What's new

May have made an uneducated choice

I'm thinking 12k Ninawa supper stone or the coticule. I'm leaning more towards the Ninawa because its wider. Any advise on which to go with
?
 

David

B&B’s Champion Corn Shucker
I'm thinking 12k Ninawa supper stone or the coticule. I'm leaning more towards the Ninawa because its wider. Any advise on which to go with
?
If you want a sure thing, go with the naniwa. It will need to be lapped before your first use. Wet/dry sandpaper on glass or anything flat will get it flat for you. Check with a good straight edge to make sure it’s flat and you’re good to go.
 

Slash McCoy

I freehand dog rockets
I'm thinking 12k Ninawa supper stone or the coticule. I'm leaning more towards the Ninawa because its wider. Any advise on which to go with
?

Coticules are favored by some users because they give you a very mild edge. They are also a little more complicated to learn, though not much. The most common way to use a coti is the dilucot method. To do this, you take a smaller piece of coticule and use it as a slurry stone. Rub it on the mother stone a little bit with some water, and you will see the water on the stone turn sort of milky with suspended particles of coticule. The thicker the slurry, the faster it cuts and the duller the edge. It is a balancing act. You would maybe have a fairly heavy slurry to start on the coti right after the bevel setter, and as you hone, you dilute the slurry. As you dilute it, the stone cuts more slowly and the edge gets sharper. Finally you have thinned it down to pure water and you are at the finish stage, with the lightest possible pressure and running water on the stone. The process is a bit involved and more art than science. Some users like the fact that the coticule can replace two or three stones in your lineup. You can set the bevel on a synthetic or a medium Arkansas, then to the dilucot, strop, and shave. You can also add a finishing stage, maybe with a trans or surg black Arkansas. You will not get an insanely sharp edge from a coticule but some will hone finer and slower than others. Some autoslurry, some do not. Some are sold as natural combo stones, with the yellow coticule on one side and the blue BBW on the other, just as they were deposited in layers. There are also glued combo stones but most coti fans want the natural combo. Coticules do not have a grit rating because they are not man made. They are natural rock.

The Naniwa 12k is a very popular finisher. If you are pretty good with either stone, your Naniwa edge will be a lot sharper. It is a much simpler stone to learn to use. They are consistent... one is the same as any other one. They are cheaper, for the same size stone. A coti the same size as the Naniwa Superstone will be kind of expensive. Generally, synthetics are easier for the beginner to learn on.
 
You are right. It only goes to 10k.


Are there any natural stones or Jnats in the price range of a 12k Naniwa?
You could probably find a decent Jnat for that price, and with some nagura it would be much more versatile than the 12k, and leave an edge that is much less harsh. Its totally possible, and easy to go from bevel set to finish on a single stone just using different nagura.

I would check out Keith’s (@Gamma ) Etsy shop. There’s some great stuff on there.

Also, many people love the Naniwa 12k, and while I’d say it’s one of the better synthetics, Naniwa’s quality control isn’t great. It’s not unheard of to have stones with odd textures, abrasive distribution or dimensional instability. Both my 12k and 8k stone swelled considerably when wet from honing leading me to leave them permanently soaked in water. This solved that problem, and is probably safe because they’re resinoid based stones, but does make them a bit softer/more prone to dishing.
 

Slash McCoy

I freehand dog rockets
You could probably find a decent Jnat for that price, and with some nagura it would be much more versatile than the 12k, and leave an edge that is much less harsh. Its totally possible, and easy to go from bevel set to finish on a single stone just using different nagura.

I would check out Keith’s (@Gamma ) Etsy shop. There’s some great stuff on there.

Also, many people love the Naniwa 12k, and while I’d say it’s one of the better synthetics, Naniwa’s quality control isn’t great. It’s not unheard of to have stones with odd textures, abrasive distribution or dimensional instability. Both my 12k and 8k stone swelled considerably when wet from honing leading me to leave them permanently soaked in water. This solved that problem, and is probably safe because they’re resinoid based stones, but does make them a bit softer/more prone to dishing.

A good Jnat of decent size with a good setup of nagura for $85? My little awesado cost way over $100 IIRC and I have another $150 in naguras for it, and it is considerably smaller than a Naniwa SS, and it is nowhere near as straightforward to use as the Naniwa. I got a superior edge from lapping film than the Jnat. I haven't seen any Naniwa stones showing poor quality control and I have used them for quite a while now. It's true that in a manner of speaking, a nice hard Jnat is versatile, in that it can serve the purpose of more than one hone in the progression, And Keith does indeed have some nice looking Jnats or at least did have last time I checked, but I would hesitate to advise a newcomer to honing, to jump right in to Jnats. Kind of a bizarre idea, IYAM. If you are okay with that, cool. I'll shut up about it now. After all, nothing is impossible. You have the floor.
 

Legion

Staff member
Haha. How confused is this poor guy now?

There are many ways to skin a cat.

The Naniwa will be the easiest to learn with IMO. It's not what I use, but it is safe, easy, big, not too expensive.

You could well progress to the other options offered later, but the Naniwa will teach you the fundamentals and get the job done.


And if you can't return the Norton, just use that, then tickle the edge up with some pasted Balsa, which is also easy and cheap, and will get the job done just fine. Or keep the Norton and buy the Naniwa as well, because you will want lots of options if you get into all this as a hobby.

It never really ends. I have owned dozens of stones, am happy with my edges, but I still keep buying more to experiment and play.
 
A good Jnat of decent size with a good setup of nagura for $85? My little awesado cost way over $100 IIRC and I have another $150 in naguras for it, and it is considerably smaller than a Naniwa SS, and it is nowhere near as straightforward to use as the Naniwa. I got a superior edge from lapping film than the Jnat. I haven't seen any Naniwa stones showing poor quality control and I have used them for quite a while now. It's true that in a manner of speaking, a nice hard Jnat is versatile, in that it can serve the purpose of more than one hone in the progression, And Keith does indeed have some nice looking Jnats or at least did have last time I checked, but I would hesitate to advise a newcomer to honing, to jump right in to Jnats. Kind of a bizarre idea, IYAM. If you are okay with that, cool. I'll shut up about it now. After all, nothing is impossible. You have the floor.
First off, Naniwa's quality control issues have been pretty well documented at this point. Both of the 12K's I have from them warp, as does one of my 8K's. If you don't believe me, feel free to google "naniwa superstone warping" and you'll see this is a very common issue.

While I agree that a full JNat setup would be more expensive than just a Naniwa Superstone, he could probably find a Koppa and Tomo Nagura for just a bit more, and he wouldn't need anything other than the tomo for now since he just wants to do touch ups.

I also agree that a JNat would be a slightly steeper learning curve, but personally I wish when I was learning to hone someone had pushed me that direction. Instead I had people telling me I had to learn on synths because they were easier and more consistent, and naturals would be "too difficult" for a newcomer. That lead me to buy synths, learn to hone on synths, and always wonder what I was doing wrong that resulted in a sharp but uncomfortable edge. I tried different synths hoping to find the fabled sharp and smooth edge; from the SG20K to Naniwa SS12K and Naniwa Snow White 8K and the Shapton 30K to name a few of the more popular ones, they all gave a similar sharp but harsh edge. I decided to try lapping films, and they gave the exact same result, sharp as the devil, but uncomfortable on my sensitive skin.

I finally ended up trying a hard, fine Shobu Karasu I had for knives, specifically Uraoshi, and immediately the results were better, smoother edges, though a tad less sharp, but that was to be expected as the Shobu wasn't ideal for razors in the first place. After getting my hands of a few even harder and finer stones, my edges were easily as sharp as anything off a synth, and miles more comfortable.

Long story short, if I had just gotten the JNats in the beginning, and pushed through the learinig curve, I'd have more money in my wallet, less synthetic stones and films taking up space in my cupboard, and would have been enjoying my shaves a lot more, a lot sooner.

I know plenty of people swear by synthetics, and maybe it's just me because I'm young and have sensitive, soft skin, or maybe I'm just picky, but the edges off of JNats are lightyears ahead of anything I have tried from a synthetic in terms of comfort.
 

Legion

Staff member
First off, Naniwa's quality control issues have been pretty well documented at this point. Both of the 12K's I have from them warp, as does one of my 8K's. If you don't believe me, feel free to google "naniwa superstone warping" and you'll see this is a very common issue.

While I agree that a full JNat setup would be more expensive than just a Naniwa Superstone, he could probably find a Koppa and Tomo Nagura for just a bit more, and he wouldn't need anything other than the tomo for now since he just wants to do touch ups.

I also agree that a JNat would be a slightly steeper learning curve, but personally I wish when I was learning to hone someone had pushed me that direction. Instead I had people telling me I had to learn on synths because they were easier and more consistent, and naturals would be "too difficult" for a newcomer. That lead me to buy synths, learn to hone on synths, and always wonder what I was doing wrong that resulted in a sharp but uncomfortable edge. I tried different synths hoping to find the fabled sharp and smooth edge; from the SG20K to Naniwa SS12K and Naniwa Snow White 8K and the Shapton 30K to name a few of the more popular ones, they all gave a similar sharp but harsh edge. I decided to try lapping films, and they gave the exact same result, sharp as the devil, but uncomfortable on my sensitive skin.

I finally ended up trying a hard, fine Shobu Karasu I had for knives, specifically Uraoshi, and immediately the results were better, smoother edges, though a tad less sharp, but that was to be expected as the Shobu wasn't ideal for razors in the first place. After getting my hands of a few even harder and finer stones, my edges were easily as sharp as anything off a synth, and miles more comfortable.

Long story short, if I had just gotten the JNats in the beginning, and pushed through the learinig curve, I'd have more money in my wallet, less synthetic stones and films taking up space in my cupboard, and would have been enjoying my shaves a lot more, a lot sooner.

I know plenty of people swear by synthetics, and maybe it's just me because I'm young and have sensitive, soft skin, or maybe I'm just picky, but the edges off of JNats are lightyears ahead of anything I have tried from a synthetic in terms of comfort.
I am in some ways the same as you. I started with synths, and now prefer natural stones. I exclusively use natural stones now.

BUT. If I had started with them, with no experience, and with the learning curve involved, I know I would probably have given it up as too hard. I’ve never tried lapping film, but I am not going to crap on it, because it is maybe a good way of getting a newbie started.

Once they start, then they can then progress to the other stuff if interested. Do I wish I’d started with what I use now? Yeah, it would have saved me some money, but I probably wouldn’t have been able to get the most out of the expensive natural stones, so I don’t regret learning with the stuff I have moved away from.
 
Last edited:
Well I ended up getting the Naniwa how ever I still plan on getting a natural stone for touchups too. I am having a hard time understanding what I need exactly with the natural/Jnats because they don't have a grit number on them and some of the ones mentioned above have multiple stones under that name in different colors and prices. I'm not sure if they are the same or will work for touchups. So here is my request regarding the Jnats/natural stones. Plz give me the name of the stone that you would recommend and where to get it. I couldn't find they Esty shop that was mentioned earlier either.
 
Most jnats are not plug-n-play like synths. I’m sorry you are getting so many opinions thrown at you from your simple first question and it has deviated this far.

I would highly recommend you stick with the naniwa you ordered now and use it a bit before next jump. Naturals are great and are my preference too, but I am in the camp that you probably don’t need that level of jnat learning just yet since you are asking about what grit synth to touch up on. Swim a little before the deep end....but it is your choice in the end. There is no name of mine or layer of jnat that anyone can tell you and be a 100% solid answer - there is much variation and basically it is best if someone with experience tests each stone. That is basically what others have been saying. Probably the closest to consistent plug-n-play natural finishing stone would be a nice thuringian/Escher hone. They are all good and no tricks needed whatsoever. But I would still recommend you stick with the naniwa you just ordered and get some use with it before you try something else. Good luck
 

Slash McCoy

I freehand dog rockets
Well I ended up getting the Naniwa how ever I still plan on getting a natural stone for touchups too. I am having a hard time understanding what I need exactly with the natural/Jnats because they don't have a grit number on them and some of the ones mentioned above have multiple stones under that name in different colors and prices. I'm not sure if they are the same or will work for touchups. So here is my request regarding the Jnats/natural stones. Plz give me the name of the stone that you would recommend and where to get it. I couldn't find they Esty shop that was mentioned earlier either.

It's a rabbit hole. Maybe even a worm hole. Master synthetics first, and meanwhile study up on naturals, specifically Jnats if that interests you. Measure twice, cut once. Spend some time figuring out what sort of rock you want. Learn all you can about them before you pull the trigger on something that you may well not care for. Small, irregular stones are not that expensive, but if you want a nice spacious rectangle of high quality rock, it is going to be fearsomely expensive once you have the whole kitten caboodle.

I'll tell you what... I still have that awesado I mentioned earlier in this thread, and some naguras. Those are actually more important than the base stone, assuming the base stone is hard enough to make a good finisher. You spend 6 months learning to use synthetic stones and/or lapping film, and I will loan you my Jnat setup. I really don't see how you can hurt it unless you use it to hone your sledge hammers or something. But stick with one thing and learn it at one time. If you skip around all over the place you will be a long time about it and you will spend a lot of money that you could have spent on a nice razor or maybe a nice shell strop. Take the free test drive. Won't cost you a nickel, unless you want to paypal me the postage.

And now the disclaimer. I bought that stone on the recommendation of a fairly knowledgeable person and I got what I expected to get. I never got an edge from that stone that truly satisfied me. I sent it to Alfredo and he gave it a go with a razor I sent with it, and the edge, like every good Jnat edge I have tried, was definitely shave ready but not as sharp, and no smoother than, my balsa edge. I shaved with it, yeah. It was better than my own edge off the same stone... experience tells. Better than a plain Naniwa edge, I think. But he is an expert so consider the source. A good edge, but I am used to better than good. YMMV.

Anyway I suggest you stick with what you got and learn it well, spend at least 6 months with it, then PM me to borrow my Jnat kit and spend a few months learning that. Meanwhile you can absorb all the knowledge about different mines, grades, types, layers, and the all important slurry stones, and get an idea of how the process works. THEN break out the credit card and buy yourself a good stone and three or four different naguras after doing your window shopping. Nothing to lose but your time, and you will lose a lot more if you go at it random-like, with no practical plan.
 
It's a rabbit hole. Maybe even a worm hole. Master synthetics first, and meanwhile study up on naturals, specifically Jnats if that interests you. Measure twice, cut once. Spend some time figuring out what sort of rock you want. Learn all you can about them before you pull the trigger on something that you may well not care for. Small, irregular stones are not that expensive, but if you want a nice spacious rectangle of high quality rock, it is going to be fearsomely expensive once you have the whole kitten caboodle.

I'll tell you what... I still have that awesado I mentioned earlier in this thread, and some naguras. Those are actually more important than the base stone, assuming the base stone is hard enough to make a good finisher. You spend 6 months learning to use synthetic stones and/or lapping film, and I will loan you my Jnat setup. I really don't see how you can hurt it unless you use it to hone your sledge hammers or something. But stick with one thing and learn it at one time. If you skip around all over the place you will be a long time about it and you will spend a lot of money that you could have spent on a nice razor or maybe a nice shell strop. Take the free test drive. Won't cost you a nickel, unless you want to paypal me the postage.

And now the disclaimer. I bought that stone on the recommendation of a fairly knowledgeable person and I got what I expected to get. I never got an edge from that stone that truly satisfied me. I sent it to Alfredo and he gave it a go with a razor I sent with it, and the edge, like every good Jnat edge I have tried, was definitely shave ready but not as sharp, and no smoother than, my balsa edge. I shaved with it, yeah. It was better than my own edge off the same stone... experience tells. Better than a plain Naniwa edge, I think. But he is an expert so consider the source. A good edge, but I am used to better than good. YMMV.

Anyway I suggest you stick with what you got and learn it well, spend at least 6 months with it, then PM me to borrow my Jnat kit and spend a few months learning that. Meanwhile you can absorb all the knowledge about different mines, grades, types, layers, and the all important slurry stones, and get an idea of how the process works. THEN break out the credit card and buy yourself a good stone and three or four different naguras after doing your window shopping. Nothing to lose but your time, and you will lose a lot more if you go at it random-like, with no practical plan.
I can get behind this! Thank you. Do I need the full jnat set up if I'm not wanting to do a full hone on my razor but only want to do the touchups myself?
 

Slash McCoy

I freehand dog rockets
I can get behind this! Thank you. Do I need the full jnat set up if I'm not wanting to do a full hone on my razor but only want to do the touchups myself?

Well that is not a very common question. The bare fact is, yes, you can simply hone on a hard Jnat similarly to how you would finish with a Cnat or black surgical or something like that. You could also use a DMT card to work a little slurry out of the base stone, though this would of course cause additional wear to the stone. But the real strength of Jnat honing is the range you get out of it, using multiple naguras. Well, and also the cloudy bevel surface that is associated with slurried Jnat honing. So if you want to hone that way, then there are a lot of other naturals that would fit the bill for you as well, maybe better. Also like surgical black or trans arkies, a hard Jnat without any slurry will be pretty slow. Once you absorb some of the background knowledge you will probably want a minimum of two slurry stones. Absolute minimum, one good one. But you will more likely try one, then try another and another. It isn't an exact science and your results will be very subjective, and no certain outcome with one particular stone and one particular nagura. If you are looking for predictability and consistency, you want lapping film or quality synthetic stones. Recommendations you get for a particular nagura with a particular base stone will be at least partial guesses based on experience with similar pairings and general reputation of different types.

Be careful trying to do and learn too much at once. It can cause a great deal of frustration. Focus on one method and one tool set for a while. Also I can't stress enough the importance of following a well trodden path to success instead of random trying this or that. Right now I have a vision of Jeffy on Family Circus in his tortuously meandering tangled path from point A to point B.That's what you have, when you don't focus on a tried and true regimen. You may eventually get where you are going, but the direct path is, well, more direct. And refresh my memory... what kind of razor do you have? And who honed it last? I think this thread is ready for a picture break, anyway. Let's see what you got, and make sure it is worth the trouble.
 
Well that is not a very common question. The bare fact is, yes, you can simply hone on a hard Jnat similarly to how you would finish with a Cnat or black surgical or something like that. You could also use a DMT card to work a little slurry out of the base stone, though this would of course cause additional wear to the stone. But the real strength of Jnat honing is the range you get out of it, using multiple naguras. Well, and also the cloudy bevel surface that is associated with slurried Jnat honing. So if you want to hone that way, then there are a lot of other naturals that would fit the bill for you as well, maybe better. Also like surgical black or trans arkies, a hard Jnat without any slurry will be pretty slow. Once you absorb some of the background knowledge you will probably want a minimum of two slurry stones. Absolute minimum, one good one. But you will more likely try one, then try another and another. It isn't an exact science and your results will be very subjective, and no certain outcome with one particular stone and one particular nagura. If you are looking for predictability and consistency, you want lapping film or quality synthetic stones. Recommendations you get for a particular nagura with a particular base stone will be at least partial guesses based on experience with similar pairings and general reputation of different types.

Be careful trying to do and learn too much at once. It can cause a great deal of frustration. Focus on one method and one tool set for a while. Also I can't stress enough the importance of following a well trodden path to success instead of random trying this or that. Right now I have a vision of Jeffy on Family Circus in his tortuously meandering tangled path from point A to point B.That's what you have, when you don't focus on a tried and true regimen. You may eventually get where you are going, but the direct path is, well, more direct. And refresh my memory... what kind of razor do you have? And who honed it last? I think this thread is ready for a picture break, anyway. Let's see what you got, and make sure it is worth the trouble.
I have a Jerry Stark, 7/8, near wedge and I'm saving up for a Koraatt. GreasyThumbs honed my stark last. He did a fantastic job. Only reason I am wanting to get a stone for touch ups is so I dont have to send my razor off to be rehoned when it starts to dull. I want to be able to touch it up my self and send if off to be rehoned once a year or once every other year. I will post a picture later on tonight or tomorrow
 
Well I ended up getting the Naniwa how ever I still plan on getting a natural stone for touchups too. I am having a hard time understanding what I need exactly with the natural/Jnats because they don't have a grit number on them and some of the ones mentioned above have multiple stones under that name in different colors and prices.

Good choice on the Naniwa 12k! You should read these articles:
You will want to buy a stone from a reputable seller. Here are three sellers with good reputations on B&B:
You should think about getting the Naniwa 12k and while you are learning to hone do your reading and watch the stones on the above sites, and the past and new posts on Show us your Japanese Natural Whetstones - https://www.badgerandblade.com/forum/threads/show-us-your-japanese-natural-whetstones.180558/. You will learn a lot.

A natural stone used for touch-ups is referred to as a finishing stone. Make sure the seller's description aligns with what you are looking for, and ask questions.
 
I completely forgot to post theses. Sorry guys. I am thinking about selling this. That or use it as my practice blade on the 12 k stone.
 

Attachments

  • 2F2D5354-03DF-482E-BB45-15EA3D3F7078.jpeg
    2F2D5354-03DF-482E-BB45-15EA3D3F7078.jpeg
    1.1 MB · Views: 8
  • 2483E3AA-0F42-4026-B003-9957D7041457.jpeg
    2483E3AA-0F42-4026-B003-9957D7041457.jpeg
    1.1 MB · Views: 9
  • F3D11334-74A1-4029-96D7-BF4A050FFEE1.jpeg
    F3D11334-74A1-4029-96D7-BF4A050FFEE1.jpeg
    1.2 MB · Views: 9
Naniwa 12k or lapping films are good to start with as they’re inexpensive, they do a good job and the honing area is large. But it is nice to finish on natural stones and they do feel smoother though I don’t know why this is. A shaving friend of mine recommended I try a piece of Welsh slate and he sent me an eBay link to a 6 inch by 1 1/2 inch with a slurry stone for £15. I bought it and I’ve used it more and more in the past couple of years. It took me a while to work out how to use such a small stone. It was tricky to learn the short x strokes needed to keep the edge in full contact with the stone, it was hard to keep the slurry water on it, then time spent experimenting with slurries and plain water etc to see which worked best. But the learning was fun, it was like a little puzzle I had to unlock.
I now raise a bit of slurry on it and hone till it either starts to stick to the stone or it feels completely smooth. Then I dilute and repeat. I’ll probably dilute 3-4 times and then finish on lightening strokes of clear running water. Eventually the razor begins to stick to the stone. I lighten up as much as possible and shorten the strokes till the razor really doesn’t want to move any more. I’d guess at about 150 laps from start to finish, maybe less.
This may be a good intermediary option for you. It’s an introduction to natural stone for very cheap and it gives nice, very smooth edges to about 12k and it’s always nice to have something different to use.
I’m sure a lot of what you’ll learn would later apply to other naturals such as jnats.
Plus using such a small stone really trained me in using small or irregular piece of rock. My last razor was honed on a skinny little shard of black shale which I found out fishing and lapped. The edge was lovely.
So now the size of the stone is of little concern if I see something online.
 

Slash McCoy

I freehand dog rockets
Get yourself a very flat surface that does not flex. A sink cutout from a polished granite countertop works okay. Or an actual calibrated surface plate. I make do with a 12x12" piece of 1" thick cast acrylic. Not ideal but not bad. In the past I used 12x12 polished marble floor tile. Sometimes they are not flat enough.

When you have your plate, lightly spray the back of a whole sheet of sandpaper with 3M spray adhesive and carefully apply it to the plate. Be very careful to keep everything clean. NO dust, lint, hair, air bubbles, etc under the sandpaper. I like the red resin type wet/dry paper.

With a pencil, draw a grid pattern on the stone. THis is your tattletale. Turn the stone grid down onto the sandpaper and rub rub rub, and don't overrun the edges or at least don't do it excessively. Go corner to corner for best results. You will want a bronze bristle brush to clear the sandpaper occasionally. Go until the grid is gone.

Draw your grid again. Change to a finer grit paper. Repeat. The second time won't take long.

The coarse grit depends on how far out of flatness the stone is, because you don't want to take all month and go through 20 sheets of fine sandpaper. OTOH no point in going too coarse, either. Typically 200 grit and then 400 or 600 grit works. For a finisher that is nearly flat maybe 400 and then 800. THen smooth the surface by honing a SS chef knife or something on it.

Acetone is great for removing glue residue from the acrylic, just don't let it stand for long on the acrylic. Also works for granite etc.
 
Top Bottom