My First Natural Finish

[H Brad Boonshaft]

The Cnat stones have been available for years and many have tested them, with the same conclusions.

Yes, they are hard, no they are not 12k, you cannot grit grade any Natural stone as no-one knows what is in your stone. But the consensus of many proficient honers that have lapped and tested the old Cnats have concluded the majority are not close to 12k performance.

Occasionally some Cnats can deliver keen edges, but those are few and the stone must be properly prepared.

Cnats like all hard stones must be lapped flat first, loose Silicone Carbide is the fastest, easiest and most efficient way to lap a hard stone. You can lap a hard stone with Wet & Dry, but you will go through a lot of paper, and it will take a long time, hours. A diamond plate is a waste of a diamond plate as these stone will rip the diamonds from the binder and not flatten the stone.

If you mark a grid on your stone with a sharpie, not pencil and can remove it completely in less than 10 laps, your stone is flat. If you use pencil, the slurry will wash off the pencil and the stone is still not flat.

Once flat how the stone is finished will determine the finish it can produce, 600 grit or burnished.

How the razor is finished will also determine the level of finish the stone can deliver, as they cut slowly, and if polished/burnished, cut slower. You can finish one side to 600 and burnish the other to polish to have a dual progression.

The razor must be finished to a high level at least 8k and final finished on the stone.

They are very technique driven. Some respond to pressure some not. These stones, at least the original Cnats ran the gamut in performance, though I doubt most were properly flattened and prepped and few were finishers.

So, as your first “Natural” stone, the odds were stacked against you, add to that your stone may be very different from the original Cnat that has been well tested for years.

Bottom line as other have said, there are better, easier stones to finish on that can produce predictable shaving edges, especially for your first foray into natural finishers.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

So, don’t get me wrong not bashing your stone or effort. Just that there may be a lot more potential to your stone that has not been unlocked. It will take some work to find it.

I think a lot, especially new honers go for that stone or old Cnats thinking it is $20 Surgical Black Ark… and they are not. They are then disappointed by naturals and Arks.

The set up/prep is a lot of work but it is a onetime expenditure, if done correctly. The gamble is the stone may not be a finisher.

The other issue is that the Film and paste method of honing is pretty foolproof because Film is so uniform and Diamond so aggressive. Even if you do not have a pristine film edge, Diamond paste will make its own edge. You can get almost the same edge from an 8k stropped on Diamond. 50 or so laps, removes all 8k stria. Diamond can spoil you.

So, the film/diamond combo is a near guaranteed “shaving edge”.

And that the rub, there is shaving, and there is SHAVING. The difference is about 2%, but it can be a world apart.

Keep swinging and do not let this stone define your natural edge conversion. Film and Paste are great and can make a smoking edge, but there are more comfortable edges with natural stones.

Getting to Sharp is easy, smooth and comfortable is another story.

 

[Titleist]

Getting to Sharp is easy, smooth and comfortable is another story.

And THIS ^^^^ should me on the Marquee on this forum masthead. No truer words in the honing world have been spoken.

 

[rbscebu]

....
All about experimenting. I don't see why you wouldn't want to at least try out the edges a lot of people love. ....

Budget.

 

[SilverGeezer]

I have a cnat that gives a really nice edge. It works best polished as smooth as you can get it.
It's burnished and shiny. It still puts a nice finish on an 8K edge in a reasonable time. Not balsa sharp, but very civilized.
It looks a lot like the photo you posted above.

 

[rbscebu]

I have a cnat that gives a really nice edge. It works best polished as smooth as you can get it.
It's burnished and shiny. It still puts a nice finish on an 8K edge in a reasonable time. Not balsa sharp, but very civilized.
It looks a lot like the photo you posted above.

I'll have to admit, the more I used this Cnat, the more polished it becomes.

Now for my second shave with the Cnat edge.

 

[rbscebu]

Have now finished my second comparison shave with the Cnat edge, performed the same as yesterday but swapping the sides of my face; Cnat to the left and balsa to the right.

The results were very similar to yesterday although the Cnat edge cut just a little better this morning than yesterday. Comfort wise, there was no difference. The Cnat is noticeably more comfortable in WTG only. All other directions, the comfort is about the same as the balsa edge, not that the balsa edge is uncomfortable. The balsa edge is quite comfortable to shave with and cuts the whiskers with ease and closer than the Cnat edge.

I also tried shaving with a steeper angle using the Cnat. No noticeable difference. I now have a SAS shave to the left and my normal DFS+ result on the right.

I will give the Cnat edge another progression on the Cnat stone like I did yesterday after my shave. The Cnat blade will then be put away for a while. I have another SR (off balsa) that I need to try for the first time, a pre 1924 T.R. Cadman ⅝.

I will post in this thread when I return to the Cnat edge.

 

[Legion]

I am just stating my opinion based on my experience. I tried a cnat that performed very meh for me. I have tried a bunch of other naturals including naturals from other people. Jnats were constantly the better edge for me, with arks and coticules performing good as well (better than the cnat I tried).

All about experimenting. I don't see why you wouldn't want to at least try out the edges a lot of people love. Not sure why there was aggression towards my reply.

I wasn’t trying to be aggressive, and I apologize if it came across that way.

I just get frustrated with broad statements like cnats are no good. Cnat means Chinese natural stone. Ok, so the one you tried was no good, and you liked other stones better. That is fine to say.

But with a sample size of one, claiming all sharpening stones from an entire country are inherently inferior to another countries is counter productive, and stops people doing research for themselves. Especially when those opinions are then repeated all the time by people who have never even tried one.

I have no dog in the fight, I don’t own a Chinese hone mine. But if I did I’d be a bit frustrated that people on Internet forums wouldn’t want to try my product just because it was from China, and they were told that guaranteed it was no good.

You see what I’m saying?

 

[cotedupy]

Given the physical size difference between China and Japan one would assume that the odds of more good hones would lie in Chinas favour.

This is undoubtedly true. Probably the majority of countries in the world have deposits with the potential of producing world class hones. It's the inclination or ability to get at them in a financially viable way that's the problem. The ones that we know, use, and talk about are quirks of economics, industry and history, rather than geology.

My favorite honing threads are guys who have already tried lots of different rocks, and still go hunting for new weird stuff in antique stores, or even digging them up themselves. That is being an enthusiast, not just treading a worn path.

Well I don't know about yours, but my wife thinks I'm a fool. Nice to have some validation here though!


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Very interesting read @rbscebu, cheers. Sounds like you're having some success already, as well as fun, which is what doing weird stuff like shaving with straights is about really anyway!

I may have mentioned this before, but I have a hunch that 'compound' edges on razors have a lot of potential. Involving something like taking a very good pasted balsa edge, and mellowing it slightly afterwards with just a few passes on a natural stone. Would be very interested to hear your thoughts if you try...

 

[JPO]

I may have mentioned this before, but I have a hunch that 'compound' edges on razors have a lot of potential. Involving something like taking a very good pasted balsa edge, and mellowing it slightly afterwards with just a few passes on a natural stone. Would be very interested to hear your thoughts if you try...

I used to do this a long time ago. I am not sure why I stopped. I would finish a full progression on stones and move to crox on balsa. Went back to a jnat with trace slurry to smooth out the edge. It works quite well.
I see some Japanese guys do this. If I am not mistaken Iwasaki mentioned this in his pamphlet.
I did not have finer compounds then.

Maybe the chat can be used the same way, more as a post finisher with a little slurry.

 

[cotedupy]

I used to do this a long time ago. I am not sure why I stopped. I would finish a full progression on stones and move to crox on balsa. Went back to a jnat with trace slurry to smooth out the edge. It works quite well.
I see some Japanese guys do this. If I am not mistaken Iwasaki mentioned this in his pamphlet.
I did not have finer compounds then.

Maybe the chat can be used the same way, more as a post finisher with a little slurry.

Ah interesting! Yeah I assumed the first person to think of something like this. Though I've not tried it properly myself, just knew that my thinking was sound enough to make it an interesting possibility, especially for someone like OP who's a diamond paste expert.

(You've reminded me that I've never actually read the Iwasaki text. And a quick google turns it up on KJ's site, so I look forward to that later. Ta.)

 

[rbscebu]

This is an interesting thought. The T.H-70 may be too hard for my Cnat to be overly effective on. I might put it through a diamond pasted balsa strop progression and then "mellow" it on the Cnat. What do you all think?

 

[Legion]

This is an interesting thought. The T.H-70 may be too hard for my Cnat to be overly effective on. I might put it through a diamond pasted balsa strop progression and then "mellow" it on the Cnat. What do you all think?

Cant hurt to try.

Probably get the razor to where you think it's sharp enough on balsa, then ten light X strokes, water only on the stone.

 

[rbscebu]

Cant hurt to try.

Probably get the razor to where you think it's sharp enough on balsa, then ten light X strokes, water only on the stone.

I feel that it's kind of cheating but it just may work. I can always look at trying a Cnat edge only on a softer steel SR later. I have a spare Titan ACRM-2 T.H.60 and a ¾ Cadman Bengall that I could use for that. The Bengall would be the softer of the two.

 

[Legion]

I feel that it's kind of cheating but it just may work. I can always look at trying a Cnat edge only on a softer steel SR later. I have a spare Titan ACRM-2 T.H.60 and a ¾ Cadman Bengall that I could use for that. The Bengall would be the softer of the two.

Well, I mean, it IS cheating. But it's still worth trying to see what happens.

 

[JPO]

This is an interesting thought. The T.H-70 may be too hard for my Cnat to be overly effective on. I might put it through a diamond pasted balsa strop progression and then "mellow" it on the Cnat. What do you all think?

As you know balsa creates a little micro convexity. I am not sure if you will get enough contact with the whole bevel plane, but slurry works in mysterious ways
Would be interesting to see what you come up with.

 

[cotedupy]

Yeah I assumed the first person to think of something like this.

assumed *I wasn’t* the first...

 

[JPO]

Ah interesting! Yeah I assumed the first person to think of something like this. Though I've not tried it properly myself, just knew that my thinking was sound enough to make it an interesting possibility, especially for someone like OP who's a diamond paste expert.

(You've reminded me that I've never actually read the Iwasaki text. And a quick google turns it up on KJ's site, so I look forward to that later. Ta.)

I think the two last steps in Iwasaki's paper is open to interpretation. I think he indicates that the so called Raxa hone, which is charged with Green Powder is used for deburring. To avoid the rounded apex it is recommended to finish on the stone with edge trailing strokes and end with some parallel strokes. I am not sure if he means you should skip the Raxa hone or follow it with a finishing step on the stone.
He also only recommend doing 3 strokes on the Crox on each side of the bevel.

 

[cotedupy]

I feel that it's kind of cheating but it just may work.

Perhaps, if the point of the exercise is to be able to say: ‘Natural stones are better than diamond paste’ or vice versa.

Though actually we all know already that they’re both valid, but different. What’s more interesting would be to know whether you think that a ‘reverse’ combination of the two might be an improvement on either alone. If you can capture the best of both worlds...

 

[Legion]

I think the two last steps in Iwasaki's paper is open to interpretation. I think he indicates that the so called Raxa hone, which is charged with Green Powder is used for deburring. To avoid the rounded apex it is recommended to finish on the stone with edge trailing strokes and end with some parallel strokes. I am not sure if he means you should skip the Raxa hone or follow it with a finishing step on the stone.
He also only recommend doing 3 strokes on the Crox on each side of the bevel.
View attachment 1466227

16.5kg of pressure?? He is really leaning into that thing!