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Manufacturing process today vs 80 years ago

With all the newer brands of double edges coming out the past 10 yeas, has the manufacturing
process really improved that much. When I look at my old Gillettes. I can't imagine the tolerances
being much tighter now. I've pondered buying one of the newer stainless steel razors but other
than to just have one I can't see the point. I have 3 or 4 vintage razors that will give me a BBS
shave with 2 passes and a touchup around the jawline and neck. My beard while not overly heavy
is pretty wiry. While the finishes on stainless steel will be more durable several of my razors up to
over 90 years old would be hard to tell from new
 
You won't necessarily have a better shave. I can get a great shave out of an open comb Gillette old type, but the workmanship on a modern razor is just nice to see. It is somewhat similar to hand planes. I have a Stanley #5 that does a great job if I keep the iron sharp, but I sure wouldn't mind trying out one of the new modern planes.
 
Most vintage Gillettes were made by stamping or casting brass pieces and plating them. It's true that CNC machinery can produce parts with tighter tolerances, but the tolerances achieved in mass production razors 70-80 years ago were suitable for shaving then and now. Tolerances were tight enough for the job, IOW.
 
With all the newer brands of double edges coming out the past 10 yeas, has the manufacturing
process really improved that much. When I look at my old Gillettes. I can't imagine the tolerances
being much tighter now. I've pondered buying one of the newer stainless steel razors but other
than to just have one I can't see the point. I have 3 or 4 vintage razors that will give me a BBS
shave with 2 passes and a touchup around the jawline and neck. My beard while not overly heavy
is pretty wiry. While the finishes on stainless steel will be more durable several of my razors up to
over 90 years old would be hard to tell from new
What is staggering is the economies of scale that Gillette achieved, especially in the post war period, without sacrificing mostly superb tolerances and build quality. I think some 6 million 195 Adjustables were made, and probably 12-14 million Slims. Added to that the hundreds of millions of Techs, Super Speeds in various forms, and the pre war production of all the OC's and that is not counting the production of the England and other foreign Gillette plants.

It would be nice to find out the total production of Gilette DE's from 1905 to the 1990's. I would guesstimate not far short of half a billion maybe.

The modern makers have made incremental improvements, but they are more works of art that you are buying. The artisanal razors are small quantity endevours, with long lead times often for buyers. The contemporary big DE razor makers, like Parker, Merkur and EJ are no slouches in mass production either though.
 
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FarmerTan

"Self appointed king of Arkoland"
A Gillette New Long Comb is tough to beat, but I must admit, the razors I have used from Timeless just seem to fit in the hand different. NOT better, just different. Balance, weight, etc.... I have found that the Timeless ones require a more "hydrated" lather, which is kinda not as pleasant for me.
 
I love how sturdy my Razorock stainless razors look and feel. The performance is great! Modern razor manufacturing seems to be pretty good based on my limited experience.

My prewar Tech has proven that it can stand the test of time. It's probably around 50 years older than me, very light, and still delivers a wonderfully smooth shave.

I imagine my modern razors will outlast me, but Gillette really did things right.
 

FarmerTan

"Self appointed king of Arkoland"
A Gillette New Long Comb is tough to beat, but I must admit, the razors I have used from Timeless just seem to fit in the hand different. NOT better, just different. Balance, weight, etc.... I have found that the Timeless ones require a more "hydrated" lather, which is kinda not as pleasant for me.
This is (oh! I'm gonna sound like the War Department!) probably because I don't use the Timeless Razors as often as the "old timers" that I have had longer. But really, in all honesty, Gillette REALLY did do a very fine job of designing razors, beginning a HUNDRED years ago! Think about that a second. Just....wow!

Of course, I blame my lather problems MOSTLY on @matwho ........ if he'd had the decency to gift me those beautiful Timeless pieces of sculpture SOONER than he did, you folks would have had even more time to enjoy me singing their praises, and my wife would have enjoyed my incredibly handsome face even more!

Man, it's getting harder and harder trying to paint myself as a victim here on Badger and Blade. I'm stretching my branes more than Silly Putty on steroids these days.
 

FarmerTan

"Self appointed king of Arkoland"
I love how sturdy my Razorock stainless razors look and feel. The performance is great! Modern razor manufacturing seems to be pretty good based on my limited experience.

My prewar Tech has proven that it can stand the test of time. It's probably around 50 years older than me, very light, and still delivers a wonderfully smooth shave.

I imagine my modern razors will outlast me, but Gillette really did things right.
You might have said the same thing as I did, but you didn't use as flowery of a turn of fraze as I did my friend. You need to werk on yer common man English if you plan on having a future in DC like me my friend!
 
With all the newer brands of double edges coming out the past 10 yeas, has the manufacturing
process really improved that much. When I look at my old Gillettes. I can't imagine the tolerances
being much tighter now. I've pondered buying one of the newer stainless steel razors but other
than to just have one I can't see the point. I have 3 or 4 vintage razors that will give me a BBS
shave with 2 passes and a touchup around the jawline and neck. My beard while not overly heavy
is pretty wiry. While the finishes on stainless steel will be more durable several of my razors up to
over 90 years old would be hard to tell from new
Manufacturing has changed that much, as noted, scale is the most significant change. The razors of modern production (with a couple of notable exceptions) are "artisan," or small machine shop/single manufacturer. Truth be told, all any of us need is a single razor that checks boxes for comfort, cost and desired closeness of shave. Most modern razors are tuned to style vs. cost, with a margin of efficacy, and so overall numbers are comparatively low.

Our 90-120 year old razors may be beautiful, but they are a bare handful of exceptions. The vast majority were melted down for brass (pick your war) or are buried in old landfills. If you use your vintage daily, or every other day, assuming 30-40 years of use, your child/grandchild will have to have it plated to preserve the look, and brass certainly shows drops & dings, more than stainless.
 
You won't necessarily have a better shave. I can get a great shave out of an open comb Gillette old type, but the workmanship on a modern razor is just nice to see. It is somewhat similar to hand planes. I have a Stanley #5 that does a great job if I keep the iron sharp, but I sure wouldn't mind trying out one of the new modern planes.
Not to get off topic here, but I have used a Lie Nielsen plane and I have several vintage Stanley's, dating from late 1800's to the 50's.

I can say with absolute honesty that the difference is negligible. The lie Nielsen has a thicker iron and wonderful machining and more heft, but as long as the vintage Stanley is set up properly and wasn't beat to snot there is not enough improvement to justify the almost $400 price tag vs the $10 antique store find.

To the OP, has manufacturing changed that much? Yes, yes it has. Today's modern CNC machines can hold incredibly tight tolerances and are capable of producing accurate parts much faster than 100-120 years ago.

Luckily for us though, I don't feel quality has declined, as far as DE razors go, in the past 120 years. Yes, there are cheap razors of lesser quality out there, but you can still buy a quality razor that if properly cared for will last a long time for a reasonable price.

For example, Muhle, Edwin jagger, and parker make some pretty good razors for a very modest price.

Also, considering how many Gillette's have cracked handles and tubes from the stamped brass parts, I would almost argue quality has improved as of late with affordable solid bar handles.

In a time where most things are built cheaper and cheaper to maximize profit, I find this refreshing honestly.
 
You won't necessarily have a better shave. I can get a great shave out of an open comb Gillette old type, but the workmanship on a modern razor is just nice to see. It is somewhat similar to hand planes. I have a Stanley #5 that does a great job if I keep the iron sharp, but I sure wouldn't mind trying out one of the new modern planes.

Sorry, off topic again but one last thing.

I am by no means trying to bash Lie Nielsen here. They are one of, if not THE, best makers of woodworking hand tools in the modern world. Their website says say heirloom quality tools and that is not false advertising.

Their bench planes, besides the no 1, are based off the Stanley bedrock design, which among other things has a much more solid frog to bed contact than the Bailey pattern planes that are so common. They also offer optional high angle frogs vs Stanley which was standard at 45 degrees.

If you work a lot of figured or exotic wood with hand tools, this may be of value to you as it can reduce the risk chatter and tear out when set up properly.

But, anyone who tells you a vintage Stanley is an inferior plane to a Lie Nielsen is just trying to justify the large amount of money they spent on a Lie Nielsen.

There is a reason Lie Nielsen copied Stanley.
 
Not to get off topic here, but I have used a Lie Nielsen plane and I have several vintage Stanley's, dating from late 1800's to the 50's.

I can say with absolute honesty that the difference is negligible. The lie Nielsen has a thicker iron and wonderful machining and more heft, but as long as the vintage Stanley is set up properly and wasn't beat to snot there is not enough improvement to justify the almost $400 price tag vs the $10 antique store find.

To the OP, has manufacturing changed that much? Yes, yes it has. Today's modern CNC machines can hold incredibly tight tolerances and are capable of producing accurate parts much faster than 100-120 years ago.

Luckily for us though, I don't feel quality has declined, as far as DE razors go, in the past 120 years. Yes, there are cheap razors of lesser quality out there, but you can still buy a quality razor that if properly cared for will last a long time for a reasonable price.

For example, Muhle, Edwin jagger, and parker make some pretty good razors for a very modest price.

Also, considering how many Gillette's have cracked handles and tubes from the stamped brass parts, I would almost argue quality has improved as of late with affordable solid bar handles.

In a time where most things are built cheaper and cheaper to maximize profit, I find this refreshing honestly.
Never had a chance to try a Lie Nelson, and that is what I had in mind as I wrote. They sure do look nice. I have quite a few Stanley planes and only need a #8 to really round out the collection.
 
You might have said the same thing as I did, but you didn't use as flowery of a turn of fraze as I did my friend. You need to werk on yer common man English if you plan on having a future in DC like me my friend!
I would love to be able to say the same thing as you, the same way you say it.

Case in point:
It feels like I imagine an Angel's wings would feel wiping away a tear.

What a wordsmith!
 

musicman1951

three-tu-tu, three-tu-tu
If you work a lot of figured or exotic wood with hand tools, this may be of value to you as it can reduce the risk chatter and tear out when set up properly.

But, anyone who tells you a vintage Stanley is an inferior plane to a Lie Nielsen is just trying to justify the large amount of money they spent on a Lie Nielsen.

There is a reason Lie Nielsen copied Stanley.
You could make the same argument for razors. I have a handful of older Stanley planes and 4 Lie Nielsen planes. They adjust more accurately and stay tuned longer with a smoother feel for me. I'm sorry to have to tell you that your mind reading skills are not quite up to the level you assumed when you decided to explain what goes on in another persons mind - always a dangerous proposition, and one I avoid studiously.

Do you need a Lamborghini to drive to work, or is the family car good enough? Plenty of people are happy with their older Gillette razors and quite a few prefer them to anything else. An inflation calculator would put a Slim in the neighborhood of $55 or so if it were manufactured today. I don't think you can find a better value, and there is no razor that's actually ten times better, just like the Lambo isn't 15 times better than the family sedan. Use what you like and enjoy your shaves.
 
Another obvious enough point is that Gillette, through its long history, brought a massive and cumulative amount of R & D to the process, which can't be even approached by one or two guys with a CNC machine.

They tested tested tested tested, God knows how many thousands of hours on God knows how many faces. They filed reports, took surveys, ran trials over decades. They changed their models best suited, they believed, to what masses of people wanted, as these wants evolved over time (right into the disposable world of right now).

So when you're buying a Tech or a New Long Comb, you're buying a moment in time: a point when Glllette's massive corporate research decided that this is what most users wanted, that this would satisfy most customers.

So another way of putting the choice: you're weighing a boutique option, never intended for most faces and tested on only a handful of them, against a combination of mass appeal, massive R & D, and a moment in 20th-century time.
 
You could make the same argument for razors. I have a handful of older Stanley planes and 4 Lie Nielsen planes. They adjust more accurately and stay tuned longer with a smoother feel for me. I'm sorry to have to tell you that your mind reading skills are not quite up to the level you assumed when you decided to explain what goes on in another persons mind - always a dangerous proposition, and one I avoid studiously.

Do you need a Lamborghini to drive to work, or is the family car good enough? Plenty of people are happy with their older Gillette razors and quite a few prefer them to anything else. An inflation calculator would put a Slim in the neighborhood of $55 or so if it were manufactured today. I don't think you can find a better value, and there is no razor that's actually ten times better, just like the Lambo isn't 15 times better than the family sedan. Use what you like and enjoy your shaves.

I stand by what I said.

Not all vintage Stanley's are worth buying. They had periods in manufacturing where some were better than others. Stanley's are vintage tools, and so some were beaten to death and are plum wore out.

But if you read my first post, I said if you have a vintage Stanley that was not beat to snot and tuned properly, the difference in surface finish it leaves on the wood is negligible, and in my opinion is not worth the difference in price.

The post you quoted, I attempted to explain that someone may find value working exotic or highly figured woods with a lie Nielsen because of the way they are designed and the tighter manufacturing tolerances.

We can agree to disagree, and thinking about it I was a fool to assume everyone has the same standards I do, but there is no denying there is a very strong secondary market for antique Stanley planes because they are very good planes and a very good value.
 
Manufacturing has changed that much, as noted, scale is the most significant change. The razors of modern production (with a couple of notable exceptions) are "artisan," or small machine shop/single manufacturer. Truth be told, all any of us need is a single razor that checks boxes for comfort, cost and desired closeness of shave. Most modern razors are tuned to style vs. cost, with a margin of efficacy, and so overall numbers are comparatively low.

Our 90-120 year old razors may be beautiful, but they are a bare handful of exceptions. The vast majority were melted down for brass (pick your war) or are buried in old landfills. If you use your vintage daily, or every other day, assuming 30-40 years of use, your child/grandchild will have to have it plated to preserve the look, and brass certainly shows drops & dings, more than stainless.

+1! Great summary!!

The point is that it is tough to beat the shave quality provided by surviving vintage razors! Modern CNC is for folks like the B&B community of connoisseurs who enjoy artisan products! :a21::a21:
 

Phoenixkh

I shaved a fortune
You won't necessarily have a better shave. I can get a great shave out of an open comb Gillette old type, but the workmanship on a modern razor is just nice to see. It is somewhat similar to hand planes. I have a Stanley #5 that does a great job if I keep the iron sharp, but I sure wouldn't mind trying out one of the new modern planes.
I love my Stanley #5 Jack Plane... but I ended up buying two Lie-Nielson planes... a #5 1/2 and a Small Chisel Plane... they are beautiful, but functionally, the Stanley is a workhorse.

I have 7 or 8 Stanley 118 steel block planes including 4 NOS a guy had. They are still the best low angle block planes I've ever used.

For me, the key to a plane working the way it was designed is a hollow ground plane iron. There is nothing like it. Just sharpening on a stone isn't enough if you want them to work at their best. So I use a Tormek, sharpen on a stone to dress up the plane iron until they need another hollow ground edge. Same with chisels, in my view, at least.
 
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