. If you can throw some nagura slurry on there, and sort of hydroplane over the stone, that might work well.
 
I also applaud you for the adventure. As has been said, I'm sure China with its size and abundance of resources has some geological formations that can make phenomenal finishing hones. Some of the best ever I'm sure. As has also been said, the Japanese are nearly unrivaled in their blade culture and this likely explains why Jnats are so good. The Japanese valued the best steels and the best hones, so they sought them out and discovered the very best the island had to offer.

At any right, it's always worth a try. I'm not sure if you could get it shipped to you, but Dan's has some serviceable black and translucent arkansas stones for a tad more than the cnat. Granted, shipping maybe double that price if you're still in the pacific, if they ship to you at all. I finish on a black ark and I can attest it will finish a razor quite well.
 

rbscebu

Girls call me Makaluod
.... If you can throw some nagura slurry on there, and sort of hydroplane over the stone, that might work well.
One thing at a time for me. I'm a slow learner. First I just want to do the best that I can with just the Cnat.

I don't have a nagura. I do have an unknown slurry stone that I have used on some of my synthetics. It appears to be courser than my 10k synthetic.
 
I like this quest. I admit it doesn't seem likely to succeed, from where I sit, but it seems as though you will learn a ton along the way.

In your position, faced with a questionable hone, I would engage it only with the least pressure I could possibly muster. If you can throw some nagura slurry on there, and sort of hydroplane over the stone, that might work well.

Success is a relative term. Shaving off of an 8k is a very good start.
 
Well, this conversation made me decide to dig out my films and put a new edge on the old test razor. It's been many months since I have shaved off a 1 micron film without following it with a pasted balsa progression. Maybe my stropping and shaving technique have improved to where I'll like it. I'll see tomorrow. By and large, though, I haven't particularly cared for synth edges, either my own or others', with the exception of my Fuji 8k which almost doesn't feel like a synth edge at all.

@rbscebu , what brand of synths are you using prior to your films these days?
 

rbscebu

Girls call me Makaluod
....
@rbscebu , what brand of synths are you using prior to your films these days?
No-brand Chinese. That shave off the 8k was the first time that I have shaved off a synthetic whetstone.

I started my SR shaving journey shaving off 1μm lapping film. I then added diamond pasted balsa. As my lapping films were starting to wear down, I bought some Chinese synthetics; 400, 1k, 3k, 8k and 10k. These were used for bevel-set and early refinement, still finishing on film and balsa.

My main reason for trying the Cnat is to see if I can eliminate the need for films and go straight from the Cnat to balsa. To do this, I first need to see if I can get a good shaving edge off the Cnat.
 
My main reason for trying the Cnat is to see if I can eliminate the need for films and go straight from the Cnat to balsa. To do this, I first need to see if I can get a good shaving edge off the Cnat.
I completely understand what you're trying to accomplish here. I do have a couple questions and a suggestion. Am I remembering right that you are following the 8k synth with 3 micron and then 1 micron film? Does the 3um film have a significantly finer scratch pattern than the 8k or does it just polish better? Without getting into the weeds of particle size and grit scales, this kind of makes me wonder how coarse your 8k really is, relatively speaking (relative to your films, anyway). So, along those lines, I kind of wonder how capable the Cnat will be to jump straight from that particular 8k. Have you tried going from the 3um film to the Cnat? That may be more successful in the short term--at the very least you should be able to make a good baseline comparison between the Cnat and 1um film. If the edges are comparable you could then explore trying to jump straight from the 8k to the Cnat. Or possibly finding a way to work the unused 10k into that progression.
 

rbscebu

Girls call me Makaluod
I completely understand what you're trying to accomplish here. I do have a couple questions and a suggestion. Am I remembering right that you are following the 8k synth with 3 micron and then 1 micron film? Does the 3um film have a significantly finer scratch pattern than the 8k or does it just polish better? Without getting into the weeds of particle size and grit scales, this kind of makes me wonder how coarse your 8k really is, relatively speaking (relative to your films, anyway). So, along those lines, I kind of wonder how capable the Cnat will be to jump straight from that particular 8k. Have you tried going from the 3um film to the Cnat? That may be more successful in the short term--at the very least you should be able to make a good baseline comparison between the Cnat and 1um film. If the edges are comparable you could then explore trying to jump straight from the 8k to the Cnat. Or possibly finding a way to work the unused 10k into that progression.
You provide plenty to think about. Thank you. I might try your suggestions once I have maxed out (to the best of my ability) the Cnat-only edge.
 
For reference, I took a beater (ignore the horrific horizontal scratches behind the bevel) just now and did about 30 laps on my Naniwa Hayabusa 4k. Then, I did a handful of light laps on the front half of the blade only, on a fresh piece of 3um film. The demarcation is visible even with the naked eye, unfortunately my shaky hands made getting a photo through my 10x loupe challenging but I think you can see the difference. The film scratches are clearly more pronounced (granted, the Hayabusa polishes very well, so it's not exactly a fair test). But theoretically 4k JIS is supposed to be around 3um.

The point here isn't to argue what is coarser ot finer, obviously there are a bunch of variables at play here. Rather to suggest you might try something like this with your 8k and the 3um film, just to get an idea of how they actually compare, both in terms of polish and coarseness.
20220607_174449.jpg
 

rbscebu

Girls call me Makaluod
After yesterday's shave with both the GD W59 and the T.H.70, I put both through a Cnat progression. My standard Cnat progression consists of:
  1. Develop a very light slurry on the Cnat using a 600 diamond plate.
  2. Fifteen laps plus 3 pull strokes.
  3. Add water.
  4. Fifteen laps plus 3 pull strokes.
  5. End for end the stone and add water.
  6. Fifteen laps plus 3 pull strokes.
  7. Add water, now down to no slurry.
  8. Fifteen laps plus 6 short X strokes.
All laps were done with weight-of-blade only.

The W59 was put through just one progression. Being much harder steel, the T.H.70 was put through three progressions.

The shave this morning, using the same number and type of passes as yesterday, produced a better result for both SRs. Not WOW better but noticeably better than yesterday off the 8k only.

I will keep on performing this Cnat progression routine until I notice no further improvement in the shaving with these two SRs. Once that it achieved, I will start experimenting as suggested by @Darth Scandalous.
 
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After yesterday's shave with both the GD W59 and the T.H.70, I put both through a Cnat progression.
I did not have luck with any of my JNats on the T.H.70. Just would not converge on a great edge. I think you're much better off with your diamond film + diamond-pasted balsa sequence for this razor.
 

rbscebu

Girls call me Makaluod
It's Working!

After yesterday's shave, I put the W59 through a single Cnat progression and the T.H.70 through three Cnat progressions due to its much harder steel. This morning's shave was an eye-opener.

The W59 was very comfortable. Not quite as close as a pasted balsa edge but about as comfortable as I would get from my other W59 off balsa. The T.H.70 shaved better than yesterday but still not as good as I expect.

For now, I will put the W59 through another Cnat progression, Ren wax it and put it away for future reference. The T.H.70 will get 3 progressions and remain in daily use until it stops improving.

Looks like I am starting to master this Cnat stone.
 

rbscebu

Girls call me Makaluod
Congratulations! It's very satisfying getting good edges from stones.
Yes, I agree that it is much more satisfying getting a good edge from natural stones. I think this is because, compared to films, the learning curve is much longer and steeper.

Using lapping films is a more mechanical whereas natural stones require a lot more intuitive response. I am still very glad that I started on films. They gave me a very good foundation to work on as I start into naturals.
 
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