My first hone

[JPO]

I raise the burr by doing up and Down strokes with the razor on one side. I detect the burr by sliding my finger on the edge, away from the spine. I make sure I feel it along the whole edge.

It sounds to me that you are honing it like i would hone a knife. If you have a good feel for how the edge develops by doing it this way just continue. I would stick to only edge leading strokes and check if the edge is set by using suitable test.
Creating and feeling for the burr, like i think you are referring to sounds aggressive for a razor.
up and down strokes? You might be removing more material on the back stroke closer to the bevel shoulder then closer to the edge. If you are not controlling the pressure properly you will just create a big burr. When that burr brakes off you might be left with a less then optimal starting point for your next stone in your progression to refine.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

Are you honing, “Setting the Bevel with the Burr Method” that was recommended in post 13?

You did 200 laps on one side?

 

[TheBeast]

Are you honing, “Setting the Bevel with the Burr Method” that was recommended in post 13?

You did 200 laps on one side?

Yes I read that a few times, it said raising the burr could take as few laps as 50, but could take thousaunds. I raised the burr on both sides after 200 laps on each side. Then I did alternating laps.

In another session I raised the burr after 100 laps each side, again followed with alternating laps. Last 50 laps I did very lightly.

Sometines the blade shaved a little better, sometines not at all, the edge didn't catch on my thumpad (a test I do to figure out how the edge feels) most of the times, but even if it felt okay, there were still clearly visible reflections on the edge when I looked straight Down on it.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

If you did 100 or 200 aggressive straight strokes, on a single side, on a 1k, no wonder you have a frown and have ground off probably a 1/16 inch off the spine and considerable blade width.

That is not the recommended method of honing a razor. I know there are a few that use it, but as you have found, it is a good way to trash a razor.

You will need to bread knife the edge straight and use a heel forward alternating stroke to get the heel honed because of the wonky grind of the spine over the heel.

After hundreds of aggressive straight laps, you likely need to re-lap your stone flat, with a diamond plate or sheet of 220. Mark a grid with a pencil and remove the grid, 3-4 times. Slurry will wash off a pencil grid and the stone is still not flat. When you can remove a new grid in less than 10 laps, the stone is flat.

You have good stones, more than you need, buying a new set up for lapping films will not improve your results if you continue to use the same methods. It’s not the stone.

Doing the same thing, expecting different results, is… not working.

 

[TheBeast]

I'm lapping the stone frequently, before every session, sometimes even Once or twice during honing. I pay good attention to having the Stone flat.

Could you please elaborate on "bread knife"-ing the edge?

 

[Timeclo]

That's how the razor looks after a session which I stopped because that heel needs attention to remove the frown. Note that before sitting Down and trying to set the bevel, the heel was freshly reprofiled and moved further from the stabilizer.

The heel looks profiled enough to not mess with the edge. My thought is that towards the heel, the blade is warped towards one side, creating a larger bevel on one side compared to the other. Looking at the spine wear, both edges should should be touching the stone but it is odd that one side has a frown + bigger bevel and the other, almost no bevel at all. I'm thinking that the blade is warped towards the side with the bigger bevel, giving more contact on the stone and the other side, less contact.

What I would do is ignore the frown and focus on the setting the bevel, and see how it comes out. You might get a decent result or it might not work at all. If it doesn't work, I'd pick up another straight and and leave this one out for a while. I'm still learning this craft so this is just one suggestion... take it with a grain of salt.

 

[TheBeast]

The heel looks profiled enough to not mess with the edge. My thought is that towards the heel, the blade is warped towards one side, creating a larger bevel on one side compared to the other. Looking at the spine wear, both edges should should be touching the stone but it is odd that one side has a frown + bigger bevel and the other, almost no bevel at all. I'm thinking that the blade is warped towards the side with the bigger bevel, giving more contact on the stone and the other side, less contact.

What I would do is ignore the frown and focus on the setting the bevel, and see how it comes out. You might get a decent result or it might not work at all. If it doesn't work, I'd pick up another straight and and leave this one out for a while. I'm still learning this craft so this is just one suggestion... take it with a grain of salt.

Yes I was thinking about getting a 10$ vintage one and just give it a go, compare how it behaves on the Stone and how the edge would look like. If I trash another cheap razor, I will not get a new one. But I am tempted to buy a shave ready straight which I will not hone myself, just to shave with. I will see how it goes.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

Bread knifing is a technique to straighten an edge or remove a chip, where you hone with the edge on the stone and the razor straight up 90 degrees to the stone.

The trick is to measure the width of your blade at the narrowest width, (the bottom of the frown in your case) and draw a straight line with a sharpie so that you cut to that line across the whole edge, and you end up with a straight, but blunt edge and an even blade width from heel to toe.

The steel is thin at the edge, so it does not take much to grind the edge straight. Then you just bring the bevels back to meeting at the straight edge.

You should only use the sharpie line as a guide and measure the width often, so you end up with an even width.

Lapping frequently is not uncommon, I lap my stones as needed and always before the final laps on each stone. Some stones need more lapping than others.

A heel forward X stroke will get that heel honed, but if you do not straighten the edge, you may make it worse.

Frowns can be removed by honing, but it is technique driven.

I was not aware you were using that honing technique and saw the linked video for the first time…not something I would recommend.

 

[TheBeast]

Hello everyone,

Today I set the bevel on 380 sandpaper, then refined it on 600 sandpaper. The sandpaper was sticked to the tile that I use while lapping the stones.

Then I followed with my 3k and removed all the scratches. It did take some time but it's where it needs to be (at least I hope so).

When I used 1k after the 600, the edge got ruined.

This was all done with the spine double taped to prevent further spine wear (which is already horrible). The razor shaves Arm hair easily at a low angle and no Pressure.

I used X strokes with the feel forward at around 60° - this strokes passed the sharpie test beautifly.

My questions:

Why didn't the 1k Stone work? It now Has about 3mm od wear, it's noticably thinner than the other stones (they are barely used). I did lap it frequently - perhaps too much.

How long until the Stone needs to be replaced? Is it already gone and that's why I couldnt get it to work properly?




Anyway, I'm Happy for today and tommorow I will finnish the honing and use my whole progression of stones, then test shave the razor.

 

[TheBeast]

The razor shaves.

I couldn't wait. I finnished the progression, stropped and shaved.

It was close to a shavette experience. I'm still new to SR shaving so I just know that I'm close and I had some Nice Sting from alum (too much pressure).

This SR now shaves WAY better than it did after being honed by a man who considers himself a professional. With your help, I was able to produce a better edge.

Sure, it's nothing to write home about, barely passes hanging hair test and some scratches weren't removed completely. But it's my first so I'm proud and happy about it.

Some swedish vintage razor for 13$ shipped is on it's way to me and hopefully that edge will shave better. Now it's just about sitting Down, reading up and training. A lot.

Thank you All.

 

[Slash McCoy]

I was going to suggest dropping the 1k and skipping to the next stone, but it looks like you got it. You could try refreshing the edge on your finisher frequently, before you really need it, and in time your finisher should get that edge in pretty good tune, now that you got it shaving okay. Most finishers will give you very strong "stiction" when you are just about done. This is when the bevel and the stone are so closely mated that surface tension of the honing water creates sort of a vacuum, pulling the razor down onto the stone, making it feel like it is sticking. At this point switch to very short x strokes and pressure as light as you can manage, just a few more laps, and you should have a nicely peaked edge indeed.

What brand is your 1k stone? It sounds like maybe it is not a very good one. Sometimes that happens. Some stones, like Nortons, behave more like a much coarser stone than their grit ratings, and also there are several different grit scales in use. If you have a Shapton or Naniwa 1k, there is PROBABLY nothing wrong with it, but who knows? If it is a King or Bear Moo or Sharp Pebble or other such stone, well, sometimes you get what you pay for.

Lucky for you, you will never again have to set the bevel on that razor, anyway. Your finisher alone can handle it from now on out, unless you decide to up your game and put a diamond pasted balsa kit together.

You should be able to find vintage Soviet or German razors, maybe Polish made razors, in your country or near enough, for reasonable prices. Try another razor, and maybe skip your 1k altogether. See what happens.

 

[TheBeast]

I was going to suggest dropping the 1k and skipping to the next stone, but it looks like you got it. You could try refreshing the edge on your finisher frequently, before you really need it, and in time your finisher should get that edge in pretty good tune, now that you got it shaving okay. Most finishers will give you very strong "stiction" when you are just about done. This is when the bevel and the stone are so closely mated that surface tension of the honing water creates sort of a vacuum, pulling the razor down onto the stone, making it feel like it is sticking. At this point switch to very short x strokes and pressure as light as you can manage, just a few more laps, and you should have a nicely peaked edge indeed.

What brand is your 1k stone? It sounds like maybe it is not a very good one. Sometimes that happens. Some stones, like Nortons, behave more like a much coarser stone than their grit ratings, and also there are several different grit scales in use. If you have a Shapton or Naniwa 1k, there is PROBABLY nothing wrong with it, but who knows? If it is a King or Bear Moo or Sharp Pebble or other such stone, well, sometimes you get what you pay for.

Lucky for you, you will never again have to set the bevel on that razor, anyway. Your finisher alone can handle it from now on out, unless you decide to up your game and put a diamond pasted balsa kit together.

You should be able to find vintage Soviet or German razors, maybe Polish made razors, in your country or near enough, for reasonable prices. Try another razor, and maybe skip your 1k altogether. See what happens.

All my stones are Naniwa. I want to try itthe 1k again with a different razor while really focusing on my technique and try to understand where the issue is.

Also, this Titan Has noticable scratches so I might even go back to the 3k and take some more time there before I progress, really make sure it's pure Mirror after the 12k.

 

[Timeclo]

Hello everyone,

Today I set the bevel on 380 sandpaper, then refined it on 600 sandpaper. The sandpaper was sticked to the tile that I use while lapping the stones.

Then I followed with my 3k and removed all the scratches. It did take some time but it's where it needs to be (at least I hope so).

When I used 1k after the 600, the edge got ruined.

This was all done with the spine double taped to prevent further spine wear (which is already horrible). The razor shaves Arm hair easily at a low angle and no Pressure.

I used X strokes with the feel forward at around 60° - this strokes passed the sharpie test beautifly.

My questions:

Why didn't the 1k Stone work? It now Has about 3mm od wear, it's noticably thinner than the other stones (they are barely used). I did lap it frequently - perhaps too much.

How long until the Stone needs to be replaced? Is it already gone and that's why I couldnt get it to work properly?




Anyway, I'm Happy for today and tommorow I will finnish the honing and use my whole progression of stones, then test shave the razor.

Glad it worked out for you. As for the 1K stone, that is odd. Maybe the stone is not flat or has some other issue with it. Good thing is that you narrowed down to what the issue is.

 

[Slash McCoy]

All my stones are Naniwa. I want to try itthe 1k again with a different razor while really focusing on my technique and try to understand where the issue is.

Also, this Titan Has noticable scratches so I might even go back to the 3k and take some more time there before I progress, really make sure it's pure Mirror after the 12k.

Taking it back to the 3k? That might not help but it won't hurt much, at the worst. Give it a try! Keep your pressure light and decreasing as you go, to very light. Remember to throw some pull strokes in there, and finish each stage with some very short x strokes. Actually, in the Naniwa SuperStone lineup, the 3k is the one that I like the least. It loads up with swarf and glazes over very quickly. It is consistent, yeah, but ur... well they might have changed it by now. But lap it a little before every use and it should be okay. Re-lap as needed. I like the 8k and 12k, though. Honestly I like my 1k too, and I clean up my bevels set on the Naniwa Chosera 1k with the SuperStone 1k. The Norton 1k, too, as it actually behaves more like about a 600 grit, for me. I do find that my 1k Chosera bevels are a little rough sometimes, but the Chosera sure does get the heavy lifting done.

Uh oh, oven is beeping. Promised Mrs. McCoy some choc chip cookies and I don't wanna burn them.

 

[TheBeast]

Taking it back to the 3k? That might not help but it won't hurt much, at the worst. Give it a try! Keep your pressure light and decreasing as you go, to very light. Remember to throw some pull strokes in there, and finish each stage with some very short x strokes. Actually, in the Naniwa SuperStone lineup, the 3k is the one that I like the least. It loads up with swarf and glazes over very quickly. It is consistent, yeah, but ur... well they might have changed it by now. But lap it a little before every use and it should be okay. Re-lap as needed. I like the 8k and 12k, though. Honestly I like my 1k too, and I clean up my bevels set on the Naniwa Chosera 1k with the SuperStone 1k. The Norton 1k, too, as it actually behaves more like about a 600 grit, for me. I do find that my 1k Chosera bevels are a little rough sometimes, but the Chosera sure does get the heavy lifting done.

Uh oh, oven is beeping. Promised Mrs. McCoy some choc chip cookies and I don't wanna burn them.

Yeah I think I left some 600, possibly 320 scratches on there. It gets difficult for me to make out if the scratches from the previous stone are actually gone but I reckon I just need practice.

The swarf issue is really annoying on these super stones, I just learned about what it actually is but I know I have Been getting rid of it by lapping and now nearly half of the Stone is gone and it didn't even set a single bevel...

 

[Slash McCoy]

Yeah I think I left some 600, possibly 320 scratches on there. It gets difficult for me to make out if the scratches from the previous stone are actually gone but I reckon I just need practice.

The swarf issue is really annoying on these super stones, I just learned about what it actually is but I know I have Been getting rid of it by lapping and now nearly half of the Stone is gone and it didn't even set a single bevel...

Sandpaper can be tricky. The problem with sandpaper is the abrasive particles are not as tightly graded, and some sit lower or higher in the resin substrate. So you get a few proud particles that dig deep scratches. When honing on sandpaper it is a good idea to first of all jump up a grit or two in fineness, and second, to hone a cheap stainless steel chef knife or similar on the paper to knock those proud particles loose before putting a razor to them. Your 320 grit paper probably made a few 180 grit level scratches. I like using sandpaper for coarse work and it makes sense to use it for coarse work when otherwise you would have to buy a stone that you might seldom use and be a long time in recouping the purchase price for it. But do be aware that sandpaper has its evil side. BTW I much prefer the red resin type sandpapers. They are much more consistent and homogenous, and last longer. Anyway yeah very likely your scratches originate with your sandpaper. If you think you need to start at 320, start at 600. If you think you need to start at 600, try 1k instead. Nice fresh red resin wet/dry cuts nice and fast, when it is new. Don't go too heavy on the pressure and it will get the job done before it wears out.

A year or two ago I was honing and selling Gold Dollars, and moving quite a lot of razors. I decided that I needed to go ahead and buy coarse stones instead of using sandpaper, as when you use them a lot, the coarse stones end up being cheaper than sandpaper. Ended up with several 220 and 320 grit stones and I like my Shapton Kuromaku best in that range, and my 600 grit Chosera to bridge to the normal bevel setter. Sandpaper makes a lot of sense when you only have one or a few razors to do, but for quite a lot of them you will want to go with stones. Another good option is 60µ and 30µ lapping film. 15µ, 12µ, or sometimes 9µ film are the usual grits that are regarded as bevel setters. Because film lasts so much longer, it is more economical than sandpaper, and it is very consistent. Sometimes I hone on film, sometimes on stones. Most of the time, actually, on film.

 

[TheBeast]

Sandpaper can be tricky. The problem with sandpaper is the abrasive particles are not as tightly graded, and some sit lower or higher in the resin substrate. So you get a few proud particles that dig deep scratches. When honing on sandpaper it is a good idea to first of all jump up a grit or two in fineness, and second, to hone a cheap stainless steel chef knife or similar on the paper to knock those proud particles loose before putting a razor to them. Your 320 grit paper probably made a few 180 grit level scratches. I like using sandpaper for coarse work and it makes sense to use it for coarse work when otherwise you would have to buy a stone that you might seldom use and be a long time in recouping the purchase price for it. But do be aware that sandpaper has its evil side. BTW I much prefer the red resin type sandpapers. They are much more consistent and homogenous, and last longer. Anyway yeah very likely your scratches originate with your sandpaper. If you think you need to start at 320, start at 600. If you think you need to start at 600, try 1k instead. Nice fresh red resin wet/dry cuts nice and fast, when it is new. Don't go too heavy on the pressure and it will get the job done before it wears out.

A year or two ago I was honing and selling Gold Dollars, and moving quite a lot of razors. I decided that I needed to go ahead and buy coarse stones instead of using sandpaper, as when you use them a lot, the coarse stones end up being cheaper than sandpaper. Ended up with several 220 and 320 grit stones and I like my Shapton Kuromaku best in that range, and my 600 grit Chosera to bridge to the normal bevel setter. Sandpaper makes a lot of sense when you only have one or a few razors to do, but for quite a lot of them you will want to go with stones. Another good option is 60µ and 30µ lapping film. 15µ, 12µ, or sometimes 9µ film are the usual grits that are regarded as bevel setters. Because film lasts so much longer, it is more economical than sandpaper, and it is very consistent. Sometimes I hone on film, sometimes on stones. Most of the time, actually, on film.

Great tips, I wanted to try to buy a set of films for 20$ and an acrylic plate so I might get into it sometime.

I wanted to try a gold dollar as well. Are those on ebay from China for around 10$ actually usable? What would you recommend?

 

[rbscebu]

Great tips, I wanted to try to buy a set of films for 20$ and an acrylic plate so I might get into it sometime.

I wanted to try a gold dollar as well. Are those on ebay from China for around 10$ actually usable? What would you recommend?

For lapping films, you may be interested in this:

Online Lapping Film Honing Course - September 2022

With the encouragement of students from the previous course, I have decided to again run a course for beginners on Lapping Film Honing on a monthly basis starting at the beginning of each month until interest wanes. Each course is restricted to five students only. First read the attached course...

www.badgerandblade.com

The Gold Dollars on eBay/AliExpress are good. Their metal is not quite as hard as your Titan ACRM-2 T.H.60 so they hone up with a little less effort. If getting a Gold Dollar, try for a Gold Dollar 208 or P81 (a.k.a. 1996). Failing those, the next choice should be a Gold Dollar 66 which may need a bit more to get the heel to your liking.

 

[Slash McCoy]

Great tips, I wanted to try to buy a set of films for 20$ and an acrylic plate so I might get into it sometime.

I wanted to try a gold dollar as well. Are those on ebay from China for around 10$ actually usable? What would you recommend?

Are they usable? You tell me.

The 800 is a rather decent razor, actually. The 300 is pretty good. The 208 is okay, and the P-81. The 66 is just adequate, but as you can see from the video, good enough to gitter done. Any of those will work but generally the higher the model number, the better the quality control. I suggest you get more than one if you get one. They are cheap, so if you mess one up, good to have another one. You don't have to be afraid to try stuff with a GD as they are very expendable.

 

[Rosseforp]

I wanted to try a gold dollar as well. Are those on ebay from China for around 10$ actually usable?

This is a Gold Dollar 66 that I just ordered from amazon for $17, although I'm sure you can find them cheaper if you are willing to wait a few weeks.

This was before I modified the heel.

Shave ready after modifying the heel.

~doug~