What's new

Midrange honing w jnat

Hey all,

So currently have a synth progression of:
Chosera 1k & 3k, hayabusa 4K & Fuji 8k.
After this I’ll move onto a jnat for finishing.
I get really nice edges but running through 4 synth stones can be a bit time consuming, and just trying to cut this down for when I don’t have much time on my hands.

I’m thinking that I’d like to add a jnat for that midrange work, something that I can take the razor to straight after a bevel set.

My theory is that my current jnats that are hard and very fine, would take a very long time to clean up the 1k scratch pattern. Even just creating enough slurry to make it thick would be hard.

Love to hear some of your experiences on this. Would a softer and less fine jnat be the best to find? Or would going from the bevel through a asano nagura progression on my current finishing stones be suitable?

Cheers
 
I usually switch to JNats as soon as I can, because I find them much more interesting, and much more fun to sharpen on. What they are not is faster.

I try never to hone in a hurry, but when I do want more speed, I use a Shapton Glass sequence, 1K (bevel setter) to 3K to 10K to finisher (or prefinisher). The SG line is fast, leaves light scratches as long as you don't use heavy pressure, and is designed to be used in 3X jumps.
 
I find them really interesting also and love using them. Honestly wouldn’t look at the glass series, I know they are excellent but again are synths and only cut one stone out of my current progression. Arguably finding one stone to bridge the gap between 1k to finisher will be quicker than having to wet, lap and work then rinse etc the synth progression.

Ideally looking for experiences in going 1k -> jnat mid range -> finisher.

cheers
 
In my opinion this type of jnat can be expensive, and difficult to find.
A good suite can fit your description.

I have been looking for the same type of stone. I have a shiro suita and two midrange softer stones.
None of them can compete with a good coticule if I use them with razors.
They are mostly used for knifes.
A good finisher should also be able to do this with diamond plate slurry, followed by a tomo.

Where they can really shine is for touch up honing.
It is less time consuming then going through different naguras.
 
Coming from the knife world, a natsuya, monzen, tsuchima or aizu will all sit between 1k and finishers if you're keen on a jnat. Tsuchima are supposed to be very consistent but not crazy expensive. The others can be pretty variable in terms of price and consistency.

My two cents, probably a load of other options out there.
 
If you got a lot of $ +1 to a nice suita jnat. I recently got an asano nagura set I will try out soon. I am not an expert on them but they are suppose to be able to handle everything after bevel set then a tomo to finish. The nagura set probably won't save time but you will only use 1 base stone.

Coticules make great midrange stones as well.

Also a quick edit - the 8k then jnat is probably enough for most touch ups I would think. Some jnats work well with diamond plate and can do a lot of midrange work like that.
 
Last edited:
There are certainly plenty of lovely, lower finishing jnats out there, any of the names mentioned already is a good bet.

As to whether you want one... what Mr.H says here is a pretty good and pithy evaluation:

I find them much more interesting, and much more fun to sharpen on. What they are not is faster.


In terms of sharpening or honing something Japanese stones are pretty much never going to be the most efficient or best value option. What they are often is the most interesting. They're diverse and variable, pretty, and many do things and work in ways that's a bit different to other types of stone.

Though unfortunately you can't expect a good mid-grit stone to be cheaper than a finisher, in fact they're probably going to be significantly more expensive. The problem is that a stone that'd be good in the middle or prefinishing stages of a razor progression is also likely to be a very good polishing stone, and that's where things can start getting very pricey indeed.

There are some cheaper options though; a softer Aiwaatani perhaps might fit the bill, or some of the stones that get sold as 'Narutaki'. Or for something straight after bevel set (now that I notice what you said in the OP) - Binsui might work, or as CC mentioned Natsuya.
 
These are some alternatives if you a want to use natural stones. None of the options will be faster then a synthetic mid range option. However, they can give you a slightly different edge and honing sensation.

20230107_134750.jpg
 
“I get really nice edges but running through 4 synth stones can be a bit time consuming, and just trying to cut this down for when I don’t have much time on my hands.”

To refresh an edge, you do not need a full 1k progression, max would be dropping to the Fuji then Jnat, unless you had edge damage.

Try eliminating the 3 and 4k, a Chosera 1k to 8k Fuji should be very do-able. Give it a try. Finish well on the Chosera, quick lap, joint the edge, strop and 10-20 light laps to finish and reduce stria height.

Start your 8k with a bit of diamond slurry and finish on a clean stone,(you should have near mirror bevels and very straight edge), finish on Jnat with diamond slurry.

For most Jnats a 1k to Jnat diamond slurry is very do able. Again finish well on the 1k and jump to a diamond slurry Jnat, thin slurry and if needed use your normal Jnat nagura to finish.

But as said you really need to hone a razor as the razor needs to be honed. Or you will just trade multiple mid grit synthetics for multiple Jnats or nagura.

Take a look at Alex Gilmore’s Axe Method of honing on Jnats.
 
Keep in mind, eliminating a step may not actually save you any time.

I do go straight from Shapton 1.5 to Hayabusa, though. I've never bothered to slot something in between them because it does what I want.

I have tried going straight from 1.5 to Fuji 8k ...it *is* doable but not something I would do again unless my Hayabusa disappeared.

What nagura progression are you using now?
 
My personal thoughts as a professional doofus….

The 3K and 4K are a bit redundant. I’m not familiar with the Choseras but I have the hayabusa and Fuji. The 4K and 8K are pretty fast. Depending on how bad the bevel is, the 4K is a good stone to start with.

If you have a good jnat, a good koma nagura may be enough to jump from the 4K. A botan (which I do not yet have) on the other hand should be able to work from a 1K finish.

Personally I really like the koma to tomo progression on a good jnat. For me, honing is about zen, and I just don’t get that zen feeling with synthetic stones. Genesis 2:7 says, “the Lord God formed man from the dust of the ground”. This dust was very fine and fast cutting, and when you hone on a natural stone, you are actually giving your cousin a high-five.
 
In my opinion this type of jnat can be expensive, and difficult to find.
A good suite can fit your description.

I have been looking for the same type of stone. I have a shiro suita and two midrange softer stones.
None of them can compete with a good coticule if I use them with razors.
They are mostly used for knifes.
A good finisher should also be able to do this with diamond plate slurry, followed by a tomo.

Where they can really shine is for touch up honing.
It is less time consuming then going through different naguras.
That raises a good point.

If I were forced into a three stone Bevel Setter -> Natural stone -> Finisher sequence, I'd pick a coticule for the middle stone. They are more fun to use than synthetics, and shockingly fast, relative to how fast it feels as though they are. You might even find yourself bevel setting with it, if geometry corrections are not called for.

Finding just the right JNat to bridge your gap can be a long and costly process of trial and error. I'd probably go with the Tsushima, as it is straightforward to find clean ones, and I gather they are pretty consistent from stone to stone. The perfect suita, just the right grit range, no cracks that you can feel when honing, and fast, would be better, mostly for speed reasons, but the path to discovering it would be expensive and fraught with pitfalls.

But most coticules would do this job really well. It can be hard to find that perfect coticule you can shave off of, but fast advancement through the mid-grit range is a very, very common virtue of coticules.
 
There are several ways I have done it.

One option is an aizu, which also makes a great stone for kitchen knives and is pretty fast. it will take you to about a 5-6k level finish.

Tsushima will also work, but are a bit slower and finer than Aizu.

More often than not, I use a lv4 Nakayama suita which resides next to my recliner. It will take a 1k edge all the way to a coticule type edge suitable for shaving. It doesn't quite reach the really sharp stage that a true finisher will, but its not too far off.

Or you can use about any lv 3.5-4.5 finishing stone with slurry from a 600 grit Atoma.

Whatever you choose, you will need a good amount of slurry initially, so if you already have a good finisher, try to stay in the lv4 range for this type of work.
 
I use a lvl4.5 Nakayama Kiita or my lvl 4 iromono kiita with ye(?) botan or a Botan for mid range stuff. I use the harder one on edges that require pressure. When i build a fairly thick slurry and refresh it regularly I can eat steel of a knife pretty quickly. For a razor I'll use Botan with a thinner slurry but still refresh it as soon as it get a medium dark grey.
 
thanks for the comments guys

I think I’ll try going from 1k -4K and then to jnat for the time being. I can do some experimenting with 1k to 8k or straight to jnat see if I can manage it, maybe with asano nagura progression.

Meanwhile I might speak to a few suppliers I’ve sourced stones from before to see if they have some naturals in stock for that midrange. I’d love to be able to run another natural but I it needs to be able to do the job of those midrange synths to justify a purchase.

Cheers
 
Meanwhile I might speak to a few suppliers I’ve sourced stones from before to see if they have some naturals in stock for that midrange. I’d love to be able to run another natural but I it needs to be able to do the job of those midrange synths to justify a purchase.

Good idea! I will put in a plug to also consider asking Rob at [email protected] about a Coticule for midrange work on razors.
 
“I think I’ll try going from 1k -4K and then to jnat for the time being. I can do some experimenting with 1k to 8k or straight to jnat see if I can manage it, maybe with asano nagura progression.”

Good idea, experiment.

You have quality, aggressive stones that have much more range than most give them credit. As with most things, a lot depends on the quality of the razors you are honing, your technique, experience, and the edge you begin with.

I once removed a small chip, fully set a bevel and finished to shave ready a vintage razor with just a 12k Super Stone. These stone have way more range than you think. Experiment.

Google (12K chip removal).
 
You may want to search for a good hard Suita, I have two that will take a fully set 1K or 3K bevel right up to just shy of a finished edge. One of them will deliver a finished Coti style edge if that's what you like. I often use these stones if I don't want to do a full Nagura progression.
This type of progression for me is not faster but delivers a very nice edge that's only marginally different than a full Nagura progression.
If speed is your goal, I would recommend a Shapton glass progression 1K, 4K, 8K, then on to a good J-Nat finisher - Koma and Tomo. This is the speediest progression that I sometimes use that ends w/ J-Nat finish.
Very fast Suita, when found can set bevels if not much work if needed or you just want to take the time and have an all
J-Nat progression.
These are just some of the ways I have used my stones.
 

Steve56

Ask me about shaving naked!
I find them really interesting also and love using them. Honestly wouldn’t look at the glass series, I know they are excellent but again are synths and only cut one stone out of my current progression. Arguably finding one stone to bridge the gap between 1k to finisher will be quicker than having to wet, lap and work then rinse etc the synth progression.

Ideally looking for experiences in going 1k -> jnat mid range -> finisher.

cheers

1k -> finish on one JNat is entirely possible. All you need is a good
finisher that’s really fast
In my opinion this type of jnat can be expensive, and difficult to find.

Kind of, Alex Gilmore has many videos about going from bevel set to finish on one stone, but yes his stones are not cheap.

Alternatively, you can look for the ’tells’ of a good stone and buy a few off Yahoo Japan, and some of them will be exceptional, if you buy enough. This is also not a cheap route unless you luck out pretty quickly.

When you find one of these, it is a joy. This one will, a nice 60-cut on a fitted stand. 1k, diamond slurry diluted to clear water followed by tomo slurry, et voilá !

EF90F07B-0F6F-42D8-90C1-D202159B899B.jpeg
 
1k -> finish on one JNat is entirely possible. All you need is a good
finisher that’s really fast


Kind of, Alex Gilmore has many videos about going from bevel set to finish on one stone, but yes his stones are not cheap.

Alternatively, you can look for the ’tells’ of a good stone and buy a few off Yahoo Japan, and some of them will be exceptional, if you buy enough. This is also not a cheap route unless you luck out pretty quickly.

When you find one of these, it is a joy. This one will, a nice 60-cut on a fitted stand. 1k, diamond slurry diluted to clear water followed by tomo slurry, et voilá !

View attachment 1585600
I’m going to do a fair whack of experimentation with the jnats I’ve currently got and see if any of them are fast enough to go directly from the 1k.
Any sellers on yahoo J that you can recommend?

Cheers
 
Top Bottom