Morning gents ... looking for some old "FBI" or "Chicago loads

[JCinPA]

And just ordered 750 Hornady 148 lead HBWC for practice! I'm so darn excited!

Except the FedEx tracking of my gun package indicates it seems to have disappeared.

 

[BigFoot]

Huh? I just now put a box of 158 gr. LSWCHP +P in my cart on Buffalo Bore site, then deleted it. You sure you had it right? If I didn't already have enough of them I'd have ordered another box.

By the way...I just snapped off a shot at a sounder of wild hogs in my front yard about 20 yards away from my front porch with my .44 Special.

Don't think I hit one as they scattered as soon as the light hit them. They've been tearing up the yard.

Those Hornady ones do look like they are LSWC-HP.

Hornady Bullets 38 Caliber .358 158Gr Lead SWC HP 300CT

Diameter: .358
Bullet Weight In GRAINS: 158
Bullet Style: Lead-Semi Wadcutter HP
Bullets Per Box: 300
Boxes Per Case: 5
Jacketed: N

Manufacturer: Hornady

Model No: 10428

Any recent Bigfoot sightings in them Piney Woods?

 

[simon1]

Any recent Bigfoot sightings in them Piney Woods?

There's one that's seen on the way to town. Next time I'll try to get a picture.

 

[JCinPA]

Finally figured out a load. I found some Winchester 231 in my supplies, and it's a terrific pistol powder, tried and true, may as well use it. Hornady 7th edition shows 4.4 gr as max for normal pressure load for 158 gr LSWCHP, at 850 fps (from 4" barrel, I'm assuming), COL 1.455"

Speer manual shows 4.7 as max for +P at 935 fps, same COL. I think I'll load up a batch at 4.6 and fire it over the chrony. I'm expecting about 917-ish, which I'd be happy with. I'll probably just load that up if it shoots well and doesn't chrony slower than 900 fps. If it does, I'll load up the 4.7 grains. Speer didn't become an ammunition supplier to LE agency juggernaut by publishing unsafe load data. And, well, it's a Ruger. I round out my trio of revolvers with an early 1980's manufactured Taurus Model 85CH in SS which is +P rated, it should handle these, as well, I'd think. But I still have some Speer 135 gr +P short barrel revolver fodder for that.

Son and I will be loading this up and shooting it together with my Dad's (RIP) circa 1982 Ruger Security Six. This thread will be dormant for a bit, but I'll add a range report eventually.

Cases: mixed headstamp, once-fired, nickel-plated .38 S&W special
Primers: CCI 500 small pistol
Powder: 4.6-4.7 gr Winchester 231 (now made by Hodgdon)
Bullet: Hornady 38 Cal .358" 158 gr SWC HP - Item #10428
C.O.L: 1.455"

For practice, I ordered some wadcutters
Cases: mixed headstamp, once-fired, nickel-plated .38 S&W special
Primers: CCI 500 small pistol
Powder: 3.0 gr Titegroup (800 fps)
Bullet: Hornady 38 Cal .358" 148 gr HBWC - Item #10208
C.O.L: 1.180"


[disclaimer] When reloading, use published reloading manual data. Start low and work up. If parts start flying off your gun, the folks in the shooting lanes adjacent to you start running away, your ears ring, and your wrist hurts, back off a bit. You probably should not partake in this dangerous activity, to begin with. Yeah, just don't reload, OK? It's not a good idea. I'm sorry I posted this. [/disclaimer]

 

[JCinPA]

Well, I will be like a kid waiting for Christmas for another week, it seems. My local dealer up and closed on me this year. I was there a couple months ago, the website is still up, and their phone answering machine is still on. Had it sent to them, it went back to the selling dealer, they are "Closed Until Further Notice". Gonna have it sent to Cabela's in Hamburg, PA and use the last of my Cabela's points on some ammo or powder.

And, after doing some research, apparently, I'm an Old Crusty Dude, Out of Touch with the Times. The old FBI (Chicago, Dallas) load was thought to be good ... before the FBI started doing testing in ballistic gel and through clothing, glass, and other barriers. It penetrates just fine, and I would not want to be shot with it, but apparently, it cuts nice, neat holes in cloth and the HP clogs and it goes all the way as .357 cal. Won't expand hardly at all.

So, I have a bunch of practice bullets to play with, I guess, I won't load them to +P. And I didn't need the wadcutters either, I found several boxes of Buffalo Bore 148 gr wadcutters in the reloading area I must have gotten when I inherited my parents' Security Six.

I also have probably ten boxes of Remington HTP 357 Magnum Ammo 125 Grain Semi Jacketed Hollow Point down there, which I will only shoot in the Security Six. I really need to get a laptop down there and catalog all my components and rounds into Excel one of these days, I have no idea what I have down there.

And this discovery about the FBI load being the suck for expansion led me down a ballistics nerd afternoon on the Interwebz today, and I discovered this little gem ...

38 Special Ammo - 20 Rounds of 130 Grain Jacketed Hollow-Point (JHP) by Federal

Cheap Federal 38 Special ammo for sale at AmmoToGo.com - 20 round packs of Jacketed Hollow-Point (JHP) 130 Grain ammunition in-stock now.

www.ammunitiontogo.com

As close to a "magic round" as I've ever seen, and a brilliant design. seating the bullet deep into the case eliminates powder shifting and the SD on velocity is ridiculously low. That big gaping mouth of a hollow point consistently expands more and more reliably than any of its competitors (0.70-0.73" in the tests I've seen) and it retains virtually 100% of its weight due to the jacket and core being bonded.

According to Lucky Gunner, I should get 12-13" of penetration out of my old Taurus 85CH snub (circa 1980's) and about 824 fps
and about 13" of penetration out of the new (to me) 3" SP101, and 14" out of the Security Six, although I'll likely actually shoot .357 mag with that.

.38 Special and .357 Magnum Self-Defense Ammo Ballistics Test - LuckyGunner.com Labs

We conducted ballistics gelatin tests for 38 self-defense revolver loads in 38 Special and 357 Magnum. Here are the full results along with photos and video

www.luckygunner.com

Anyway, that new-fangled Federal micro 130 gr stuff puts even the Speer 135 gr short barrel +P to shame (I am down to 30 rounds of that anyway). So I'm gonna start hunting for this wonder round. Anybody in east-central PA who wants to go to Cabela's and browse the store, the gun library, and have some venison sausage (if the cafeteria is back open) speak up. I'll be there next Saturday, God willing.

 

[bberg100]

We've been getting a LOT of Hornady 158g XTP +P in stock. No other revolver rounds to be had. None of my distributors can get any, these come direct from Hornady and my corporate buyer snags them when he can. He has buried us in Hornady and Sierra 9mm self defense round though...

 

[Ad Astra]

Well, I will be like a kid waiting for Christmas for another week, it seems. My local dealer up and closed on me this year. I was there a couple months ago, the website is still up, and their phone answering machine is still on. Had it sent to them, it went back to the selling dealer, they are "Closed Until Further Notice". Gonna have it sent to Cabela's in Hamburg, PA and use the last of my Cabela's points on some ammo or powder.

And, after doing some research, apparently, I'm an Old Crusty Dude, Out of Touch with the Times. The old FBI (Chicago, Dallas) load was thought to be good ... before the FBI started doing testing in ballistic gel and through clothing, glass, and other barriers. It penetrates just fine, and I would not want to be shot with it, but apparently, it cuts nice, neat holes in cloth and the HP clogs and it goes all the way as .357 cal. Won't expand hardly at all.

So, I have a bunch of practice bullets to play with, I guess, I won't load them to +P. And I didn't need the wadcutters either, I found several boxes of Buffalo Bore 148 gr wadcutters in the reloading area I must have gotten when I inherited my parents' Security Six.

I also have probably ten boxes of Remington HTP 357 Magnum Ammo 125 Grain Semi Jacketed Hollow Point down there, which I will only shoot in the Security Six. I really need to get a laptop down there and catalog all my components and rounds into Excel one of these days, I have no idea what I have down there.

And this discovery about the FBI load being the suck for expansion led me down a ballistics nerd afternoon on the Interwebz today, and I discovered this little gem ...

38 Special Ammo - 20 Rounds of 130 Grain Jacketed Hollow-Point (JHP) by Federal

Cheap Federal 38 Special ammo for sale at AmmoToGo.com - 20 round packs of Jacketed Hollow-Point (JHP) 130 Grain ammunition in-stock now.

www.ammunitiontogo.com

As close to a "magic round" as I've ever seen, and a brilliant design. seating the bullet deep into the case eliminates powder shifting and the SD on velocity is ridiculously low. That big gaping mouth of a hollow point consistently expands more and more reliably than any of its competitors (0.70-0.73" in the tests I've seen) and it retains virtually 100% of its weight due to the jacket and core being bonded.

According to Lucky Gunner, I should get 12-13" of penetration out of my old Taurus 85CH snub (circa 1980's) and about 824 fps
and about 13" of penetration out of the new (to me) 3" SP101, and 14" out of the Security Six, although I'll likely actually shoot .357 mag with that.

.38 Special and .357 Magnum Self-Defense Ammo Ballistics Test - LuckyGunner.com Labs

We conducted ballistics gelatin tests for 38 self-defense revolver loads in 38 Special and 357 Magnum. Here are the full results along with photos and video

www.luckygunner.com

Anyway, that new-fangled Federal micro 130 gr stuff puts even the Speer 135 gr short barrel +P to shame (I am down to 30 rounds of that anyway). So I'm gonna start hunting for this wonder round. Anybody in east-central PA who wants to go to Cabela's and browse the store, the gun library, and have some venison sausage (if the cafeteria is back open) speak up. I'll be there next Saturday, God willing.

My carry choice too, but I have exactly one box ...

All I need is a hollow base wadcutter mold, though. Could make similar. An old trick that works.


AA

 

[Bhugo]

I love my little 642. +p rounds aren’t too bad with that little bugger. I use the gold dots short barrel 38 +p. Accurate out to ranges it shouldn’t be even with practice rounds!

I’m thinking about a Ruger 357….

 

[OkieStubble]

I love my little 642. +p rounds aren’t too bad with that little bugger. I use the gold dots short barrel 38 +p. Accurate out to ranges it shouldn’t be even with practice rounds!

I’m thinking about a Ruger 357….

Join the SP101 club!

That GD .38+P SB is a great round. They are also sittin in my 3” barreled Ruger right now.

 

[Hohn]

Just a point of clarity-- there's only one "FBI load" for 38spl. The 158gr +P SWCHP. It's not a jacketed hollow point. It's not an FMJ. It's not a semi jacketed HP. It's not a solid copper HP. It's a semi-wadcutter with a hollow point, entirely made of cast lead. It has a performance specification of 950fps from a 4" revolver.

What many don't realize is that the modern gel block performance standard of 12"+ and <18" is based on the performance of this very load in gel blocks.

It goes back to the FBI's initial move to adopt a semi auto chambering after the famous dade county shootout in 1986. Post-event analysis by the FBI said that the agent's being saddled with issue revolvers was a significant contributor to the outcome of the gunfight. The agents couldn't reload quickly, and had to reload more frequently. (not that it would make a big difference against a Platt's Mini14, but still).

In the subsequent testing that would determine the bureau's new handgun and caliber, the performance standard in gel was based on the 38spl load the FBI had used for so long. This is ultimately why the 10mm was downloaded to the 180gr@ 950fps standard because the standard 10mm, while also meeting performance requirements, was deemed to have excessive recoil. So they downloaded it to the "fbi-lite" which was the slowest 10mm that would still equal the performance of the 38spl in terms of reliability of penetration in gel (95% >12" in gel). And as you likely know, the rest is 40SW history.

But the interesting thing about it all is that the FBI wasn't seeking any improvement in ballistic performance. They simply wanted the same reliable penetration of their proven 38spl load but in an autoloading-friendly format.

The FBI only tested 9mm, 10mm, and 45ACP and with commercially available JHPs, the 9mm was inferior-- but not in power. It was inferior in the sense that only about 65% of the time would a round reach >12" in gel. Conversely, the 45acp achieved 12"+ over 90% of the time and the 10mm was 95%, barely edging out the 45acp.

Even though the 10mm advantage was small, it was an advantage, and would in common duty firearms yield a small capacity increase relative to the 45acp.

Now you understand why the FBI several years back ditched the 40sw and went back to 9mm. But the FBI's same testing protocol, the 9mm can now satisfy the high-reliability of 12"+ penetration in gel after traveling through various media (car door, windshield, clothing, etc). Bullet technology now allows the 9mm to meet FBI requirements-- the same requirements from 1986! And again, you get the advantage of a capacity increase.

 

[JCinPA]

Yep. Knew all of that (I was around when the FBI load was still the FBI load). I just didn't know is sucks as an expander. I just got that box of bullets I ordered, and will be loading them up for practice rounds now.

 

[OkieStubble]

Just a point of clarity-- there's only one "FBI load" for 38spl. The 158gr +P SWCHP. It's not a jacketed hollow point. It's not an FMJ. It's not a semi jacketed HP. It's not a solid copper HP. It's a semi-wadcutter with a hollow point, entirely made of cast lead. It has a performance specification of 950fps from a 4" revolver.

What many don't realize is that the modern gel block performance standard of 12"+ and <18" is based on the performance of this very load in gel blocks.

It goes back to the FBI's initial move to adopt a semi auto chambering after the famous dade county shootout in 1986. Post-event analysis by the FBI said that the agent's being saddled with issue revolvers was a significant contributor to the outcome of the gunfight. The agents couldn't reload quickly, and had to reload more frequently. (not that it would make a big difference against a Platt's Mini14, but still).

In the subsequent testing that would determine the bureau's new handgun and caliber, the performance standard in gel was based on the 38spl load the FBI had used for so long. This is ultimately why the 10mm was downloaded to the 180gr@ 950fps standard because the standard 10mm, while also meeting performance requirements, was deemed to have excessive recoil. So they downloaded it to the "fbi-lite" which was the slowest 10mm that would still equal the performance of the 38spl in terms of reliability of penetration in gel (95% >12" in gel). And as you likely know, the rest is 40SW history.

But the interesting thing about it all is that the FBI wasn't seeking any improvement in ballistic performance. They simply wanted the same reliable penetration of their proven 38spl load but in an autoloading-friendly format.

The FBI only tested 9mm, 10mm, and 45ACP and with commercially available JHPs, the 9mm was inferior-- but not in power. It was inferior in the sense that only about 65% of the time would a round reach >12" in gel. Conversely, the 45acp achieved 12"+ over 90% of the time and the 10mm was 95%, barely edging out the 45acp.

Even though the 10mm advantage was small, it was an advantage, and would in common duty firearms yield a small capacity increase relative to the 45acp.

Now you understand why the FBI several years back ditched the 40sw and went back to 9mm. But the FBI's same testing protocol, the 9mm can now satisfy the high-reliability of 12"+ penetration in gel after traveling through various media (car door, windshield, clothing, etc). Bullet technology now allows the 9mm to meet FBI requirements-- the same requirements from 1986! And again, you get the advantage of a capacity increase.

Good post.

 

[simon1]

Any recent Bigfoot sightings in them Piney Woods?

There's one that's seen on the way to town. Next time I'll try to get a picture.

You thought I was kiddin', didn't ya?

 

[BigFoot]

You thought I was kiddin', didn't ya?

View attachment 1405722

That is awesome! Where exactly is that, it would be worth a road trip to see that.

 

[simon1]

It's between Paris and Novice, east side of the road.