Market Saturation?

[Dimitri]

Do you think we are in danger of losing some of our beloved brands or artisans and vendors? I ask because of the recent closure of Executive Shaving in the UK. Several years ago, near me, Old Town Shaving closed, but I think that was the owner going into retirement. Art of Shaving I believe has closed all its stores. I know they were owned by P&G and hated by many, but I think their presence in malls and such did a lot to help garner back interest into wet-shaving or at least winning a lot of people over to using a DE razor. I thought I read here on the forum somewhere that Shavemac may be going under and that they recently stopped selling online via their website. Presently they are only selling through a handful of vendors. Above the Tie etc. I hope I'm wrong.

Are we at the point now where "only the strong will survive," as the old saying goes? I'm not sure why I'm bringing this up. I just see this stuff and it makes me sad. I guess I'm just looking for reassurance that it will all be OK lol.

Am I making much ado about nothing?

 

[helicopter]

The American artesan soap market is pretty saturated. A lot of brands are a side gig for people with other day jobs, and that is putting a lot of pressure on companies like Barrister and Mann. Will Carius was talking about it in an interview I watched.

I am not sure about CNC razor producers.

 

[Dimitri]

The American artesan soap market is pretty saturated. A lot of brands are a side gig for people with other day jobs, and that is putting a lot of pressure on companies like Barrister and Mann. Will Carius was talking about it in an interview I watched.

I am not sure about CNC razor producers.

I've wondered about the CNC razor producers. I'd really hate to see Timeless, for example, go out of business. But I think that they, along with Henson, are full blown machine shop operations and have a lot of other types of manufacturing at the core of their business, so they will likely be OK. At least I'm hoping.

 

[idjekyll]

I feel commerce has always been 'only the strong will survive' and if done well, it is the consumers who benefit as they're forced to innovate and compete or fade. It's a good thing our 'hardware' are made to last so I'm good to let nature take its course.

 

[abies]

The landscape has changed a lot since I started wetshaving. It does seem like there's a certain amount of contraction in the market but it's still much much deeper and broader of a market than when I started 15 years ago or so. Like any situation like this I'm not sure the absolute best always survive which is sad but I also don't feel like the market is unhealthy either.

On various forums there seems to be constant rates of people discovering wetshaving for the first time.

There's definitely businesses and submarkets that have expanded which is part of what's going on. Chinese producers, for example are a huge presence now in ways they weren't and I can think of some other vendors with a large presence that weren't before.

I guess I'm saying I think the market is evolving, for better or worse, but I don't think wetshaving per se is declining in popularity.

 

[TOVT]

Above the Tie etc. I hope I'm wrong.

Blackland owns Above the Tie now.
I think Shane said something about releasing their first offering soon, during his latest 25% off video.

Blackland acquires Above the Tie

Known for its high-quality, machined safety razors, Above the Tie is joining the Blackland family of shaving gear.

www.blacklandrazors.com

 

[idjekyll]

Blackland owns Above the Tie now.
I think Shane said something about releasing their first offering soon, during his latest 25% off video.

Blackland acquires Above the Tie

Known for its high-quality, machined safety razors, Above the Tie is joining the Blackland family of shaving gear.

www.blacklandrazors.com

I'm a post-ATT newbie wet shaver so this interests me.

 

[DesertIguana]

Well here is my take on Market Saturation, and the Wet Shaving Industry. Too many Soap makers, too many Brush makers, too many Razor makers, how many Soaps, Razors, or Brushes does person need? I did not say WANT, I said need?

Several Razor makers have gone out of business, Charcoal Goods, Above the Tie, and could list as few more. Read where Jake of Yates is YatesRazor is no longer running Yates full-time, he has taken a real job, with all the goodies to take care of wife, and sons. I am sure if Jake could make a go of only doing his line of Razors, and contract work to take care of family, he would not be doing that. Not working for someone else.

Then you have the Brick & Mortar Wet Shave Supply Shops that are struggling to compete against the Online Retailers who do not have the overhead expense of Brick & Mortar shop does.

Even the online retailer are in a war of survival as there are so many of them, few have good customer service. Several I have reach out to via phone message or e-mail, about something, never answer emails, or return phone calls. They make my never do business with list forever. Why have Voicemail or email if you do not reply to it?. Maybe they are just hobby businesses?

In the end their will be fewer business in business, less selection of Soaps, Razors, Blades, Shave Brushes, etc.

Last factor is the Asians coming into the Wet Shave Industry, they will copy, clone, make cheaper anything they can make a buck on. We have seen their Razors, Brushes, and Shave Accessories, some are super. Plus a fraction the cost of the product they cloned, or copied.

 

[wetshaver233]

There might be some decline, but I don't think it's equal for every brand and it really depends on the products that they are making and seling. The main reason why the British websites in general have a stuggle, is because of Brexit, which means that everyone from the EU must pay VAT and maybe import taxes as well when purchasing something and that's not counting the slightly more expensive shipping costs.

The Italian website rasoigoodfellas to my knowledge is dominating the EU market, because not only do they have a huge wide range of assortments, but they also give the buyers some extra discounts the more they buy. They also have a -35% discount for nearly all of the products they sell on their Black Friday, which is around the corner and have their own razors, brushes, cosmetics and what not. The more adaptive a brand or a online merchat is, the better his business be in the long run.

When it comes to razors, a company must also adapt to the changes and keeps creating new razors or features at least every once in a while just to stay relevant, because unless their product is highly popular and commercialized like the Henson and Rockwell razors, I don't think that alone would be enough to sustain such brand in a long run, since razors are usually a one time purchase.

I think brushes suffer the most, because (that's just my take) most people don't care about expensive and fancy brushes even those who own very expensive razors and spend lots of money on soaps and those who spend some money on brushes are surrounded by tons and tons of different artisans and countless options. The Chinese brands are also pushing more and more with their premium brushes and of course competitive prices, which makes things even worse.

The cosmetics are probably the ones that are doing better than anyone else. I could be wrong, but I don't remember seeing any decline in the recent years when it comes to new soaps and aftershaves. They also range from more affordable to somewhat expensive and everyone imo is satisfied to some degree.

My conclusion is that some shaving products are just not as popular or people are not willing to spend more money for them or/and there are lots of companies making that product and they compete for each and every customer. Others have a steady supply of customers and at least most of them are not worried too much. Another thing that I'm noticing is that some companies or manufacturers are making shaving products as a side job and not their main job and income. I guess not everyone can rely on shaving products alone to make not only a living, but also to make a huge profit out of it, but again that's just my take on this and I could be wrong.

 

[anoop]

This post should be in The Barber's Shop forum.

I think we are always in danger of losing our favorite brand. I tend to be the kind that sticks with something until they either change something on me or go out of business.

That's what happened with Art of Shaving (acquired by P&G and formulation changed). AoS had store presence even before P&G acquisition -- P&G should have just left them alone. The Gentlemen's Refinery (my second stop for creams) seems to have gone out of business. Since then I have been using Muhle Organic.

As far as brushes, Vulfix was my first and is out of business. My next was the L'Occitane Plisson and L'Occitane no longer offers that brush. Plisson themselves have stopped offering the blond fiber in that brush. Fortunately I was able to get one even after they discontinued and I hope it will last me many years.

I was almost on the verge of buying an Above The Tie Windsor M1 when they went out of business. It was the other razor I was considering at the time I bought my Feather AS-D2 back around 2012 or so. Also didn't like that they had started making some parts overseas.

I had been using Kopari shower gel for over 2 years when they suddenly changed the formulation and it felt like a completely different product.

I had been using F Miller Skincare body oil for a couple years when they did something and my skin started reacting to it. Then switched to Mutha and the same thing happened after a couple of years, and they confirmed they had changed the supplier of one of their ingredients.

The brand of pants I buy says they don't know if they will be making the style I like anymore and they are currently sold out of it.

The brand of polo I wear has been discontinuing the colors I've been buying.

On and on and on...

 

[GR5233]

Art of Shaving I believe has closed all its stores. I know they were owned by P&G

I know Art of Shaving is still around. I think what P&G realized is that having a physical AoS solo storefront was too expensive to work. From what I’ve seen they transitioned to online sales though it’s own website and in store sales through Target. I think you might also be able to find them on Amazon too. I honestly think that with some companies if they’re going to have a physical store they would only need one. Or selling through someone like Maggards or West Coast Shaving

 

[anoop]

I know Art of Shaving is still around. I think what P&G realized is that having a physical AoS solo storefront was too expensive to work. From what I’ve seen they transitioned to online sales though it’s own website and in store sales through Target. I think you might also be able to find them on Amazon too. I honestly think that with some companies if they’re going to have a physical store they would only need one. Or selling through someone like Maggards or West Coast Shaving

I've seen them at Macy's. But ever since P&G took over, the products were reformulated and no longer at the same level that they were before the acquisition.

 

[GR5233]

I've seen them at Macy's. But ever since P&G took over, the products were reformulated and no longer at the same level that they were before the acquisition.

It’s been a long time since I’ve been to Macy’s and the last time I was there I didn’t even look for AoS there. I’ve heard that they were better before P&G took over. I have a post takeover AoS sandalwood cream. Honestly it’s not horrible but the scent is too synthetic for me and I’d rather use Palmolive or Proraso

 

[Blackland Razors]

There are many reasons that small businesses close. It's not always that sales go to zero and a closure may not indicate anything about the larger market. Most of these brands are really small - many are one person - and all are owner-involved. So I think it's quite helpful in this context to think about these as jobs instead of simply businesses in the grand sense (like a public company). In that way, it's understandable that somebody might want to change jobs after doing the same thing for 5+ years or they might find that another pays more or provides better quality of life. It may not say anything about the market at all.

 

[kingfisher]

This post should be in The Barber's Shop forum.

I think we are always in danger of losing our favorite brand. I tend to be the kind that sticks with something until they either change something on me or go out of business.

That's what happened with Art of Shaving (acquired by P&G and formulation changed). AoS had store presence even before P&G acquisition -- P&G should have just left them alone. The Gentlemen's Refinery (my second stop for creams) seems to have gone out of business. Since then I have been using Muhle Organic.

As far as brushes, Vulfix was my first and is out of business. My next was the L'Occitane Plisson and L'Occitane no longer offers that brush. Plisson themselves have stopped offering the blond fiber in that brush. Fortunately I was able to get one even after they discontinued and I hope it will last me many years.

I was almost on the verge of buying an Above The Tie Windsor M1 when they went out of business. It was the other razor I was considering at the time I bought my Feather AS-D2 back around 2012 or so. Also didn't like that they had started making some parts overseas.

I had been using Kopari shower gel for over 2 years when they suddenly changed the formulation and it felt like a completely different product.

I had been using F Miller Skincare body oil for a couple years when they did something and my skin started reacting to it. Then switched to Mutha and the same thing happened after a couple of years, and they confirmed they had changed the supplier of one of their ingredients.

The brand of pants I buy says they don't know if they will be making the style I like anymore and they are currently sold out of it.

The brand of polo I wear has been discontinuing the colors I've been buying.

On and on and on...

The only thing that is constant is change. One has to learn to adapt.

 

[Calyshaver]

I kind of think this is classic supply and demand economic theory at play here, it is survival of the strong. As new firms enter an industry prices fall, and therefore profits fall. Firms continue to enter the industry until profits fall to unsustainable levels. When firms in an industry, wet shaving in this example, are experiencing economic losses, they will leave. When enough firms leave the industry, prices increase and profits go up.

[I hope that was not too boring of a response]

 

[DesertIguana]

There are many reasons that small businesses close. It's not always that sales go to zero and a closure may not indicate anything about the larger market. Most of these brands are quite small - many are one person - and all are owner-involved. So I think it's quite helpful in this context to think about as these jobs instead of simply businesses in the grand sense (like a public company). In that way, it's quite understandable that somebody might want to change jobs after doing the same thing for 5+ years or they might find that another pays more or provides better quality of life. It may not say anything about the market at all.

Many small business ownesr are like people who go to Bars to drink and see all the money changing hands. They say self this place is gold mine that also has mony printing press.

Truth is be it Bar, Restaurant, or Company that make Razor being the owner of small business is a 24 x 7 x 366 JOB. Good owners wears every hat, do every job, never takes vacation, long weekend, 0r leave business unattended very long.

Maybe after 3-5 years you might have everything under control, but never be more then phone call away to put out fire, fix problem, or step in to cover for some employee best for drunk driving or worst.

This is all called pride of ownership, and sometime not drawing a pay check because business needs money more then you.

 

[FullBoar]

Probably. Offhand I can think of Dr. Jon’s, Cold River, Mickey Lee, APR, Lothur that are no longer in business. I’m likely forgetting one or two. Some smaller ones are gone also. Hardware producers (razors and brushes) are probably in a more precarious position, unless it’s a machine shop that can supplement their business with other work, whether making stuff for others brands such as the case with Aylsworth, if they do stuff outside of shaving, or if it’s simply a hobby but then of course there are other things to take into account there such as availability of free time, interest and whatnot.

Then there’s the competition from the Chinese manufacturers, who are blatantly copying some designs and have lower manufacturing costs, for the time being anyway. They do offer some very cheaply priced products, but they’ve also started to sell more premium priced offerings, some of which are overpriced imo, at least for the US market (EU and others may have to pay VAT and other fees which makes buying from them more attractive).

Hopefully those that weathered covid can weather the post-covid economy.

I think it also depends on where companies are and what market they’re in such as US vs UK vs Europe and the rest of the world. UK is probably in the worst spot due to Brexit.

Worst case scenario for vendors such as Maggard who maintain a brick and mortar presence, hopefully IF something were to happen and they had to close their physical location, they could maintain a sufficient amount of business to continue to operate as an online-only operation.

I’m not involved in the business end of wetshaving, however, so I may as well be talking out of my *** for all I know .

 

[profusion]

I'm a bit late to this thread, but there's another factor to consider--the fad for beards. It seems like every gent under 40 has a beard, now. They may not want or need to invest in a fancier shaving regimen just to shave their neck. Heck, a lot of guys just go with a neckbeard!

Even the mainstream shaving world seems to have contracted. Just look at the shaving aisle at your local grocery store or pharmacy. Not nearly as much of a selection as even just a few years ago. There are as many beard oil brands as there are shaving creams at my favorite grocery store.

 

[ERS4]

Dear gentleman, this kind of change has been happening for more than a hundred years, and only a few people really smiled until the end.

But don’t worry that our favorite wet shaving will disappear, there will be other forms that will continue their formula.
For example, Darwin's classic appearance has been inherited by Asylum Evolution and Walfman; Gibbs' design has been repeatedly reproduced by many brands such as Rex and Pearl...

The same storm also occurred within Gillette. On the surface, Gillette seemed to have won the patent war that year and acquired Probak and AutoStrop, but it did make Henry J. Gaisman the majority shareholder and de facto owner of Gillette.

As for the familiar store closings, they have more to do with inflation/consumption squeeze in recent years; if things get even more serious, more people may consider grinding disposable blades until they are no longer usable, as they did in the 1930s.
Luckily the gentlemen here have plenty of blades in stock.