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Market Saturation?

Probably. Offhand I can think of Dr. Jon’s, Cold River, Mickey Lee, APR, Lothur that are no longer in business. I’m likely forgetting one or two. Some smaller ones are gone also. Hardware producers (razors and brushes) are probably in a more precarious position, unless it’s a machine shop that can supplement their business with other work, whether making stuff for others brands such as the case with Aylsworth, if they do stuff outside of shaving, or if it’s simply a hobby but then of course there are other things to take into account there such as availability of free time, interest and whatnot.

To be fair, the owner of APR did pass away...
 
The market is saturated. Just look on Amazon, and see how many small companies are selling rebranded Weishi razors.. Or rebranded Baili razors. And just as many companies are selling rebranded muhle and merkur razors. Even more are reselling chinese blades with their own logo, and crappy shave brushes from china as well.

There are hundreds of people reselling melt and pour shave soap, and making a small fortune doing so. Its easy, you could get 20#, 50# bags, and even 50-gallon barrels of the pelletized melt and pour base that you merely heated in a crock pot to a specific temp, and mixed your scents in.



Easier than making soy wax candles at home.



This is very similar to what a few companies are using that i have looked into after seeing recommendations in my tallow soap threads. Im NOT picking at them, but its not a tallow soap... and is not my thing.


https://www.amazon.com/Pifito-Shavi...ur+shave+soap+base&qid=1733808000&sr=8-1&th=1

This pifito might actually be interesting to investigate more.
 
There are hundreds of people reselling melt and pour shave soap, and making a small fortune doing so. Its easy, you could get 20#, 50# bags, and even 50-gallon barrels of the pelletized melt and pour base that you merely heated in a crock pot to a specific temp, and mixed your scents in.
This feels like when my mom told me there is no Santa Claus or Tooth Fairy :( I had no idea about this "artisan" soap farce.
 
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This feels like when my mom told me there is no Santa Claus or Tooth Fairy :( I had no idea about this "artisan" soap farce.
lol the shave den had a wonderful thread on the amount of people reselling melt and pour and making their own label of shaving soap.. and then dumping it on etsy and the like. Ironically it did become a huge war, and the site staff going to the point of declaring "melt and pour bad, buy our stuff and be happy" despite selling melt and pour shave soap products.

there are alot of companies making soap base. KT Soap in the USA. There are companies all over malaysia area selling all kinds of soap base. when you can get a 50 gallon barrel of that melt and pour soap base for under 500$ delivered.. its very very profitable.
 
Great discussion!

I assume the market will change. The ‘action plan’ (for me at least) is to stock up on products I enjoy!!
I've realized my tastes are broad enough to where I have no reason to stock up on anything (although I already have, lol). There's always another product I would be just as happy using, whether it is razor, blade, or soap.

Buy something you like. Use it up. Repeat the cycle until you don't need to shave anymore.
 

Phoenixkh

I shaved a fortune
lol the shave den had a wonderful thread on the amount of people reselling melt and pour and making their own label of shaving soap.. and then dumping it on etsy and the like. Ironically it did become a huge war, and the site staff going to the point of declaring "melt and pour bad, buy our stuff and be happy" despite selling melt and pour shave soap products.

there are alot of companies making soap base. KT Soap in the USA. There are companies all over malaysia area selling all kinds of soap base. when you can get a 50 gallon barrel of that melt and pour soap base for under 500$ delivered.. its very very profitable.
I'm wondering about a popular product that I'm also using..... Ummmmmm?????

 
I've realized my tastes are broad enough to where I have no reason to stock up on anything (although I already have, lol). There's always another product I would be just as happy using, whether it is razor, blade, or soap.

Buy something you like. Use it up. Repeat the cycle until you don't need to shave anymore.

Also a reasonable approach. The main thing IMO is to ENJOY what you have!!:popc:
 
The market is saturated. Just look on Amazon, and see how many small companies are selling rebranded Weishi razors.. Or rebranded Baili razors. And just as many companies are selling rebranded muhle and merkur razors. Even more are reselling chinese blades with their own logo, and crappy shave brushes from china as well.

There are hundreds of people reselling melt and pour shave soap, and making a small fortune doing so. Its easy, you could get 20#, 50# bags, and even 50-gallon barrels of the pelletized melt and pour base that you merely heated in a crock pot to a specific temp, and mixed your scents in.



Easier than making soy wax candles at home.



This is very similar to what a few companies are using that i have looked into after seeing recommendations in my tallow soap threads. Im NOT picking at them, but its not a tallow soap... and is not my thing.


https://www.amazon.com/Pifito-Shaving-Glycerin-Luxurious-Supplies/dp/B07Y1LVQ4B/ref=sr_1_1?adgrpid=1331509145474513&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.TaTVOiIpLCtPkvQlCRjd1Y6kmXeLvD2fEXvX5q2It4XfVdQilT7IR6kx1fqcgGHf4NDYSt2gLP3S8DUdt0E2msrxKXYXyaJsXA-lshuCSrozt-orHRbcU17eBiT5qRlPoTysJdrBzSLLm0lsbwWhkct1tASLwv1XXosadrv_Wbvu6WbBjT9bfBWvicgss9vAtk_29BurFWWzCv6G5f5sTBToTXMwumpK9hs0gg-KIs4-J4I-wktzGpwEnIabJTGI39nFF2pDUv_bNF6OtBwrYwkYcjXzDi_Iyaq45CVJKZY.3Q5nY-f3hi3G_nU_r3WCSpSi2CpHPgjIuzgApq8lrcU&dib_tag=se&hvadid=83219644394354&hvbmt=be&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=52713&hvnetw=o&hvqmt=e&hvtargid=kwd-83219668126165:loc-190&hydadcr=4828_13229955&keywords=melt+and+pour+shave+soap+base&qid=1733808000&sr=8-1&th=1

This pifito might actually be interesting to investigate more.
You can also mix in clay as well that will make your ingredient list different. You are an artisan now.
 
Many valid points here that have merit - life circumstances can lead to a small outfit shutting down. As well, there has been a real shift in the past fifteen years with buying habits. Amazon has conditioned the customer to expect free shipping. I don't blame the customer, that is human nature. However, shipping is a very real expense and not something a small business can just absorb.

There is mention here of Chinese goods impacting the artisan market. That, we have experienced first hand. Our ceramic lather bowl can be had for half the price if you get a factory made Chinese version, and it looks factory made. A Canadian retailer we had began carrying the Chinese version and we cut him off lest customers get confused. Likewise with our copper lather bowls. A US retailer took our design, found someone to make them, and stuck their own name on it. We no longer ship to him.

For us it comes down to two things:

1. Defending your brand.
2. Selling on value.

If you are a small operator and decide to play the game of who can do it for cheaper you are going to lose. You won't beat the big guy because you are playing by his rules. So you don't. This is where selling on value comes in. You give the customer an authentic high touch experience. Immediate shipping, free samples, and often a hand written note checks those boxes.

Even then, it is not easy. There really is no such thing as "going to work" and then "going home." Small business is all encompassing, not a place where you just punch the clock. Either it is a good fit or it is not. Statistically 80% of all small businesses fail in the first five years. Who would get on an airplane that had odds like that of it crashing? And yet for me and I suspect many others who are self-employed it is exhilarating. This due mostly to the wide variety of tasks you need to perform and to the daily uncertainty of having a small business. Oh, and you better be innovating, always innovating.
 
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Many valid points here that have merit - life circumstances can lead to a small outfit shutting down. As well, there has been a real shift in the past fifteen years with buying habits. Amazon has conditioned the customer to expect free shipping. I don't blame the customer, that is human nature. However, shipping is a very real expense and not something a small business can just absorb.

There is mention here of Chinese goods impacting the artisan market. That, we have experienced first hand. Our ceramic lather bowl can be had for half the price if you get a factory made Chinese version, and it looks factory made. A Canadian retailer we had began carrying the Chinese version and we cut him off lest customers get confused. Likewise with our copper lather bowls. A US retailer took our design, found someone to make them, and stuck their own name on it. We no longer ship to him.

For us it comes down to two things:

1. Defending your brand.
2. Selling on value.

If you are a small operator and decide to play the game of who can do it for cheaper you are going to lose. You won't beat the big guy because you are playing by his rules. So you don't. This is where selling on value comes in. You give the customer an authentic high touch experience. Immediate shipping, free samples, and often a hand written note checks those boxes.

Even then, it is not easy. There really is no such thing as "going to work" and then "going home." Small business is all encompassing, not something you just punch the clock at. Either it is a good fit or it is not. Statistically 80% of all small businesses fail in the first five years. Who would get on an airplane that had odds like that of it crashing? And yet for me and I suspect many others who are self-employed it is exhilarating. This due mostly to the wide variety of tasks you need to perform and to the daily uncertainty of having a small business. Oh, and you better be innovating, always innovating.
And this is why (when you release that new copper bowl in January) I'm going to be buying from you.

I apologize in advance for being preachy here, and I'm sure I will offend some...

But this is also why, despite Yaqi and Weishi and whatever being out there shamelessly copying and undercutting, I bought my razors from Henson and Yates, why I got my brushes from Simpson and Rudy Vey.

This is why I buy my soaps from Mike's, MdC, SV, and Castle Forbes... and not some melt-and-pour fly-by-night on Etsy.

I'm not a huge fan of "intellectual property" or spending more than I need to, but there's also something about supporting the innovators, the ones who don't cut corners and produce quality, the folks who are in it for more than just to make a buck, the ones who look after their workers/partners, and the ones who care about customer service.
 
The market is saturated. Just look on Amazon, and see how many small companies are selling rebranded Weishi razors.. Or rebranded Baili razors. And just as many companies are selling rebranded muhle and merkur razors. Even more are reselling chinese blades with their own logo, and crappy shave brushes from china as well.

There are hundreds of people reselling melt and pour shave soap, and making a small fortune doing so. Its easy, you could get 20#, 50# bags, and even 50-gallon barrels of the pelletized melt and pour base that you merely heated in a crock pot to a specific temp, and mixed your scents in.



Easier than making soy wax candles at home.



This is very similar to what a few companies are using that i have looked into after seeing recommendations in my tallow soap threads. Im NOT picking at them, but its not a tallow soap... and is not my thing.


https://www.amazon.com/Pifito-Shaving-Glycerin-Luxurious-Supplies/dp/B07Y1LVQ4B/ref=sr_1_1?adgrpid=1331509145474513&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.TaTVOiIpLCtPkvQlCRjd1Y6kmXeLvD2fEXvX5q2It4XfVdQilT7IR6kx1fqcgGHf4NDYSt2gLP3S8DUdt0E2msrxKXYXyaJsXA-lshuCSrozt-orHRbcU17eBiT5qRlPoTysJdrBzSLLm0lsbwWhkct1tASLwv1XXosadrv_Wbvu6WbBjT9bfBWvicgss9vAtk_29BurFWWzCv6G5f5sTBToTXMwumpK9hs0gg-KIs4-J4I-wktzGpwEnIabJTGI39nFF2pDUv_bNF6OtBwrYwkYcjXzDi_Iyaq45CVJKZY.3Q5nY-f3hi3G_nU_r3WCSpSi2CpHPgjIuzgApq8lrcU&dib_tag=se&hvadid=83219644394354&hvbmt=be&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=52713&hvnetw=o&hvqmt=e&hvtargid=kwd-83219668126165:loc-190&hydadcr=4828_13229955&keywords=melt+and+pour+shave+soap+base&qid=1733808000&sr=8-1&th=1

This pifito might actually be interesting to investigate more.

Mmm I don't think the tallow soap bases that lots of artisans are using are similar to the glycerin based melt & pour formulas. I had read your other thread regarding tallow soaps when you posted it and not wanting it to contain food thickeners and all that, and I don't think the soap bases you're referencing (places like Declaration Grooming, Wholly Kaw, Aion etc) are anywhere close to these melt & pour products (which I completely agree with you are very simplistic and can be done in bulk for dirt cheap).

I totally get it if the more complex soap bases don't have ingredients you like and aren't your thing, that's totally fine and I know a lot of people prefer simplistic bases. But I don't think it's a fair/accurate comparison to say that "modern" tallow bases with lots of ingredients aren't "true" tallow soaps or that they are comparable to the melt & pour kits. Personally I don't equate soaps from the 50's or whatever historical timeframe as being the baseline for what a tallow shaving soap should be.
 
It occurs to me that small artisan companies come and go in no small part because each customer (probably a hobbyist like many of us) buys more than they need. Sooner or later though we either drastically reign in our spending habit or stop altogether because we've found what we like or because we want to make a dent in the stash we have amassed.

That's a rather volatile situation for any business to bear.
 
Mmm I don't think the tallow soap bases that lots of artisans are using are similar to the glycerin based melt & pour formulas. I had read your other thread regarding tallow soaps when you posted it and not wanting it to contain food thickeners and all that, and I don't think the soap bases you're referencing (places like Declaration Grooming, Wholly Kaw, Aion etc) are anywhere close to these melt & pour products (which I completely agree with you are very simplistic and can be done in bulk for dirt cheap).

I totally get it if the more complex soap bases don't have ingredients you like and aren't your thing, that's totally fine and I know a lot of people prefer simplistic bases. But I don't think it's a fair/accurate comparison to say that "modern" tallow bases with lots of ingredients aren't "true" tallow soaps or that they are comparable to the melt & pour kits. Personally I don't equate soaps from the 50's or whatever historical timeframe as being the baseline for what a tallow shaving soap should be.
We can go around the bush of ingredients rather well, so lets have an easy little fist fight.
Everyone agrees that the OLD "real tallow" version of Williams was a really good soap. Yet it had no need for the wierd food based ingredients like a good number of modern tallow shaving soaps have. Thus, why are these food ingredients NEEDED in the modern soap?
 
We can go around the bush of ingredients rather well, so lets have an easy little fist fight.
Everyone agrees that the OLD "real tallow" version of Williams was a really good soap. Yet it had no need for the wierd food based ingredients like a good number of modern tallow shaving soaps have. Thus, why are these food ingredients NEEDED in the modern soap?

I’ve tried old Williams, as well as other old tallow-based soaps. I think the modern soaps are much better. That’s just me, so again that’s why I said if that’s what works for you that’s fine.
But again, I don’t think a comparison between the modern artisan soaps and M&P kits are at all accurate. And if we’re talking about NEED, that’s a much different discussion about innovation… do we need DE razors when older generations just used straight razors and who knows what else? This could go a hundred different ways outside of wetshaving so we don’t even need to start that…
 
It occurs to me that small artisan companies come and go in no small part because each customer (probably a hobbyist like many of us) buys more than they need. Sooner or later though we either drastically reign in our spending habit or stop altogether because we've found what we like or because we want to make a dent in the stash we have amassed.

That's a rather volatile situation for any business to bear.
I don't think this is 100% the case.

With any hobby, there's folks that care about different details of what they're using, and in most hobbies, there are also adjacent products that are more durable or more consumable.

For example, the primary focus of a pen enthusiast is the pen itself, but you also will care about (and run out of) ink. Different nibs, different paper, piston mechanisms... And just as with RAD, there's also the same impetus to collect new pens as well.

Just like most people use a basic disposable ballpoint pen, most folks shaving use disposable cartridge types or the disposable plastic one-piece. They'll use goo from a can or bar soap. That doesn't mean there isn't a niche for those who care about their razor/shave soap/brush/blades, or folks who have 20 different inks, 30 different papers, and love their $500 fountain pen.

I can see in times of financial stress and geopolitical strife that these specialty markets can contract becoming smaller and more local, but there will always be people who have stronger interest in some of their tools/possessions, who use them differently... and these wear out and need new adjacent products.
 
I don't think this is 100% the case.

With any hobby, there's folks that care about different details of what they're using, and in most hobbies, there are also adjacent products that are more durable or more consumable.

For example, the primary focus of a pen enthusiast is the pen itself, but you also will care about (and run out of) ink. Different nibs, different paper, piston mechanisms... And just as with RAD, there's also the same impetus to collect new pens as well.

Just like most people use a basic disposable ballpoint pen, most folks shaving use disposable cartridge types or the disposable plastic one-piece. They'll use goo from a can or bar soap. That doesn't mean there isn't a niche for those who care about their razor/shave soap/brush/blades, or folks who have 20 different inks, 30 different papers, and love their $500 fountain pen.

I can see in times of financial stress and geopolitical strife that these specialty markets can contract becoming smaller and more local, but there will always be people who have stronger interest in some of their tools/possessions, who use them differently... and these wear out and need new adjacent products.
need and want is an issue. There is no need to go buy a 300$ stainless or titanium razor that doesnt have any proof it will do better then the travel tech currently drying on my sink counter.
 
need and want is an issue. There is no need to go buy a 300$ stainless or titanium razor that doesnt have any proof it will do better then the travel tech currently drying on my sink counter.
Absolutely agree. Need ≠ Want

But sometimes, the more expensive or rarer option is better in some way, at least for some people.

How much it is better, how much that matters, and what that difference is worth, all result in different people having different priorities.

I think you'd agree that there's some difference between a Wolfman WR3 and a Lord L6, for example.

Whether that difference matters or not to you, or me, or any one particular buyer is what makes the market diverse.
 
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