Lying to Customs?

[AJS]

Ever since I started wet shaving I have had a number of packages stopped by Customs and Excise, who have then added prohibitive charges onto my goods. I always figured that this was inevitable for some packages and thanked Allah/ Buddah/ God when they got through unnoticed. However, during my time here and reading on other forums, I have noticed that often a vendor is prepared to underestimate the value of a package so the recipient can avoid charges.
My question is, how common a practice is this? Being a scrupulously honest person the idea did trouble me, but the mercenary price gouging employed by Customs has gone too far. A man can only be pushed so much.
Also, I would be unsure how to broach this subject with a seller. Is it really just okay to ask for this to be done?
Finally, are there any legal ramifications? I would be loathe to do this if the original merchant would find themselves in any sort of legal trouble. Particularly after they had gone out on a limb for me.
Any advice, as always, will be most welcome.

 

[ada8356]

While I have never done it in your situation, I do know that it is a very common practice when dealing with import duties, clearing fees, and the such.

I wouldn't phrase it as lying... just maybe de-valuing your products! Maybe you don't value your goods the same as someone else... at least for tax purposes!

 

[Jonnybc]

You have to persuede the seller to under estimate the value of the item so strictly speaking it's not you that's lying to customs it's the seller. This isn't too much of a problem with individuals selling on Ebay but shops and eretailers hay have a harder time, they need to be honest to maintain their business apparently the repercussions are considerable for them. You should also consider that the declared value of the contents of a package is all it's insured for, if it goes missing you will definitely lose out.

 

[Suzuki]

I often ask suppliers if they use "customs friendly" procedures - I never argue if they don't, but many do.

Another loophole that may exist in the UK is the "gift" limits - for example, in Canada, if I order something for myself, the limit before duties is $20 - not very much, but if I send it to my colleague down the hall as a "gift" the exemption increases to $60.

HM Customs may have similar types of loopholes that are more palatable to certain vendors than understating value.

As a rule, I deal with people who know how to play the game - especially since customs officials generally have no idea what shaving gear is worth - soaps, brushes, razors - all seem like drugstore type stuff unless you know a Kent from a Burma.

Just my two cents - good luck.

 

[letterk]

I've placed a few orders from the UK from two different vendors. Both have vastly underestimated the value of the products. I never asked them to do it so I never thought much of it.

 

[AJS]

Thanks Suzuki, a similiar loophole does exist in UK Customs laws but the amounts are so ridiculously low that it wouldn't really make any difference, even on fairly moderate orders. Still it is an avenue worth exploring further so thanks for the advice.
The thing that annoys me the most though, is the fact that Customs add the 17.5% VAT charge onto the cost of shipping as well, so I am paying tax not only on the item/s in question but the carriage as well. Also, when a package does get intercepted, you have to pay the Royal Mail for collecting it for you

 

[jmhUT]

I don't really see the harm in asking a seller to underestimate value. I subscribe to the "new car" philosophy that an item's worth is substantially decreased by its first use. Plus, who's to say the product isn't dried out or was purchased at a rock bottom clearance sale. Worth is subjective IMO. They are going to revalue everything based on their own internal guidelines anyway.
Cheers,
Jeff

 

[english_barber]

Hi Alex,

You must never lie to Customs and Excise! If you use a regular postal service such as Royal Mail, duties are only ever charged to the recipient when shipping to Canada. Usally goods imported via the Royal Mail also pass under the radar.

Use FedEx, UPS etc and watch those duties mount up...

Regards, Robert

 

[Rik]

I wouldn't encourage falsifying records to reduce duty charges. It's no different than cheating on your income taxes - eventually you'll get caught.

 

[bigDee]

I wouldn't encourage falsifying records to reduce duty charges. It's no different than cheating on your income taxes - eventually you'll get caught.

Not rly. You can't even compare.

 

[AJS]

Hi Alex,

You must never lie to Customs and Excise! If you use a regular postal service such as Royal Mail, duties are only ever charged to the recipient when shipping to Canada. Usally goods imported via the Royal Mail also pass under the radar.

Use FedEx, UPS etc and watch those duties mount up...

Regards, Robert

It's interesting that you mention FedEx, they are the one company whose packages have never received additional charges when shipping to me.
Once again, what troubles me most is that the Customs and Exise people charge me VAT on the shipping and handling, they don't bother to make the distiction between the total value of the package including carriage and the value of the item on its own. Also, when a parcel is stopped it adds at least 7-10 days on to the time it takes to get the package, I think that that length of time is totally unacceptable; I had an order from Classic Shaving take over 4 weeks to reach me.
I assumed that this practice was common place, and I have had a number of merchants offer to undervalue their items, it's just typical of me to over analyse everything and try to apply a moral context where one doesn't exist. Still, if the original seller could get in trouble for doing it, I wont ask them to under value my orders (damn, damn, damn, damn, damn)
Thanks for the replies everyone.

 

[jmhUT]

Not rly. You can't even compare.

I'm gonna have to go with Bigdee on this one. I would not wish the IRS on my worst enemy. That is arguing risk /reward though, while Alex's question is one of morality. From this perspective Rik's point is well taken. Very good post though, we could spend the rest of the month arguing the philosophical merits of either point of view.
Cheers,
Jeff

 

[madmedic]

I usually have packages delivered to my place of work. On a couple of occasions the Postman has just left them at reception and not waited to collect his pound of flesh!

Brian

 

[ladyintheroom]

Perhaps asking the seller to list the wholesale value would help. The number is accurate and may save you on the import fees.
Of course this may encourage buying in wholesale volumes to get a better price. Hmmm...forget I mentioned it.
J

 

[Tony Miller]

I get asked to claim less tyhan actual sale value on my strops and sets quite often. It is though against the law to falsify values on Customs Declarations and I politely refuse. As a business owner I need to keep records and having numbers not add up at audit time is never good.

I am puzzled though by UK buyers having VAT added to shipping costs. On the US Postal Service Customs Declaration forums one is supposed to declare the actual value of the goods and the shipping cost itself does not appear on the multipart declaration forum unless your seller puts it on as part of the actual costs of the goods. It is though on the package itself so if they are using that figure the VAT people are stretching the limits a bit.

Undervaluing shipments is an issue at insurance time to if a package gets lost or damaged. One needs to provide proof of actual purchase price of the goods. You buy a $130 shaving set, I buy $130 worth of insurance, claim the package is worth $60 for Customs and when it gets lost and none of the paperwork adds up someone (me probably) gets in trouble <g>.

I try to live my life by playing by the rules. Things go easier that way as there is only one story to remember.......the real one <g>

Tony Miller

 

[jmhUT]

I get asked to claim less tyhan actual sale value on my strops and sets quite often. It is though against the law to falsify values on Customs Declarations and I politely refuse. As a business owner I need to keep records and having numbers not add up at audit time is never good.

I am puzzled though by UK buyers having VAT added to shipping costs. On the US Postal Service Customs Declaration forums one is supposed to declare the actual value of the goods and the shipping cost itself does not appear on the multipart declaration forum unless your seller puts it on as part of the actual costs of the goods. It is though on the package itself so if they are using that figure the VAT people are stretching the limits a bit.

Undervaluing shipments is an issue at insurance time to if a package gets lost or damaged. One needs to provide proof of actual purchase price of the goods. You buy a $130 shaving set, I buy $130 worth of insurance, claim the package is worth $60 for Customs and when it gets lost and none of the paperwork adds up someone (me probably) gets in trouble <g>.

I try to live my life by playing by the rules. Things go easier that way as there is only one story to remember.......the real one <g>

Tony Miller

A very good point. I would never ask a merchant to do this.

 

[rtaylor61]

Just remember that when you ask a seller to "lie" or to under value items, you are asking them to adjust their ethics.

Randy

 

[jmhUT]

I don't disagree on any particular point here but I think there is a difference between "lying" to avoid substantial customs duties and being conservative in one's estimate of a used item. The worth of used items in particular is quite subjective IMO. When one buy's something new it is difficult to argue that the value is something other than what was paid as the act of buying itself determines value. One could argue the same for a used item but the matter is much less cut and dry IMO.

For example, if I ship partially full tubes of creams to a member in Canada for $30 paid by Paypal and I pay $11.50 for S&H and another $1 and change in PayPal fees I am going to declare an amount below the $30 paid without being asked (how is that for a run-on sentence?). If that member requests that I declare $15 that is close enough to my estimate of actual value. Similarly, If a vendor agrees to repair a brush of mine and instructs me to declare the item as worthless for the return shipment I am not going to quibble. There are several arguments I could employ to back the claim that the item was without worth despite the fact that one could reasonably argue that if it was repairable then there was some residual value.

That being said, this is admitedly a sensitive area. I personally have not asked senders to underestimate value but I have been conservative in my estimates of a USED item's worth on a recipient's behalf. I do not consider this to be dishonest or unethical. I gained nothing by doing so and can reasonably defend each instance. I would not venture the same opinion about a new item purchased from a merchant but let's keep what we are talking about in perspective here. Very small dollar amounts.

Anyway, like I said I don't disagree with any particular point. If you think you may be asking for somethigng inappropriate then chances are the seller will think so too. Let's just be careful with the strong verbs. I really do think this is a good thread.
Cheers,
Jeff

 

[Wolfman]

The couple of times I've shipped to Canada after an eBay sale, I would list them as a gift. I'd also include --with purchasers knowledge-- a birthday card that said something like "Happy Birthday Jimmy!".

So long as you're not trying to skip out on thousands of dollars in taxes, I see no real harm in trying. Case in point; In CA we have a law that requires that we list our out-of-state and various other internet purchases on our tax forms. I used to always buy my smokes and still do purchase my cigars from internet suppliers. Sorry state, I'm not going to list these things.

 

[Jonnybc]

Alex

You should factor in the customs costs when you make your purchase. You have enough experience with the anount of orders you make from the US to know exactly how much you'll end up being charged. another thought is that the &#163; is pretty strong against the $ at the moment, this gives us a pretty big discount anyway.