My 2nd Vintage SR. Tell Me About This Edge, Please.

[Slash McCoy]

That makes a lot of sense where you are in your journey.

I am thinking I might have done myself a disservice. The Method really works with the pre-existing knowledge I had already carried forward for honing, so I jumped right into making Method edges. However, when my razors got to me, one was a Coti edge, the other an Escher Thuringian. I am wondering now if I might have been better to shave with those until they needed re-honing before starting them from punt with The Method.

Now that I've learned a bit about shaving, I am beginning to wonder how they differ from the Method edges I've grown accustomed to.

It can be very interesting to try different types of edges, once you have a few dozen shaves under your belt. The easy and cheap way to try different edges is to let others do the honing when you buy the razors. Don't be in a hurry to invest in a big pile of rocks that you might not even like. Try the edges and if you find one you like better, then buy that type rock or other media and try duplicate it. You may very well end up preferring the method edge, but you don't know until you try other edges and its fun anyway.

 

[Twelvefret]

Yes, it would be exactly like film. I did test that one

Okay, now which stone with that grit is the next question. I just threw these together.

3000-6000
https://www.amazon.com/Premium-Whet...51&sr=8-4&keywords=1200+grit+sharpening+stone
1200
https://www.amazon.com/King-Brand-D...98&sr=8-5&keywords=1200+grit+sharpening+stone
12,000
https://www.amazon.com/Whetstone-Sh...2&sr=8-3&keywords=12000+grit+sharpening+stone

You'd have to add a lapping stone or use 600 grit sand paper. https://www.amazon.com/Flattening-S...&qid=1540371586&sr=8-3&keywords=lapping+stone


I have no idea if these are compatible, just trying to find something close to lapping films.

 

[Twelvefret]

It can be very interesting to try different types of edges, once you have a few dozen shaves under your belt. The easy and cheap way to try different edges is to let others do the honing when you buy the razors. Don't be in a hurry to invest in a big pile of rocks that you might not even like. Try the edges and if you find one you like better, then buy that type rock or other media and try duplicate it. You may very well end up preferring the method edge, but you don't know until you try other edges and its fun anyway.

The first vintage razors I got were honed by others. I know one prefers Shapton, one used JNAT. The ones I honed myself on films and later stropped turned out to be as or more sharp. Perhaps it due to me going through 6 microns vs four grits. There has to be something different is taking an edge down incrementally. Some use tape, I don't.

 

[steveclarkus]

The first vintage razors I got were honed by others. I know one prefers Shapton, one used JNAT. The ones I honed myself on films and later stropped turned out to be as or more sharp. Perhaps it due to me going through 6 microns vs four grits. There has to be something different is taking an edge down incrementally. Some use tape, I don't.

I think @Dzaw would be a much better source than I as i really don’t have experience with stones.

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

Agree. I would like to experience them as well. I expect most eBay sellers use synthetic stones. Johnloc1 hones to 12k which will comfortably shave. I’ve read that coticule edges are around 8k but I believe there are differing qualities of them. I doubt anything will please me more than a 200k edge though but I won’t know until I try them.

Glad to hear it. I have two of his vintage razors coming soon. Probably tomorrow.

Have I mentioned what a patient person I am?

My NOS razor from JR was not honed. He was going to hone it, but said it didn't need honing (it's the original subject of this thread). I have of course no idea what sort of honing was done at the factory whenever the razor was made, but I like the razor.

A number of people I consider knowledgeable suggest sending a razor out to be honed purely in order to experience a blade honed by the method the craftsman uses. In other words, send it once to Mr. Jnat and later to Mr. Coti, and later to Mr. Shapton, etc. That way you get a real taste of what the various edges feel like.

Of course you could just buy every sharpening system known to man and God and learn them all and find out that way.

Happy shaves,

Jim

 

[Twelvefret]

Glad to hear it. I have two of his vintage razors coming soon. Probably tomorrow.

Have I mentioned what a patient person I am?

My NOS razor from JR was not honed. He was going to hone it, but said it didn't need honing (it's the original subject of this thread). I have of course no idea what sort of honing was done at the factory whenever the razor was made, but I like the razor.

A number of people I consider knowledgeable suggest sending a razor out to be honed purely in order to experience a blade honed by the method the craftsman uses. In other words, send it once to Mr. Jnat and later to Mr. Coti, and later to Mr. Sharpton, etc. That way you get a real taste of what the various edges feel like.

View attachment 922581

Of course you could just buy every sharpening system known to man and God and learn them all and find out that way.

Happy shaves,

Jim

Or you could do what I suggested to you and buy the film packet and hone it yourself. This way it doesn’t matter what the seller says.

JR is getting one ready for me. @steveclarkus has seen it. He’s sending it out to be hones by someone who prefers a different hone material from the Shapton he uses.

Does it really matter if it shaved how you do it? Not to me.

 

[Dzaw]

I think @Dzaw would be a much better source than I as i really don’t have experience with stones.

Thanks for the vote of confidence, but all of my stone experience is on Arkansas stones in knife sharpening. As I am learning, almost all of the basics are the same, but razor edges are more delicate and less forgiving. What I am learning more and more is that patience and a light touch are real important on hard honing surfaces, but much less critical when moving on to stropping - even / especially abrasive stropping.

I’ve spent the last 18 or so hours devouring all of the content on

scienceofsharp

Thank you @Bad_B2!!!

As a result of the things I e been learning I have made a couple of decisions / observations;

1: I will be altering how I use the pasted balsa a little bit - fewer laps (20 should be more than sufficient) with more pressure (1-2 razor weight is about right - not enough pressure to make the body of the razor flex, but just barely enough to begin to compress balsa fibers).

2: I will also be altering how I use the leather strop - I had previously been stropping on leather before and after balsa, I will be running 20-30 laps after balsa only.

3: As I read and re-read the available information and results fro different methods and materials, I am re-losing any interest I had been developing in trying various edges. The Method is perfectly sufficient, and while it is a little more time consuming and effort intensive than is strictly necessary, it is also easy to understand, accomplish, and I already have everything I need.

Incorporating everything I’ve learned from various prior sources into the new things I’ve been learning at the science of sharp site leads me to believe a slightly simpler less time and effort intensive version of The Method is possible, But would also lead to a minor sacrifice in final results.

As our own @SlashMcCoy has said “Best results are the only results worth pursuing”. I couldn’t agree more.

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

Okay, now which stone with that grit is the next question. I just threw these together.

3000-6000
https://www.amazon.com/Premium-Whet...51&sr=8-4&keywords=1200+grit+sharpening+stone
1200
https://www.amazon.com/King-Brand-D...98&sr=8-5&keywords=1200+grit+sharpening+stone
12,000
https://www.amazon.com/Whetstone-Sh...2&sr=8-3&keywords=12000+grit+sharpening+stone

You'd have to add a lapping stone or use 600 grit sand paper. https://www.amazon.com/Flattening-S...&qid=1540371586&sr=8-3&keywords=lapping+stone


I have no idea if these are compatible, just trying to find something close to lapping films.

Thanks for the link to the Japanese version (much cheaper in price) version of the Shapton stones, linked.

I'd heard of these, but reading the reviews on Amazon was interesting and helpful.

I have no idea what stones go with what stones. Nor do I know what stones are close to lapping films. I've read all sorts of things and only have my little set, linked. In other words, I'm a beginner and just learning. From what I've read there are many opinions but the edge is the thing and not the grit.

Setting the bevel is very important so I decided to buy the best 1K stone. Plus 1K stones are relatively inexpensive compared to higher grit numbered stones. Did I make the right decision? I have no idea.

One of the pieces of advice I read and took at least semi-seriously was to get good at producing a good edge with the 8K stone. The Classic Edge guy says the 8K I purchased is a finishing stone; he also says it produces an edge comparable to some 16K stones. Of course I find that a little hard to understand, but I find all the honing stuff hard to assimilate. Anyway, I like his simple little writeup on honing so I'll link it here. For me personally simple is a good starting and reference point.

Towards the end of maxing out my 8K stone I've gone through the progression to 8K and then used the 8K stone again but with shaving soap lather on the stone and with a super light touch (Slash @Slash McCoy has a post somewhere about doing this if memory serves me, but I can't find the post right now). Does doing this produce a great edge? I don't know because I'm such a newbie I don't know anything. It's just something I tried.

I really like my lapping stone (so far). It's this one, linked. The vendor brags on its hardness, quality, and size. It's also a lot less expensive than some especially at the introductory price. It's the only one I've used or know anything about and I don't know much so I'm not saying buy it.

I should mention I've ordered a Zulu Grey stone but the vendor says the stone won't arrive for three or four months. Will it be a great stone? How would I know but I want to try one or more natural finishing stones. Link.

If you're anything like me I'll bet you're thinking about rabbit holes about now, and I've not even mentioned jnats and the fact that I want to try The Method so I've gotta buy the stuff to do that too. Maybe sticking with The Method is a better plan if you like the edge and have the kit.

I don't know anything.

Happy shaves,

Jim

 

[Twelvefret]

Thanks for the link to the Japanese version (much cheaper in price) version of the Shapton stones, linked.

View attachment 922586

I'd heard of these, but reading the reviews on Amazon was interesting and helpful.

I have no idea what stones go with what stones. Nor do I know what stones are close to lapping films. I've read all sorts of things and only have my little set, linked. In other words, I'm a beginner and just learning. From what I've read there are many opinions but the edge is the thing and not the grit.

Setting the bevel is very important so I decided to buy the best 1K stone. Plus 1K stones are relatively inexpensive compared to higher grit numbered stones. Did I make the right decision? I have no idea.

One of the pieces of advice I read and took at least semi-seriously was to get good at producing a good edge with the 8K stone. The Classic Edge guy says the 8K I purchased is a finishing stone; he also says it produces an edge comparable to some 16K stones. Of course I find that a little hard to understand, but I find all the honing stuff hard to assimilate. Anyway, I like his simple little writeup on honing so I'll link it here. For me personally simple is a good starting and reference point.

Towards the end of maxing out my 8K stone I've gone through the progression to 8K and then used the 8K stone again but with shaving soap lather on the stone and with a super light touch (Slash @Slash McCoy has a post somewhere about doing this if memory serves me, but I can't find the post right now). Does doing this produce a great edge? I don't know because I'm such a newbie I don't know anything. It's just something I tried.

I really like my lapping stone (so far). It's this one, linked. The vendor brags on its hardness, quality, and size. It's also a lot less expensive than some especially at the introductory price. It's the only one I've used or know anything about and I don't know much so I'm not saying buy it.

I should mention I've ordered a Zulu Grey stone but the vendor says the stone won't arrive for three or four months. Will it be a great stone? How would I know but I want to try one or more natural finishing stones. Link.

If you're anything like me I'll bet you're thinking about rabbit holes about now, and I've not even mentioned jnats and the fact that I want to try The Method so I've gotta buy the stuff to do that too. Maybe sticking with The Method is a better plan if you like the edge and have the kit.

I don't know anything.

Happy shaves,

Jim

We’ve discussed this 30 microns is close to 600.
Grit = Micron = Mesh Conversion Chart

Basically we need four stone to equal or get close to film.

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

Or you could do what I suggested to you and buy the film packet and hone it yourself. This way it doesn’t matter what the seller says.

JR is getting one ready for me. @steveclarkus has seen it. He’s sending it out to be hones by someone who prefers a different hone material from the Shapton he uses.

Does it really matter if it shaved how you do it? Not to me.

Well, I'm not sure that just having it shave is the be all and the end all. Obviously it has to shave. Still, lots of people like one edge over another. Other people talk about how one set of stones works well with one razor whereas another set works better with another having perhaps different steel. We want it to shave but also be comfortable and feel "right" and "nice" to us.

I think that's what you're referring to. JR uses Shaptons; his ancillary honemeister uses, I think, jnats, and certainly something other than what JR uses. Different finishes at least subjectively.

I'm with you. Whatever works. At this point I want a razor which will shave decently as I'm really just learning to shave. Much of the more esoteric stuff is really just fun for me to read about. The little bit of honing I've done so far has been entirely on Gold Dollars and my YZ practice razors. However, I have three vintage razors in transit which will have to be honed.

To me some of this is the desire (and maybe the need) to get a really good, sharp, comfortable edge. Some is just hobby stuff. Some, subjective.

I have no idea why I acquired the stones instead of the lapping film first. I could say I was drawn to the stones, but what does that mean.

There's a huge amount of information and probably a good bit of misinformation, but the main thing to me is just starting somewhere and getting in some practice with a honing method. It sounds to me like you're getting great edges with lapping film, but I appreciated your post on stones with the Amazon links.

I only want to know what the vendors use so I can know a bit about the edge I'm experiencing with the various razors they sell me shave-ready. I can hone them later and certainly will end up doing so unless I get from the vendor an edge I like which lasts as long as I use the razor.

I know from the safety razor blades I've used that some are not at all to my liking. They may be very sharp, but that doesn't mean I like them. They may also bother my skin or feel weird to me and be great for another guy. I settled on one DE blade which seems both sharp and smooth and comfortable (for me). I found an AC blade I like and also injector blades I like. I hope to find a good edge for my SR whether its an edge I hone or someone else hones.

The Method may be the best way!

Happy shaves,

Jim

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

We’ve discussed this 30 microns is close to 600.
Grit = Micron = Mesh Conversion Chart

Basically we need four stone to equal or get close to film.

Yes. I've also seen conflicting information published. I'm not at all sure it's standardized very well, but the chart is a starting and reference point.

Natural stones? Even more guesswork.

 

[Twelvefret]

Yes. I've also seen conflicting information published. I'm not at all sure it's standardized very well, but the chart is a starting and reference point.

Natural stones? Even more guesswork.

I have honed and shaved with for razors to date. You can to and be forever happy and clean shaven....!!!

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

I have honed and shaved with for razors to date. You can to and be forever happy and clean shaven....!!!

So far I've had only relatively lousy SR shaves which means I'm far behind you if you're clean shaven after a shave with a SR.

My shaves with any razor, including my best and favorite safety razors, linked, are less good than I'd like in the perfect world.

It might be my whiskers (old whiskers, tough whiskers, whatever) or my weird beard map (what map?) or my technique. I'm not saying I don't get a very good shave with my best safety razors; my shaves with lots of safety razors are truly quite good, but not perfect. Not BBS everywhere particularly my neck, but still they're good enough, satisfying, and all that, if not perfect.

I seriously doubt my safety razor technique or understanding is likely to improve much. I'm a good shaver with the various safety razors and have used a bunch of them (DE, AC, injectors) to the point where I claim reasonable expertise with the safety razor.

The SR is another animal...

My SR shaves so far are, at best, two or three notches down on the perfect shave scale.

All that proves is I'm a SR beginner. Early beginner. I'm okay with that. No blood is always good. Practice makes perfect and all that...

Happy shaves,

Jim

 

[Twelvefret]

Wish I could help.

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

Wish I could help.

You have and are, sir. Thank you.

 

[Twelvefret]

You have and are, sir. Thank you.

So, I already know your prep is better than mine. Your experience is more broad I would think. This makes me think the problem is the razor.

I am going to tell you what I do when I hone my razors:

1. Put non adhesive 8 1/2" x12" 30 micron lapping film on a wet 12" square flat marble floor tile.
2. Take a credit card and squeegee the water from underneath the film.
3. Wet the top of the lapping film
4. Push the razor edge first forward, bring it back without lifting. Repeat 40-50 times
5. Turn the blade over and do the same on the other side the same number of times
6. Repeat this process with every piece of lapping films 30, 12, 9, 3, 1, .3, .5

Strop with linen and leather, balsa, Cr O2 or whatever you decide.

Notes and suggestions:
1. Go slow, pay attention, and make sure you don't ride up on the shoulder as you move through the laps.
2. Go through one set of laps back and forth before stopping so you don't loose count.

If I get some stones, I will follow the same path. ​

About my technique:
1. Make one pass WTG and don't try to get a clean shave
2. Use the second pass WTG to further reduce and begin to do some focus on missed spots
3. Do another pass WTG
4. Do a slow but intentional ATG on the neck
5. Use your little jewel Schick E Type around areas you missed/trouble spots, set the side burn edges, and around the nose.
6. Over time you will notice you need the Schick less, but there is no reason not to use it. JR told me today he uses some archaic thing be found around his nose.

Hope this helps.

 

[Dzaw]

@Twelvefret - don’t forget the newness factor in the wielding of the razor. His razors could well be perfectly shaving edges, but he hasn’t had any real epiphany moments using them yet.

I only bring this up because of how recently this happened for me - prior to my 31st shave, four or five cuts / weepers was to be expected, and red, swollen skin was the norm for a couple of hours after each shave. This was true of my razors, which were honed when I bought them, those same razors after I honed them, and two razors I borrowed from @steveclarkus.

Then, I had the breakthrough. Since then, every shave has been irritation free, with much MUCH less blood (toe nicks still get my ears sometimes) and all around better.

The same edge that was reddening my skin and tearing up my face lead our mutual friend @steveclarkus to declare he was jealous of the edge I had honed onto the razors he was checking out for me (and you k ow how well he can hone!). Now, those same razors, with no re honing are shaving me with almost no face feel, all because of the breakthrough in technique.

It is entirely plausible Jim has some good edges for shaving, and only needs to relax and shave for a while to get used to using them.

 

[Twelvefret]

@Twelvefret - don’t forget the newness factor in the wielding of the razor. His razors could well be perfectly shaving edges, but he hasn’t had any real epiphany moments using them yet.

I only bring this up because of how recently this happened for me - prior to my 31st shave, four or five cuts / weepers was to be expected, and red, swollen skin was the norm for a couple of hours after each shave. This was true of my razors, which were honed when I bought them, those same razors after I honed them, and two razors I borrowed from @steveclarkus.

Then, I had the breakthrough. Since then, every shave has been irritation free, with much MUCH less blood (toe nicks still get my ears sometimes) and all around better.

The same edge that was reddening my skin and tearing up my face lead our mutual friend @steveclarkus to declare he was jealous of the edge I had honed onto the razors he was checking out for me (and you k ow how well he can hone!). Now, those same razors, with no re honing are shaving me with almost no face feel, all because of the breakthrough in technique.

It is entirely plausible Jim has some good edges for shaving, and only needs to relax and shave for a while to get used to using them.

Brother man, thank you for bringing some excellent points/considerations, with your experiences, into our conversation. Maybe this will encourage our friend, Jim. I want to see him be successful because I think it is important to him.

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

So, I already know your prep is better than mine. Your experience is more broad I would think. This makes me think the problem is the razor.

I am going to tell you what I do when I hone my razors:

1. Put non adhesive 8 1/2" x12" 30 micron lapping film on a wet 12" square flat marble floor tile.
2. Take a credit card and squeegee the water from underneath the film.
3. Wet the top of the lapping film
4. Push the razor edge first forward, bring it back without lifting. Repeat 40-50 times
5. Turn the blade over and do the same on the other side the same number of times
6. Repeat this process with every piece of lapping films 30, 12, 9, 3, 1, .3, .5

Strop with linen and leather, balsa, Cr O2 or whatever you decide.

Notes and suggestions:
1. Go slow, pay attention, and make sure you don't ride up on the shoulder as you move through the laps.
2. Go through one set of laps back and forth before stopping so you don't loose count.

If I get some stones, I will follow the same path. ​

About my technique:
1. Make one pass WTG and don't try to get a clean shave
2. Use the second pass WTG to further reduce and begin to do some focus on missed spots
3. Do another pass WTG
4. Do a slow but intentional ATG on the neck
5. Use your little jewel Schick E Type around areas you missed/trouble spots, set the side burn edges, and around the nose.
6. Over time you will notice you need the Schick less, but there is no reason not to use it. JR told me today he uses some archaic thing be found around his nose.

Hope this helps.

@Twelvefret - don’t forget the newness factor in the wielding of the razor. His razors could well be perfectly shaving edges, but he hasn’t had any real epiphany moments using them yet.

I only bring this up because of how recently this happened for me - prior to my 31st shave, four or five cuts / weepers was to be expected, and red, swollen skin was the norm for a couple of hours after each shave. This was true of my razors, which were honed when I bought them, those same razors after I honed them, and two razors I borrowed from @steveclarkus.

Then, I had the breakthrough. Since then, every shave has been irritation free, with much MUCH less blood (toe nicks still get my ears sometimes) and all around better.

The same edge that was reddening my skin and tearing up my face lead our mutual friend @steveclarkus to declare he was jealous of the edge I had honed onto the razors he was checking out for me (and you k ow how well he can hone!). Now, those same razors, with no re honing are shaving me with almost no face feel, all because of the breakthrough in technique.

It is entirely plausible Jim has some good edges for shaving, and only needs to relax and shave for a while to get used to using them.

Brother man, thank you for bringing some excellent points/considerations, with your experiences, into our conversation. Maybe this will encourage our friend, Jim. I want to see him be successful because I think it is important to him.

You gentlemen are helpful and encouraging and much appreciated.

Next time I plan to shave with a SR - which should be either Friday or Saturday - I will have two additional shave-ready razors. Both should arrive tomorrow if the tracking is correct. Both are from an eBay vendor I've been told by several people provides shave-ready razors; I hope what I've been told is correct. I am of the opinion that my technique and such can and will improve as I continue on. Of course that is just my opinion and no form of certainty or anything like that is involved.

A couple more shave-ready razors will help.

I'm hoping to have a breakthrough, but all I can do is continue on and do the best I can.

Thanks you so much,

Jim

 

[Twelvefret]

Yes, if it’s the vendor I think you’re referring to, the razors will only require being stropped before use. Maybe not required, but I did.