Looking into building a small forge

[Dilbone]

So I've been kicking the idea around for quite some time now and just haven't committed to it yet.

The intent is to be able to produce a few knives and/or try my hand at a razor as well. I'm not looking for anything pro...don't even have an anvil/anvil shaped object procured yet let alone tongs, hammers, or anything else I will need.

As I continue to kick around the idea of dipping my toe into this hobby I have seen everything from coffee can/paint can/freon bottle/propane tank/etc. forges and I'm just not sure what would be the best option for having a smaller level of investment into it without having to build forge #2 within the first few uses because I started to small to begin with.

Knowing me, I am pretty confident that this will be a hobby that I jump in with both feet pretty quickly...I thought it would be cool to build a guitar from a kit...evolved quickly into a shop full of guitar building equipment to produce them from scratch out of scrap lumber...I wanted a "bobber" style motorcycle and so I bought a beater and chopped it to build myself a bobber from the ground up. So I can see this being something that a "coffee can" forge just won't cut it pretty quickly for me, but how big is too big as I also tend to cool off on certain hobbies after a while...trying to find some balance and not go off the deep end on this one.

I have a 20lb propane tank I was initially thinking of using but that seems too big for just doing an occasional knife/razor for fun.
I have also looked at using kaowool, satanite, and matrikote 90 regardless of which "shell" I start with. I also figure I'll build either a single or double burner from some of the many plans out there depending on the size of forge I'm going with.

I guess my question is, for any of you that have gone down this path, what would you do differently knowing what you know now to make sure you didn't start too small or too big. What size is a good start that won't be outgrown immediately, which products have you found to be more effective in your forge builds?

I've done a ton of reading over the past few weeks and have seen so many opinions it's hard to even keep it all straight...so now I'm asking for more opinions...lol but from a razor perspective not just a general use/knife perspective.

Thanks in advance.

 

[ajduplessis]

I would do an apprenticeship with a knife/razor maker. This will give you insight into the entire process and tools required. You would then be in a better position to make any further investments choices wrt tools. The forge is just a small part of the entire investment to consider.

I would rather consider giving the heat treatment process to a smith with all the tools and knowledge. That would allow you to use al types of steel without the trail/error with heat treatments.

Just some thoughts...

 

[Dilbone]

I would do an apprenticeship with a knife/razor maker. This will give you insight into the entire process and tools required. You would then be in a better position to make any further investments choices wrt tools. The forge is just a small part of the entire investment to consider.

I would rather consider giving the heat treatment process to a smith with all the tools and knowledge. That would allow you to use al types of steel without the trail/error with heat treatments.

Just some thoughts...

Good thoughts, thank you for sharing.
I do know of a fella locally here that I could probably contact about some guidance in that regard...I'm just so used to muddling along myself by trial, error, and internet in most of my endeavors that an apprenticeship seems like more of a time commitment than I am looking for...which makes me second guess even attempting any of this in the first place.

 

[Slash McCoy]

If you can find an experienced smith to take you under his wing, your learning process will leave a lot less ruined steel in its wake and a lot less time spent on projects that failed. Of course if the challenge is what compels you, then shortcuts might not be what you are really after.

The most critical part of making a razor or a knife is the heat treating. There are guys who will do your HT for you, for a price usually.

Forming the blade can be through forging, or stock removal, or a combination of both. Forging wastes less steel and of course uses less abrasives. Stock removal is precise but at the same time flexible.

The process of forming the blade breaks down into two sections: before HT, and after. After HT, the steel is of course very hard, and you will want to keep the blade temp down below 300f so as to not over temper and end up with a soft blade. Once the steel is ground to below a certain thickness, it becomes impossible to HT again. So you do most of the heavy grinding before HT while the steel is in its annealed state, and leave the blade's thin part above a set thickness. After HT, final thinning and beveling is done, and with the heavy grinding already done, the process goes much faster.

The hard way to make a blade but at the same time the most simple, is to start out with hardened steel and grind off all the steel that is not a blade. At one time it was common to repurpose worn out files for this, and I have seen some dandy knives and even a couple of razors made this way. Unfortunately now, most files are only case hardened, and the inner steel is just unhardened, mild steel. Antique American or English files are your best bet for this. Small knives can be ground out of old saw blades. Some are okay. Most new blades don't seem to work very well. You can also make your bones by regrinding a batch of Gold Dollar 66 razors. If you really go all out, it is a whole new razor when you are done. Grinding away the stabilizer and shoulder is only the beginning, if you are going all out. Then you will want to thin and reprofile the spine, and thin the blade slightly. Maybe reprofile the nose into a French point to match the new thumb notch curve. Thin the shank so that it is thinner than the spine and cannot form a shoulder. Sand, polish. New scales. Wa-lah. A whole new razor that with a Method edge, is an amazing shaver. Lots of very time consuming work with belt sander, dremel, and hand sanding. You will ruin a few. Don't cry too long over a $4 razor, though. Just make sure you get them at the cheapest price possible, and do them in batches. This will give you a lot of practice grinding steel. You will shatter a few. You will overheat a lot of them. Eventually you will find yourself holding a work of art in your hand that you are almost afraid to shave with out of fear of the edge. The steel of course comes hardened and it is not bad steel. Bar stock costs almost as much as a GD 66. And you can enter your creation in the annual GD modification competition.

Eventually you will still need/want a forge, yeah. If you have a barbecue pit or even a charcoal grill, you sort of already have one. You might be surprised how hot a charcoal fire gets when you introduce a forced draft. This can be as simple as a 10' steel pipe with a hair dryer duck taped to one end and the other end in the coal bed. Talk about instant gratification! If you want to try HT yourself the primitive way, heat the steel to bright red and test with a magnet. If it sticks, it is not ready to quench. If it stops sticking to the magnet, give it another half hour or so and then quench. Most commonly used quench method is oil. Usually it is heated to 110f or higher. Very likely the oil will catch fire when you quench. For this reason welding gloves and sleeves are the minimum acceptable protection. Most guys use a full jacket or apron. Face shield, too. Don't freak out if it catches fire. Move the blade around with your tongs and take it out or leave it in, but do one or the other, and cover your oil to extinguish the flames. You probably won't get it right first time around. And no it is not actually that simple. Read and study and take note of all the details. The quenched blade will be very brittle so you will need to temper. This can be done in the home shop in a toaster oven. Select your tempering temp and set the thermostat et walah. You can also use your forge or a propane torch if you are very careful and have a good eye for color change.

Lots of guys start with a coffee can gas forge and never move up from that. They are actually pretty efficient. You might drop $1k to $2k on an electric kiln. Having a thermostat, timer, and programming ability is a tremendous luxury. If you will make large knives, be sure you get one big enough. You will probably want a 240v circuit to power it, so if you live where standard voltage is 110 then you may need an electrician to wire up a circuit in your shop. You will probably want a 30a circuit. There are a few kilns that will work for you that hook up to a single 120v 30a circuit.

After HT you do your final grinding. All the parts that you wanted thinner but did not dare have too thin for the quench, are now thinned. Any warpage is corrected by grinding. Remember it only takes a few seconds to overheat the blade where it is thin! This is a good reason to do a few Gold Dollars first, so you really see how quickly the Blue Stain of Death appears. You will not believe your eyes the first time. It will happen so fast that you will never notice the blade go through the yellow stages. It will quickly flash to blue and then the razor is toast. Thick steel can be processed again. If it is too thin already, it will warp, crack, even shatter when it hits the quench oil.

There is an awful lot to learn on the path to a usable razor from scratch. Lucky for you and for me there are a lot of study resources out there to guide you so the process only takes months instead of a lifetime. If you pay close attention to the masters of the craft you could get a useful blade on your first attempt, but I would not bank on it.

 

[Dilbone]

Thanks for the thoughtful reply Slash. I've done more than a few gold dollars over the past few years and feel like I'm ready to go further into the razor creating...or knife first then maybe razor if I feel like I'm making some progress.

I certainly don't have any delusions of producing something useable right out of the gate, but would love to try my hand at making something that works...more or less just to say I did. I make my own shave soap, roast my own coffee, brew my own beer...I'd love to be able to add making my own knife/razor to the list of things I've tried.

I was even looking up belt sanders and possible build designs and ideas...it's like I have this inner drive to do it myself if there's any way possible.

Yeah, the HT is what I know least about at this point in terms of colors, temps, and steel types. I have a lot more reading to do before I make a decision on how to proceed...or even what my first step will be.

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