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Method honing a happy razor - asking advice.

Hello Gents, I have been using the method to hone and maintain my razors for a good while now and get great edges. I have now stumbled into a conundrum

I found a Thomas Turner's Everlasting razor that I bid on and somehow won. The razor has a noticable smile as per the photo. IMG_20211216_120843.jpg
I'd like to hone it to see what a near wedge is like, but I have previously only honed relatively straight razors and have no experience with smiles or near wedges.

Advice from those with experience will be appreciated.
 
I’d recommend sharpie the bevel to see if it makes contact to determine the next step. If flat, then I’d suggest same typical technique, but if it needs a rolling stroke, you’ll have to address it that way.
 
Small circle strokes focusing on each third or so of the blade, especially at the start of each new grit, and rolling x-strokes. Frequent inspection with a loupe to verify that you're hitting every part of the edge.

My first attempts at smiling edges ended up with part of the blade neglected, usually the heel but sometimes the middle third. Magnification will help you fix your technique.
 
As was said. Do a few laps and see where the stone contacts the edge. If it's way off then you will have to see. The smile needs the rolling stroke to get all of it.
 
A better photo would help advise you. It looks to have a slight smile at the heel.

Look at the bevel and edge with magnification to see where it has been making contact with prior honing.

Put one layer of tape on the spine, ink the bevel as said and do one lap to see where the bevel is making contact.

It will take a rolling X stroke to hone, but also as said you can hone the blade in thirds and blend with the X.

You should clean it before honing or you will get all that oxidation on your strop. Cleaning once honed is a good way to cut yourself and almost guaranteed to ruin the honed edge.
 

Slash McCoy

I freehand dog rockets
That is one where you should maybe check the bevel angle. If it is too skinny, you will want to hone with a layer of tape on the spine, maybe all the way through and maybe just the last few laps of the finish. Maybe even a layer of tape all the way through and and possibly an additional layer at the finish. If the bevel angle is at least 15 degrees and the bevel face is not too wide when you set a preliminary bevel without tape, sure, go ahead and hone without tape and use The Method, complete with pasted balsa progression. If you are always honing in hand, a rolling x stroke is easy. Just let the stone, plate, or balsa roll in your hand as the razor x strokes along/across it. That's a very pronounced smile, so you may have to deliberately help the roll a bit.

To get an idea of how much roll is enough, give the razor about 40 x strokes with an upper midrange stone or maybe 3u lapping film. Stop and have a good look at the entire bevel with your loupe. It will tell you a lot. Next, apply sharpie and give it two or three laps, same way. The sharpie will really tell you where you made contact and where you did not, even if those first 40 laps did not, and you will not have fundamentally changed the razor in the process.

One of the biggest, maybe THE biggest mistakes I see guys do when they hone a smiley, especially for the first time, is exaggerating the roll and applying extra wear to nose and heel, or often just nose, and making the smile more pronounced than the razor originally had. Okay, maybe not mistake, depending on what you like, I guess. But when you see horribly abused razors with the nose tapered down to 2/3 the width of the center part, that's what happened, somebody trying so hard to hit the full curve of the toe that they actually overdo it. Well, that, and using a "pigtail stroke". My take on this is less is more. You don't have to get a perfect shaving edge on that last 1/8" of edge. Unless you think you do and that's what you want.

Try the sharpie with just normal natural x strokes and see how much of the blade gets contact in a normal x stroke with the hone held loosely in hand. Add deliberate roll as needed. Just enough, no more. When you think you got it down, go ahead and set your bevel and run your progression.

My recommendation is to not use tape when finishing on the balsa. If you want to, it's your balsa and your razor. Myself, I usually get rid of any razor that I must use tape on. There are plenty of razors that do not require tape to get a good edge, so I don't waste my time using a style of honing that I don't like. I don't hone other people's razors so I can do that if I want.

You don't have to hone a particular way. Not every razor has to have a full blown Method edge. A near wedge should be hone-able without tape if it's not heavily worn, depending on bevel angle. If you see fit to hone without tape on stone or film, by all means, hit the balsa progression for a post finish and give it the full Method treatment. It's only slightly more difficult than a straight or nearly straight edge.
 
Gents, thank you for your replies. I am aware the picture isn't great and must apologise for my photography skill, or lack thereof.

I indend to sand or polish the blade prior to honing. It it not as bad as the photo depicts.

My intent is to set the bevel and move onto the film progression. There will be a sharpie involved in the honing process.

Thanks again for your input.
 
Is the blade as dark as it looks in the photo?

The pivot pin looks rusted, brass and nickel silver does not normally rust, but it is an indicator of Cell Rot off gassing. Those faux ivory scales are Cell Rot candidates.
 
I love them heavy old smiling Sheffields. It's a big plus to me if they have the old scales on them too. They just take a lot more time to hone. Be patient with it, enjoy the process and you will be rewarded for your effort.
 
Is the blade as dark as it looks in the photo?

The pivot pin looks rusted, brass and nickel silver does not normally rust, but it is an indicator of Cell Rot off gassing. Those faux ivory scales are Cell Rot candidates.
The blade is not as dark as it looks in the photo. As far as I can tell they are the original scales and the pivot pins show no sign of rust. It is just a bad photo and I had bad lighting. Must try harder for next time.

The blade has been used by the grandfather of the previous owner and is unpolished. There are water spots on the blade, but no rust.
 
Small circle strokes focusing on each third or so of the blade, especially at the start of each new grit, and rolling x-strokes. Frequent inspection with a loupe to verify that you're hitting every part of the edge.

My first attempts at smiling edges ended up with part of the blade neglected, usually the heel but sometimes the middle third. Magnification will help you fix your technique.

So... I'm the other way round - I find myself neglecting the tip, unless I'm really concentrating on it. Why do you think that is? Just different honing motions? I presume I'm just not lifting / 'rolling' it enough?

Also - I'm pretty sure I know what people mean by a 'rolling x', but can you just explain it for me, to make sure I'm on the same page...?

TY!
 
So... I'm the other way round - I find myself neglecting the tip, unless I'm really concentrating on it. Why do you think that is? Just different honing motions? I presume I'm just not lifting / 'rolling' it enough?

Also - I'm pretty sure I know what people mean by a 'rolling x', but can you just explain it for me, to make sure I'm on the same page...?

TY!
I've also had issues hitting the toe when I was learning (ok, I'm still learning) but on straight blades mostly. I think it probably is because I wasn't keeping torque (pressure if you will) all way to the toe during the stroke.

The rolling x. So if you lay a smiling blade on the hone you'll see that the heel and toe aren't making contact, right? So to allow for that you do your x-stroke starting with the heel on the hone and rocking slightly through the stroke so the middle makes contact and then the toe at the end of the stroke. Probably "rocking x-stroke" would be a better name but there you go.

@H Brad Boonshaft I think posted a video clip somewhere that shows it pretty good, maybe he will post it here. Keith (@Gamma ) has some videos that show how he does it.
 
I've also had issues hitting the toe when I was learning (ok, I'm still learning) but on straight blades mostly. I think it probably is because I wasn't keeping torque (pressure if you will) all way to the toe during the stroke.

The rolling x. So if you lay a smiling blade on the hone you'll see that the heel and toe aren't making contact, right? So to allow for that you do your x-stroke starting with the heel on the hone and rocking slightly through the stroke so the middle makes contact and then the toe at the end of the stroke. Probably "rocking x-stroke" would be a better name but there you go.

@H Brad Boonshaft I think posted a video clip somewhere that shows it pretty good, maybe he will post it here. Keith (@Gamma ) has some videos that show how he does it.

Ah cheers! That's what I had it down as. I do try to do that, but I think I'm being overly cautious because I'm quite new to razors, so will dig out those videos and try to refine my technique.

The other reason I'm probably being unconsciously cautious is that 'smiley' is bad on most kitchen knives, they call it having too much 'belly'. So if you continue trying to sharpen it like that - all the way along the edge - it kinda exacerbates the problem. Whereas on a razor it seems like 'smiley' can be quite a good thing, to a certain extent.
 

Slash McCoy

I freehand dog rockets
So... I'm the other way round - I find myself neglecting the tip, unless I'm really concentrating on it. Why do you think that is? Just different honing motions? I presume I'm just not lifting / 'rolling' it enough?

Also - I'm pretty sure I know what people mean by a 'rolling x', but can you just explain it for me, to make sure I'm on the same page...?

TY!
When honing in hand, as you x stroke, let the hone roll in your hand. At the beginning of the stroke, assuming you are right handed, the hone is tipped down slightly to your left, and the right third or so is making contact with the heel area of the razor. As the razor is drawn across to your right, the hone is gradually tipped toward the right and by the end of the stroke it is tipped far enough to the right that the toe area is in contact. So, the point of contact shifts from heel, through the middle, and finally to the toe in the course of one stroke. At the end of the stroke, flip the razor as usual and tip the hone to the left again, making contact in the heel area, and repeat the roll of the hone as you s xtroke the return stroke. There. One lap, in-hand rolling X. If the hone is held loosely enough in the hand, the weight and pressure of the razor will do this for you, to an extent. It is very natural and intuitive to do it this way. Otherwise you may be tempted to lay the hone on a bench and desperately try to control the razor with two hands and you know where that can lead. Of course I am not saying that bench honing can't work, because obviously it can and does for many honers. But give in-hand rolling x honing a try and I think you will be quite pleased after you get adjusted to it, which will probably only take a dozen laps or so.

Again, exaggerating the roll will eventually exaggerate the smile and wear down the toe. That might or might not be an issue for you. It won't be a real dealbreaker right away. And with a lot of roll, you will be refreshing the honing water more often, if you like to keep a very wet hone.

What most people mean by a rolling X stroke is a regular x stroke, beginning the stroke with the toe end of the razor SLIGHTLY elevated. Instead of the spine laying flat on the hone, the toe end is tipped up enough to ensure that the heel area is in contact. As the razor moves along the hone and across it, the toe end of the razor is allowed to come down. The contact area of the spine and edge shift toward the middle of the blade. The heel begins to lift off the hone just before it slides off the right hand edge of the hone. As the razor continues along the hone, the heel is lifted still more, and the contazt area shifts smoothly to the toe area. At the end of the stroke, flip the blade and begin the return stroke with the heel all the way on the hone again and in contact with the hone, toe slightly raised off the hone again, and repeat the stroke in the return direction, shifting the contact area from heel toward the toe by raising the heel gradually as the razor travels back to the other end of the hone. There. One lap, rolling x stroke, without rolling the hone, the way most or at least many honers do it.

Maybe this little exercise will help you. For the purposes of this little demo, lay the hone on a bench. Pick up a smiley razor. A junker or one in severe need of bevel setting will work fine, as long as it has a pronounced smile. Lay the razor across the hone in the starting position, shoulder against or very near the side face of the hone but not on top of the hone. Place your left index finger on the blade at the nose, i.e. at the toe end, halfway between spine and toe and press down lightly. Now keeping that left hand index finger pressing lightly on the nose of the razor, place your right hand index finger on the heel end of the blade, halfway between spine and edge. Ready? Okay now press down lightly at the heel end and stop pressing on the toe. Look at what you got. The heel is in contact, the toe is raised. Without moving the razor, gradually press down on the toe more and more as you gradually reduce pressure at the heel. In other words, shift the pressure along the razor from heel to toe. Look at what happens to the contact area between razor and hone. It shifts smoothly from the heel end through the middle range and on to the toe. You still have contact at both spine and edge but the contact point of both, shift in unison along the entire length of the blade.The roll begins with the heel down on the hone, and gradually shifts to having the toe down on the hone. This is the roll. Do it a few times. Now grip the razor by the tang as you normally do when honing, and without stroking the razor, duplicate that roll, first with the heel making solid contact, then gradually shifting contact through the mid=range and finally to the toe region, by lifting the tang while still letting the razor remain on the hone. Do it a few times. Flip the razor and do it a few more times, still without stroking the razor along the hone. Got it? Good deal. Now see if you can do this while stroking the razor along the hone, using the usual x pattern. Before it is too deeply ingrained, pick up the hone though, and try it in hand, rolling the hone instead of the razor.
 
Ah cheers! That's what I had it down as. I do try to do that, but I think I'm being overly cautious because I'm quite new to razors, so will dig out those videos and try to refine my technique.

The other reason I'm probably being unconsciously cautious is that 'smiley' is bad on most kitchen knives, they call it having too much 'belly'. So if you continue trying to sharpen it like that - all the way along the edge - it kinda exacerbates the problem. Whereas on a razor it seems like 'smiley' can be quite a good thing, to a certain extent.
Smiley is ok, to a point, of course. You'll see some razors that have been abused to the point of having exaggerated upswept toes.

On the other hand, it appears that most Swedish framebacks were designed to have a slight smile at the toe. I used to think that they had been honed into that shape but I've seen enough pristine, minimally honed examples to convince me that they came that way from the factory, though the degree of smile seems to vary by maker. I have a couple non-framebacks (a Söderén and a Törnblom) that have the same profile too. And neither had any appreciable honewear when I got them.

I like shaving with them because they match my neck hollows perfectly. Also the smiley toe is great for detailed edge work because the rest of the blade is off the face while you're using the tip of the toe.
 
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