Making Segal Blades

[Highspeedlane]

Cool. No hurry.

I wish I were decent with my photoshop-clone program, but I'm terrible at it. I need lessons from a teenager.

So after giving this some thought through the day then finally getting some blades in front of the camera, I see what the last major difference is between the Segal blade and the Gillette design, with respect to modification. The end tabs that position the blade are shaped differently. Here you can see how the Segal has just a tiny bit of metal removed at the indicated spot on the tabs, in comparison:

So this time instead of freehand, I did the Sharpie outline, and just ensured my cut fell completely outside the black line. The first attempt this afternoon went perfectly. As I mentioned, this may have already been obvious to others but I didn't "put two and two together" until this weekend.

Here is the loaded Segal blade:

I'm inclined to say it's not worth me trying to nip off that tiny bit of metal, only because it will be too easy to overcut and ruin a blade. Better for me to simply push these tabs down. They will flex up a bit, and you can see where I am wearing off metal from the razor at that point doing this:

But leaving them a tight, press down fit will still keep the side to side positioning integrity I believe, and be better for assuring blade alignment. I only have cut Personna blades but I would guess just about any other modern blade should be shaped nearly identically. If those tabs are evenly pressed so they both have approximately the same amount of side to side contact, all should align well. Much of what will make that easier would be to have the oval cut reasonably close to the correct size. An overly generous oval cutout could permit one tab to flex up while the other stays straighter, skewing the blade alignment.

So along that track I'm going to return to the Sharpie outline method. When I align the blades for marking I do so with the edges sitting on a piece of wax paper, to reduce the possibility of causing edge damage.

The things we do in the name of shaving.

 

[troy]

I had a very nice shave with mine this morning! I'm still on the first blade I modified an Astra SP. I haven't kept track of the shaves, but I would guess it to be around 20. It's showing it's age on the first pass, but still going strong no the next. Three days growth to DFS in 2 passes and a little cleanup.

When I cut the blade I just free handed it and used a pair of my daughters small scissors, not the best but they worked. I tried to use the "Chef Tony" Scissors from the infomercial years ago, but they wouldn't work at all. I thought they were supposed to be able to cut the muffler off my car.

 

[Highspeedlane]

I had a very nice shave with mine this morning! I'm still on the first blade I modified an Astra SP. I haven't kept track of the shaves, but I would guess it to be around 20. It's showing it's age on the first pass, but still going strong no the next. Three days growth to DFS in 2 passes and a little cleanup.

When I cut the blade I just free handed it and used a pair of my daughters small scissors, not the best but they worked. I tried to use the "Chef Tony" Scissors from the infomercial years ago, but they wouldn't work at all. I thought they were supposed to be able to cut the muffler off my car.
View attachment 891825

Well done Troy

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

I'm going to have to study all this more, and some other modern blades. It'll be a while (perhaps weeks) before I can do it justice.

What about nippers for that one little spot?

Later,

Jim

 

[Highspeedlane]

I'm going to have to study all this more, and some other modern blades. It'll be a while (perhaps weeks) before I can do it justice.

What about nippers for that one little spot?

Later,

Jim

I'm definitely going to try it. The trick will be not to remove metal from the high point, just from the down slope (if that makes sense), goal being to allow the blade to drop all the way down without having to be pushed into place. More to follow...

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

I'm definitely going to try it. The trick will be not to remove metal from the high point, just from the down slope (if that makes sense), goal being to allow the blade to drop all the way down without having to be pushed into place. More to follow...

Makes perfect sense.

 

[Highspeedlane]

Makes perfect sense.

So my recommendation is don't bother with nippers. I tried a brand new pair and they were simply unable to generate enough jaw pressure to cut away metal at the inner tab. I believe now that unless you can exert significant force using much greater leverage and hardened cutting teeth (not possible within the small working area of the Segal style blade), it will be futile. This is because the nippers are trying to cut a longer surface section at once and there just isn't enough free space to maneuver around effectively.

Better yet is to use the same cuticle scissors used to cut out the oval. These succeed because they start cutting at a small point then continue this splitting action until the cut is through to the end, similar to the process of cutting paper. Their narrower profile cutting jaws are also much easier to get inside that area for cutting.

By cutting away a portion of the down-slope of this tab but keeping the overall height it needs for positioning, the blade just drops right into position, no pressing down to seat the tabs. The TTO action now actually feels normal, same as a Segal blade! And side to side blade alignment looks completely normal.

Unknown at this point is how many blades can be cut before the cuticle scissors wear out. It is a pretty decent amount of pressure being applied and a fairly hard material. The pair I bought were not cheap ($20) but they work great, and I'm thinking it should cut a goodly number before having to be replaced. Being able to revive these old classics for use with modern blades is very cool.

So this was a very eventful endeavor, thank you Jim for bringing this about as a thread topic!

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

Lane, you did a fabulous job of making those blades. Yours look perfect.

Mine look terrible, and aren't trimmed on the downslope, but mine work okay. My next blades will be better although maybe not as pretty as yours. I'm considering getting the German fingernail scissors.

Happy shaves, with the Segal and without,

Jim

 

[Highspeedlane]

Lane, you did a fabulous job of making those blades. Yours look perfect.

Mine look terrible, and aren't trimmed on the downslope, but mine work okay. My next blades will be better although maybe not as pretty as yours. I'm considering getting the German fingernail scissors.

Happy shaves, with the Segal and without,

Jim

Thanks, same to you Jim!

 

[Highspeedlane]

Final thought on blade modification for the Segal.

When I close the TTO knob on an original .006" thick Segal blade there is a tiny bit of tension in the final close. Originally I didn't feel that with my modified modern blades. The TTO knob just closed almost as though there was no blade present. Now I know exactly why.

When a blade is in normal use in a razor it is tempered sufficiently to behave as a spring, placing upward tension against the cap. With new blades that are modified and don't duplicate the clearance Segal designed for their razor, the tabs of the blade at the very end of the blade's inner cut out press tightly against the razor and essentially hold the blade flat on the base plate.

Held in such a position, the blade is now unable to freely exert upward pressure against the cap. Clearing this portion of the tab on a new blade allows it freedom to compress and relax as the razor is opened and closed, so that even a .004" thick modern blade provides the proper closing tension.

It is not absolutely essential to have this spring behavior on a modified blade to get satisfactory shaves (normally the TTO knob holds with sufficient tension to stay put throughout the shave), it just ensures the razor will perform as close to original design as possible.

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

Final thought on blade modification for the Segal.

When I close the TTO knob on an original .006" thick Segal blade there is a tiny bit of tension in the final close. Originally I didn't feel that with my modified modern blades. The TTO knob just closed almost as though there was no blade present. Now I know exactly why.

When a blade is in normal use in a razor it is tempered sufficiently to behave as a spring, placing upward tension against the cap. With new blades that are modified and don't duplicate the clearance Segal designed for their razor, the tabs of the blade at the very end of the blade's inner cut out press tightly against the razor and essentially hold the blade flat on the base plate.

Held in such a position, the blade is now unable to freely exert upward pressure against the cap. Clearing this portion of the tab on a new blade allows it freedom to compress and relax as the razor is opened and closed, so that even a .004" thick modern blade provides the proper closing tension.

It is not absolutely essential to have this spring behavior on a modified blade to get satisfactory shaves (normally the TTO knob holds with sufficient tension to stay put throughout the shave), it just ensures the razor will perform as close to original design as possible.

Showing in even more detail the genius of Mr. Segal. What a cool thing to figure out, Lane.

I hope anyone and everyone modifying Segal blades and using the various Segal razors (Schaerffer, etc.) reads your posts in this thread, sir.

I'm still not entirely sure how you managed to cut your blades to so exactly match the Segal Blades and the curve of the raised area on the baseplate. The blades I hacked out work, but they look so clumsy compared to yours which look like finely crafted works of art.

I'm just going to blame my scissors and get a better pair.

Thank you.

Happy shaves,

Jim

 

[jmudrick]

There were in fact two Segal geniuses at work, as patents were granted to both Hyman aka H.R. Segal, and Samuel Segal. Whether brothers or father and son I know not.

Showing in even more detail the genius of Mr. Segal.

Jim

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

There were in fact two Segal geniuses at work, as patents were granted to both Hyman aka H.R. Segal, and Samuel Segal. Whether brothers or father and son I know not.

I know I've read about both of them, but I don't remember the relationship.

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

History of Segal. Link. Very interesting stuff. Many, many patents.

Wikipedia on Segal, link.

Samuel's death. Link.

 

[jmudrick]

Hyman was indeed Sam's brother and while he did have razor and packaging patents to his name, he apparently is better known as an author and poet.

History of Segal. Link. Very interesting stuff. Many, many patents.

Wikipedia on Segal, link.

Samuel's death. Link.

 

[Highspeedlane]

Showing in even more detail the genius of Mr. Segal. What a cool thing to figure out, Lane.

I hope anyone and everyone modifying Segal blades and using the various Segal razors (Schaerffer, etc.) reads your posts in this thread, sir.

I'm still not entirely sure how you managed to cut your blades to so exactly match the Segal Blades and the curve of the raised area on the baseplate. The blades I hacked out work, but they look so clumsy compared to yours which look like finely crafted works of art.

I'm just going to blame my scissors and get a better pair.

Thank you.

Happy shaves,

Jim

Thank you Jim, and thanks again for starting this very productive thread

 

[preidy]

Some where I read (can't remember) but a guy used a Dremel with a small grinder head to hollow out from the inside of the blade instead of cutting. He was able to make three at a time by taping the blades together. I still cut them but when I run out of my small stash I may try this technique. By the way I love my Segal.

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

Some where I read (can't remember) but a guy used a Dremel with a small grinder head to hollow out from the inside of the blade instead of cutting. He was able to make three at a time by taping the blades together. I still cut them but when I run out of my small stash I may try this technique. By the way I love my Segal.

Sounds like a great plan for someone who is skilled with the Dremel. I might look into it. I'm very far from skilled but capable of learning.

Good idea.

Happy shaves,

Jim

 

[Highspeedlane]

Some where I read (can't remember) but a guy used a Dremel with a small grinder head to hollow out from the inside of the blade instead of cutting. He was able to make three at a time by taping the blades together. I still cut them but when I run out of my small stash I may try this technique. By the way I love my Segal.

Interesting post Preidy, as that was exactly what I used yesterday! Some thoughts on this.

I have used Dremel's for many years and in many applications and what caused me to try this yesterday was after I had cut a 7o'clock Super Stainless my cut was a little too tight for the blade to sit properly on the baseplate. When I've finished modifying a blade I like to see it drop right down onto the baseplate with only the action of the TTO knob being used to seat it and without binding, exactly as a Segal blade would.

This permits the blade to compress and relax as designed. When a cut is too tight it's difficult to snip away the small amounts of additional material neatly. When working with .004" thick stainless steel and trying to open up a tight cut, the scissors usually dig too deeply resulting in gouges and a jagged, irregular surface. I decided rather than pitching the blade I would grab the Dremel along with a chainsaw sharpening stone, and gently relieve the tight areas until the blade dropped right into position. It was not much at all that had to be removed.

Well, it worked perfectly. In no time the blade sat where it should, ready for shaving.

Despite advice to the contrary, I personally would be hesitant to use the Dremel from start to finish for this purpose at least from where I sit now. For one, you really want to be careful you don't overheat the blade and alter the temper of the steel. If that's not an obstacle, my other concern would be just safety related. Due to the duration of time you're working with the blade you will want to take every precaution to avoid binding the bit against the metal and creating a cutting hazard.

At this point in time at least, using scissors to remove the bulk of the material and final fitting (if necessary) with a Dremel, is a very good idea. Just be safe if you do!

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

Interesting post Preidy, as that was exactly what I used yesterday! Some thoughts on this.

I have used Dremel's for many years and in many applications and what caused me to try this yesterday was after I had cut a 7o'clock Super Stainless my cut was a little too tight for the blade to sit properly on the baseplate. When I've finished modifying a blade I like to see it drop right down onto the baseplate with only the action of the TTO knob being used to seat it and without binding, exactly as a Segal blade would.

This permits the blade to compress and relax as designed. When a cut is too tight it's difficult to snip away the small amounts of additional material neatly. When working with .004" thick stainless steel and trying to open up a tight cut, the scissors usually dig too deeply resulting in gouges and a jagged, irregular surface. I decided rather than pitching the blade I would grab the Dremel along with a chainsaw sharpening stone, and gently relieve the tight areas until the blade dropped right into position. It was not much at all that had to be removed.

Well, it worked perfectly. In no time the blade sat where it should, ready for shaving.

Despite advice to the contrary, I personally would be hesitant to use the Dremel from start to finish for this purpose at least from where I sit now. For one, you really want to be careful you don't overheat the blade and alter the temper of the steel. If that's not an obstacle, my other concern would be just safety related. Due to the duration of time you're working with the blade you will want to take every precaution to avoid binding the bit against the metal and creating a cutting hazard.

At this point in time at least, using scissors to remove the bulk of the material and final fitting (if necessary) with a Dremel, is a very good idea. Just be safe if you do!

What did you use to hold the blade while you used the Dremel. Obviously it needs to be secure and also not damage the cutting surface.

I agree. Cut away the bulk of the metal (easy enough with the right scissors) and finish with the Dremel. Not that I know for sure, but it makes sense to me for the reasons you mentioned, and it should be easier, too.

Happy shaves,

Jim