Looking for some honing advice.

[Mr_Spiffy]

I'm hoping that all of you wonderful folks here on B&B can give me a little advice to help with my honing skills. I'm very new to honing, but I believe I understand the basics of x-strokes, maintaining even pressure (or little pressure), and making sure the entire bevel makes contact with the hone. I currently use a Naniwa Superstone 1K for bevel-setting, and then move to films for the rest, all the way to 1u film. My strop is a cheap strip of leather, but it's worked fine for me when I use my Whipped Dog hollow-ground razor, so that can't possibly be the real issue here.

Here's the razor in question:


It's a straight that I restored from the ground up. I made scales, polished up the blade, pinned it, and then tried my hand at honing this razor to a shave-ready state. However, I've had some real difficulty in getting it sharpened. I do manage to get the heel pretty sharp. And the blade does shave arm hair relatively well. It just doesn't slice through facial hair well enough to be comfortable. It tugs and pulls, and it feels like it's scraping rather than shaving.

Now, when I tried honing it again yesterday, I took my loupe out and found a couple of small chips or dings on the edge. I honed on my 1K until I no longer saw these issues, and then progressed with 30-40 strokes on each film. I use the Sharpie trick to make sure my edge makes good contact each time I switch films. And I always ensure that no bubbles or debris are underneath the film when I begin honing.

This razor does have another issue, though. And it's an issue that I think is really preventing me from making this thing shave-ready. It has a slight curve to the spine. If you lay the razor flat against a hone as if you're going to sharpen it, you'll see that on one side it cups upward to show daylight on either end, and on the other side it cups downward so you can see daylight under the center of the edge. I've tried to counteract this by making sure my x-strokes have just a touch of downward movement off the side of the hone, making sure I'm catching that concave center area as I go. I just don't know if it's helping, or if I'm doing something wrong. I also notice that the point doesn't make contact on the convex side without a little help. So, I usually have to add just a little twisting action at the end of my strokes to make sure the tip touches the hone. Perhaps this is killing my edge?

Is there another trick to honing a curved razor like this one? What else can I do to make this thing ready to go? Any advice here would be extremely appreciated.

EDIT: Just for good measure, I took a stab at measuring my bevel angle to make sure it wasn't too wide. Unfortunately, I don't have any calipers, so I measured as best I could using a tape measure with 1/32 markings on it. Bevel angle worked out to be roughly 15.8° without tape. (I don't hone with tape, at this point.)

 

[buca3152]

I would lay the blade on the hone heel first. Raise the toe slightly(part of the spine stays on the hone at all times) and rock it gently starting from the heel and rocking it till you make contact with whole edge. since you are using film, make sure you are careful not to tear it. Or you can cut the film narow and use a narrow tile which would make it easier to hit all parts of the blade. Sounds like you need a different stroke on each side.

 

[Mr_Spiffy]

I do pretty much have to do that to ensure that the entire convex edge touches the hone. Using the Sharpie marker trick, I've tried to pay attention to making good contact with the entire bevel along the hone. It seems to work, as the marker is removed with only one or two passes on the hone. The edge just doesn't seem to get sharp.

My guess is that I need to do something on the other side of the blade, the concave side. There must be something I'm not doing, or some kind of trick to ensure that the edge gets sharpened, but not damaged, when sharpening that side of the blade.

 

[buca3152]

I would dull the edge completely on the edge of a glass and start over. Im not telling you what you should do, but that's what I would do and use the thumbnail to monitor the progress along the edge to see where its grabbing and where its not and adjust the stroke.

 

[Mr_Spiffy]

Thanks, buca. I may just do that. If nothing else, I get more practice.

I've read somewhere that it can help having a narrower hone for dealing with curved blades, like this one. Have you found that to be true, in your experience? Seems like it, from your previous reply. Any advice when using a narrow hone?

 

[buca3152]

You can use half of the honing surface and its the same thing. Draw a line in the middle with a pencil in your bevel setter and stay on one side only. It works the same as a narrow hone unless the blade is very warped and cant make contact at all. I use my hones on their side but it happens very rarely that I have to.

 

[Brooksie967]

Rolling X stroke:

 

[Mr_Spiffy]

Brooksie, that's an excellent video for dealing with the convex side of the blade. What about the concave side? It seems you'd almost do the exact opposite, but along the edge of the hone..?

 

[Brooksie967]

Can you capture pictures of the problem. It sounds like the blade is warped.

 

[Slash McCoy]

What I would do is hone it flat. You need to tame that blade, not pamper and coddle it. Only with extremely warped blades can you not do this with success. The swayback spine is not an issue. The side to side displacement is. The nice thing is that the bevel angle is fairly skinny so you can do heavy work on it and not worry too much about it getting too fat if you have to take a lot of steel from the edge.

Just for an experiment you might hit it with the sharpie and take a couple of flat strokes on your finisher and see how bad it really is. Skinny hones, rolling x strokes, stuff like that, only make it worse in mild cases like yours. Those are techniques for smiling razors or lost causes. Your edge is nearly straight and was meant to be straight.

Just my two centavos. YMMV.

 

[Mr_Spiffy]

I'll try to take a photo of the bevel with sharpie on it for you guys to show how bad the issue is. Hopefully it's pretty straightforward, which it sounds like it might be. It just may take a while to hone it straight.

I do have one razor with a slight smile on it that's also been difficult to get sharp. I have a feeling that the rolling x-strokes are not exactly something a honing novice should be attempting, yet. It "shaves", but not well enough to be smooth. But that's a whole other conversation...

 

[Mr_Spiffy]

Actually, just found some photos that I had taken a little while back of this issue. Here's one showing light under the cupped side of the razor. You can really see how much curve there is to the blade on the other side. The cupped side doesn't look too bad, but the convex side..? That has some serious curve around the heel area, it appears.

 

[Slash McCoy]

I'll try to take a photo of the bevel with sharpie on it for you guys to show how bad the issue is. Hopefully it's pretty straightforward, which it sounds like it might be. It just may take a while to hone it straight.

I do have one razor with a slight smile on it that's also been difficult to get sharp. I have a feeling that the rolling x-strokes are not exactly something a honing novice should be attempting, yet. It "shaves", but not well enough to be smooth. But that's a whole other conversation...

Well there is a big difference between a slight smile and a big smile that is designed into the razor. The old Wade and Butcher choppers, for instance, were usually meant to be smileys, and a lot of guys really like them. They must be honed with rolling x strokes. Trying to straighten one out is not gonna be very practical and you definitely better figure on ruining any resale value. A lot of slightly smiling razors, though, started out as straight edges and the smiles got honed into them by sloppy honing practices. I like to put them to rights, when practical. But rolling x-strokes can be learned. Don't fear that technique. Just reserve it for when you need it. Too often, the "rolling" part gets out of hand, and that of course just makes the smile bigger, and takes the blade even further away from where it can simply be flat-honed. Your personal preferences are actually going to be the biggest factor, once you understand the consequences and are familiar and practiced with the rolling x. You might want to find a big old smiley on the bay to practice on. But that's not much to do with the blade you are concerned with at the moment. I do think flat honing and not giving up until you have a perfect bevel are the ticket to a great shave from this razor. Don't be alarmed if the bevel flat varies wildly in width from side to side and from end to end. As long as you can get an edge, you are good to go.

 

[Mr_Spiffy]

So, once I have a bevel going on the cupped side, how can I ensure that I match that bevel on the convex side? I'm concerned that the curve of the blade may start throwing the edge out of whack again as I'm honing. Or is it easy enough to just keep the edge flat on the hone and that side will be fine? (I'm guessing I'll have a flat area in the center of the spine?)

Do I keep finger pressure near the edge to prevent the blade from rolling as I hone?

 

[Slash McCoy]

Oh I just saw the pic. Yeah that is a serious warp. You may have to give up on flat honing that one, or relegating it to the junk box, or knocking off the heel and nose to make a shorty. With the heel and toe gone, you would have a better chance of keeping your edge within the limits of the razor. Me, I would give up on it cause I have too many other razors I can hone or restore that don't have crippling issues. A narrow hone might give you the results you want on the cupped side but it is a tricky hit or miss thing and even when you get it right, you got to keep getting it right every time you do a touchup. Forget about maintaining by stropping on pasted balsa. Unless you keep a dedicated narrow balsa just for that razor.

If you ever get great, consistent shaves from that razor, it will be a testament to your stubbornness, attention to detail, and plain good luck. Just sayin.

 

[Brooksie967]

As I thought from reading your description, the razor has a pretty terrible warp to it (slash never gives me credit for anything, jerk lol).

Listen to slash's advice, he's a smartypants

 

[Mr_Spiffy]

LOL... well, I'm glad it's not just me. It's a bit disappointing that the blade will likely be a lost cause... It was my first restoration, and while the scales didn't turn out perfectly, I'm proud of how they turned out.

Oh, well. Just means I'll get more practice in the future making scales and learning to hone.

Thanks, everyone! I know some of these honing issues can be tricky. So, thanks for helping me sort through it. And it's always an honor to have honemeister Slash giving advice!

On that note... anyone want a warped razor..?

 

[Brooksie967]

Put the scales on another razor they are beautiful! !

 

[Mr_Spiffy]

Well, one of the issues that I discovered with those scales is that the blade closes to the point where, if you're not careful, you can actually touch the edge on the other side of the scales where the finger holds are. (Jimps..? On scales..?? I dunno, whatever you wanna call them.) I didn't make the scales wide enough to really cover enough of the blade. So, they're kind of a safety hazard, really. Unless I find a narrower blade (4/8 or less, probably), I would be concerned about someone cutting themselves while handling the razor, even when it's closed.

The other thing is that the wedge is glued in, so that may make it difficult to make everything align properly with a new blade. I know you can get things to line up when you're pinning the blade in, but it might be difficult since I originally did this for a warped razor.

Excuses, I know! But, this is the only razor I've made scales for or pinned, as well as tried restoring the blade from scratch. So... n00b alert! My confidence with this stuff is still pretty low.

 

[Steve56]

If you decide to reuse the scales, why not put a third pin in them at the tang to stop the blade and hold it up a bit. Shouldn't be too hard? I always liked the idea of holding the blade up out of the scales a tiny bit to allow air circulation and prevent condensation at the point the blade hits the scales. How many vintage razors have you seen with a dark corrosion line at the end where the blade rested against the scales?

Cheers, Steve