So I was thinking about Kieth V johnson and how he did that Honing in the 1800s video. I took inspiration from it but I decided since I didnt have a washita I would try taking my GD66 to a Hard ark from dans to an ILR. In practice I ended up killing the edge on my 8k Shapton and bringing it back on it because Bringing an edge back on an arkansas stone takes forever. I took it from the 8k to the hard ark and from the hard ark to the ILR following Dr. Matt357's method of using this stone. I generally like the Black ark as a finisher over an ILR but I wanted to see what this combo would be like. So far its shaving arm hair, Belly hair, and other areas dry. Im hoping that in the morning when I shave It gets close enough for what I like. Would you guys try a budget combo like this? If you have what are your thoughts? Im curious to hear about it.
Minimal stone honing. Would this combo work?
- Thread starter MajorMinceMeat
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a Ark will get the job done, eventually.. If one stone works for you thats all that matters. CBN or diamond wont hurt...
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I can ususally get a full 4 ark Progression (soft, hard, true hard, Black) done in about 20-30 minutes.
The idea is that I can get from the hard ark which is roughly equal to the 8k for me in terms of shaving edge to the ILR to finish with no other stones in between. (by no means am I saying It is the same grit rating. there is no way to truely rate the grit of a natural stone A black ark Is still roughly 1500 grit in scratch pattern even though it is a finishing stone.) It seems to work for now. We will see today how it goes down.
For doing what? Restoring eBay razors? No. Fast as my 8k is, I wouldn't want to remove pitting, correct bevels, or fix frowns on an 8k. Heck I'll even go under my 600 on occasion for really bad razors.
Touching up a razor? You just need a finisher.
Most people trying to build a set for anything in between will eventually realize that everything but their finisher is never being used or be wishing they had something aggressive to fix a problem razor on.
Touching up a razor? You just need a finisher.
Most people trying to build a set for anything in between will eventually realize that everything but their finisher is never being used or be wishing they had something aggressive to fix a problem razor on.
In keeping with the spirit of the progression, I think I would prefer two-stone progression that would involve either a Washita no. 1 or a lily white prior to moving to a translucent, "true hard," or black hard Arkansas.
I guess you're referring to this video:
Actually, I was in the same boat and reached out to @drmatt357 and his recommendation was to get the 4K/8K Norton combo and the 12K Naniwa, given I am a total beginner and have never honed a thing in my life.
So, it all boils down to WHAT your are planning to do and how frequently.
Me, I bought an expensive, custom made razor (Koraat), that came shave ready. This as well has been a recommendation from Dr. Matt and I love the razor.
How and ever, I have opted for a different stone combo - the one that the artisan who makes these razors uses himself and it's a 3K/10K Naniwa combo wet-stone. For me this eliminated the need for the second stone, as with 3K side I can (re)set the bevel and the difference between the 10K and 12K is non existent, many pros here actually preferring the 10K edge off of this Naniwa.
As a "finisher" my foreseeable path will be several cheap canvas and leather strops loaded with CrOx and/or diamond paste.
Hope it helps
Actually, I was in the same boat and reached out to @drmatt357 and his recommendation was to get the 4K/8K Norton combo and the 12K Naniwa, given I am a total beginner and have never honed a thing in my life.
So, it all boils down to WHAT your are planning to do and how frequently.
Me, I bought an expensive, custom made razor (Koraat), that came shave ready. This as well has been a recommendation from Dr. Matt and I love the razor.
How and ever, I have opted for a different stone combo - the one that the artisan who makes these razors uses himself and it's a 3K/10K Naniwa combo wet-stone. For me this eliminated the need for the second stone, as with 3K side I can (re)set the bevel and the difference between the 10K and 12K is non existent, many pros here actually preferring the 10K edge off of this Naniwa.
As a "finisher" my foreseeable path will be several cheap canvas and leather strops loaded with CrOx and/or diamond paste.
Hope it helps
Good call. I'm a bit surprised Matt recommended the 4/8 to you.
This was my first set of stones except I added a 220/1k Norton combo stone for bevel setting and use on really nasty restorations. You can probably set a bevel on a Norton 4k, but I wouldn't want to spend the time it would take. The three-stone set did just fine, and when I added the pasted balsa progression it went over the top.
I've now added my first coticule. But that's only for fun, not because I needed it.
I remember there'd been a couple posts about all-natural progs and all ark progs lately, and now this about minimal stones.
Figured I'd do a video demo of a "non-ideal" or minimal and all-nat progression.
This is with a 10x2" Hard Washita
a 12x3" Tam O
and a 12x3" Trans Ark.
Took just shy of 30mins start to finish on a full hollow eBay special (rusted, pitted and chipped), and that's sacrificing looks a lot to some heavy pressure on the early chip removal.
On my typical 600/1200/8000 DMT + Finisher combo, I'd have taken 5-6 minutes and left a much cleaner bevel.
And this Washita is in all likelyhood quite a bit faster than an 8k Shapton.
Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if I could beat this time with a decent sized coticule and dilucot... just saying. (I actually think I did that test a decade ago and the time certainly wasn't any worse). If you're really willing to sacrifice efficiency to go minimalist... why not just go all the way to single-stone like we used to?
And admittedly, a Soft/Coarse washita would definitely speed this up a good bit (shave 5+ minutes off time is my guess), but it's not going to totally change things, we're still talking several times as much work as with a slightly more efficiently laid out set up.
Figured I'd do a video demo of a "non-ideal" or minimal and all-nat progression.
This is with a 10x2" Hard Washita
a 12x3" Tam O
and a 12x3" Trans Ark.
Took just shy of 30mins start to finish on a full hollow eBay special (rusted, pitted and chipped), and that's sacrificing looks a lot to some heavy pressure on the early chip removal.
On my typical 600/1200/8000 DMT + Finisher combo, I'd have taken 5-6 minutes and left a much cleaner bevel.
And this Washita is in all likelyhood quite a bit faster than an 8k Shapton.
Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if I could beat this time with a decent sized coticule and dilucot... just saying. (I actually think I did that test a decade ago and the time certainly wasn't any worse). If you're really willing to sacrifice efficiency to go minimalist... why not just go all the way to single-stone like we used to?
And admittedly, a Soft/Coarse washita would definitely speed this up a good bit (shave 5+ minutes off time is my guess), but it's not going to totally change things, we're still talking several times as much work as with a slightly more efficiently laid out set up.
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The stone and how it is prept is key here. With Arks you could do a 2,3,and four stone progession. I would recommend if you can a fine/hard lily white or #1 after synthetic 1k and finish with a Translucent or SB. Again surface prep is key to get the best performance.
If you do knives then a four stone natural progression is not out of line if you want to speed thing up and not want to go synthetic.
Also with a good coti or even better a bass a## jnat you can do a one hone stone in under 5 mins. Yes it can be done! If you can't do it with your jnats you just don't have a very good one but they are out there. Lol!
Just to reiderate to the OP, surface prep each stone differently. A good start would be for me (220,400,600,1000) You could leave ot the true hard or SB and use just three but if you have the four then I would go with those numbers to start to play with. Hope this helps!
If you do knives then a four stone natural progression is not out of line if you want to speed thing up and not want to go synthetic.
Also with a good coti or even better a bass a## jnat you can do a one hone stone in under 5 mins. Yes it can be done! If you can't do it with your jnats you just don't have a very good one but they are out there. Lol!
Just to reiderate to the OP, surface prep each stone differently. A good start would be for me (220,400,600,1000) You could leave ot the true hard or SB and use just three but if you have the four then I would go with those numbers to start to play with. Hope this helps!
Toro, 5 min one stone Jnat with nagura or just DMT/Tomo slurry? Including beveling?
I'm one of those guys who think that every straight razor shaver needs a good bevel setter. Got 1 or 2 razors you just want to maintain? A finisher is enough. But what if you drop and chip the razor? Or just got a razor you just can't seem to get a decent edge on? Dropping back to a good bevel setter usually takes care of that. They are much cheaper than synthetic finishing stones, the finer you go the more expensive. Don't get much use of your bevel setter? That's fine too, you can get more use out of it on kitchen knives aswell, just keep it flat as any other stone.
I will preface this with I am new to SR honing. With that being said, I’ve been honing knives free hand to shaving arm hair sharpness for about 25 years. Two different schools of training, but with very similar concepts with the art of progression. If anything, the “feel” of knife honing is much more difficult to master unless you use a guide for the bevel (which I never have).
All that said, I did my first ground up restoration today using a 3 stone ark progression. From would barely scrape skin cells off to tree topping arm hair. Stone used were Soft, hard, then SB. I took a few small but obvious nicks out with a soft ark but it was slow. Then on to hard, then to the SB. If I were in the business of restoring eBay razors this would not be my setup as it’s quite slow. Honestly if that were my business, I probably would favor synthetics. For the guy trying to get into bevel set to finish honing for under 100 bucks... a 3 stone ark set as I’ve listed is the cats meow IMO.
All that said, I did my first ground up restoration today using a 3 stone ark progression. From would barely scrape skin cells off to tree topping arm hair. Stone used were Soft, hard, then SB. I took a few small but obvious nicks out with a soft ark but it was slow. Then on to hard, then to the SB. If I were in the business of restoring eBay razors this would not be my setup as it’s quite slow. Honestly if that were my business, I probably would favor synthetics. For the guy trying to get into bevel set to finish honing for under 100 bucks... a 3 stone ark set as I’ve listed is the cats meow IMO.
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Slice, I use a matched tomo or DN(atoma 1200). Mainly the matched tomo now as it gives the best of both worlds and saves my base stone a little.
Not every jnat will do it but are definately out there. I purchased more than dozen different nagura to test out and none worked as good as the matched one. Mikawa included, I use mainly for knives now to enhance the kazumi effect because they are slow in my opinion compared to a very good tomo.
Oh and not including bevel set, to me bevel set can be a little misleading sometimes because it depends on the condition of the razor and grind. So I go off a good soligen razor as my base. Not to hard, not to soft to set sort of a standard. A sweedish can take 10 minutes depending on the grind and the fact I baby harder steels in order to avoid micro chipping, makes for a longer session.
Not every jnat will do it but are definately out there. I purchased more than dozen different nagura to test out and none worked as good as the matched one. Mikawa included, I use mainly for knives now to enhance the kazumi effect because they are slow in my opinion compared to a very good tomo.
Oh and not including bevel set, to me bevel set can be a little misleading sometimes because it depends on the condition of the razor and grind. So I go off a good soligen razor as my base. Not to hard, not to soft to set sort of a standard. A sweedish can take 10 minutes depending on the grind and the fact I baby harder steels in order to avoid micro chipping, makes for a longer session.
True. Yeah once bevel is set, a lot... maybe most good quality finishers can take it and finish it in a surprisingly short amount of time. I tend to prefer a middle hone because it makes the feedback more reliable for me and it's what I'm used to, but there's not much I use on a regular basis that can't finish after I set my bevel. Maybe my yellow lake? Haven't tried. Arks can take a bit of work, but it's doable. Thuri's and PDSO manage fine. Apache I would suspect can too, given its speed. As you mentioned; a good Jnat, definitely. Coticules, naturally. Maybe hybrid coticule would struggle... I'd have to try.
Basically, If I were given the choice between going to a finishing stone after 1k or trying to bevel on an 8k, I'd take the first option every time.
I mean, coming off the DMT 1200 I bevel on, you're essentially cleaning up a 9 micron edge with roughly 1 micron particles on a typical finisher. It's not instant, but it's definitely possible.
Finisher>
Beveler>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
intermediate hones
in importance.
Wasted a lot of time trying a bunch of different 3k-8k hones and similar range naturals when I was starting out with razors before realizing that.
Basically, If I were given the choice between going to a finishing stone after 1k or trying to bevel on an 8k, I'd take the first option every time.
I mean, coming off the DMT 1200 I bevel on, you're essentially cleaning up a 9 micron edge with roughly 1 micron particles on a typical finisher. It's not instant, but it's definitely possible.
Finisher>
Beveler>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
intermediate hones
in importance.
Wasted a lot of time trying a bunch of different 3k-8k hones and similar range naturals when I was starting out with razors before realizing that.
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Steve56
Ask me about shaving naked!
Agree with @Toro Blanco - here’s my example. I didn’t time it so I’m not sure about 5 minutes but likely yes. And it’s good to reiterate that not every jnat will do 1 stone honing. This stone is likely a Nakayama, blazing fast but also very fine - it’s what you look for.
I glassed the Gold Dollar 208, it would not cut paper, or me, so technically the bevel is not set though it is otherwise well formed, it is not in ‘factory‘ shape.
I set the bevel with medium diamond plate slurry. The stone cuts very quickly on its own slurry, and the bevel set quickly. For a ’midgrit’ step, I again used diamond plate slurry but much thinner, and diluted it as I went. The razor was finished with misty (watery) tomo slurry and stropped. It shaved as as well as anything else.
I glassed the Gold Dollar 208, it would not cut paper, or me, so technically the bevel is not set though it is otherwise well formed, it is not in ‘factory‘ shape.
I set the bevel with medium diamond plate slurry. The stone cuts very quickly on its own slurry, and the bevel set quickly. For a ’midgrit’ step, I again used diamond plate slurry but much thinner, and diluted it as I went. The razor was finished with misty (watery) tomo slurry and stropped. It shaved as as well as anything else.
Steve56
Ask me about shaving naked!
If you want a minimal synthetic progression, the following 2 stones will do it. The bevel setter is a 2k Shapton Glass HR, and it works because the Shapton Glass HR (High Rockwell) series is blazing fast, you can use a stone finer than 1 or 1.5k to set bevels, and they cut hard, tough steel well because it’s what they were designed to do. The scratch pattern is uniform and shallow.
Shapton Glass Stones were designed to go in 3x increments, and the next stone is a 6k Shapton Glass HC (High Carbon). Takeshi actually uses the 6k HC to finish, and you can too but I prefer to add a jnat or coti finisher. The HC series polishes more than the HR, and the 6k will leave a near mirror finish. Haven’t tried the 6k HC to Thuri yet, maybe something to do soon.
Anyway, a 2-stone progression that shaves and will get you to just about any finisher you like.
Shapton Glass Stones were designed to go in 3x increments, and the next stone is a 6k Shapton Glass HC (High Carbon). Takeshi actually uses the 6k HC to finish, and you can too but I prefer to add a jnat or coti finisher. The HC series polishes more than the HR, and the 6k will leave a near mirror finish. Haven’t tried the 6k HC to Thuri yet, maybe something to do soon.
Anyway, a 2-stone progression that shaves and will get you to just about any finisher you like.
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- #19
This was working on something I already had and had set the bevel on. I just killed the edge and brought it back on the 8k to ensure that my previous edge was gone. The idea is to only maintain the edge on a dans hard and Imperia la roccia. so far it works well. I got a razor from my collection and tried this progression minus the 8k. this razor i had always had issues with. It would shave but the biggest issue was it was not getting as close on certain parts of my face. the Hard ark and the ILR worked like a charm. It was treetopping leg hair like nobodies buisness. That one is going to be shaved with today when i get off work.
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- #20
so, my aim was not really speed but just gettting shave ready off of just two stones. I honestly have no idea what everyone talks about with arks being slow. I can go from a soft ark to a hard to a true hard to a black in ~20/25 minutes. The two stone Hard ark/ILR progression takes a little less than 10 minutes and once on the ilr it goes lightning fast. I have a good shaving edge with only those two.
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