Looking for new progression stones

[Ravenonrock]

It is tempting to want to try something new, but sticking with something tried and true has its advantages also. I'm new to honing, so sticking with one maker allowed me to be more confident in the gaps in the progression. 1,3,8,12 was my starting setup. Recently added a 5k and considering 10K. Just for my own amusement and observing different razors coming off different stones, if I can alter the final results. Starting to read more about natural stones now. Curiosity killed the cat.

 

[JohnEzra]

Yeah, sharpeningsupplies.com is having a sale now, so looking at 3k, 8k, 12k naniwa, double thick S2 superstones.

nanis and nortons are what I have always used, so wanted to take advantage of the recent loss of my nani12 to try something new, like Shaptons.

But Shaptons only go up to 10, and that's only ANSI, so more like 8 on JIS. A nani 12 is 12 JIS, which is the step I need to jump to balsa.

I could get shapton 3 HR, 8 HC and a nani 12. That would do it.

But advantage of using the same brand all the way is that you know the distances between the stages are what they are. With the Shaptons I'm just guessing and I might have some jumps that are too small and some jumps that are too large.

Hmmm. Still not quite there yet.

The Shapton Pros/Ha No Kuromaku go up to 30k as do the Shapton glass stones.

 

[kohalajohn]

The shapton glass do have a 30k, but they don't have a full progression to 12k, which is what I am looking for.

The Kuromaku, however, you're right, they do have 2, 5, 8, 12, which is nice.

I haven't seen anybody talking about Kuromaku, however. Can anybody tell me what these are? Are they different from the glass ones in other than name and packaging?

 

[njtnjt]

After this combo, Steve finishes on a jnat. My finisher is a black ark. Do you think I could jump from the 6k HC to finish on the black ark?

I finish on a JNat after the 6k as well. Best edges I have ever gotten are from this trio combo of stones.
Ive never had a problem finishing on the JNat after the 6k. I get stunning great edges. I don’t know how and ark compares to a JNat in terms of cutting and polishing power. I do know my JNat is a fast and very fine polisher. An early example of a hoard stone from Alex that I bought in 2014.
Maybe somebody else can weigh in with a rough comparison of JNat vs Ark cutting and polishing abilities.

 

[kohalajohn]

Njtnjt, was there much of a learning curve with the jnat?

I've held off getting a jnat as I read about members struggling to learn how much slurry to create, how to create it, how to water things down as you progress, and so on.

I am curious about it though. And now is the time to figure things out, as I'm shopping for rocks.

 

[Steve56]

The shapton glass do have a 30k, but they don't have a full progression to 12k, which is what I am looking for.

Huh?

 

[Steve56]

The kutomaku/Shapton Pro are a ceramic based stone. I used them for years, and still have a 2k, 5k, and 8k. But the HR Glass Stones are faster, have a closer grit distribution (less coarse grit in any given stone), and of course cost a bit more.

SHAPTON Co., Ltd | SHARPEN YOUR LIFE

This is the Official Website of SHAPTON Co., Ltd. Shapton manufactures sharpening stones as the main products that are "Sharpens Faster" , " Ready to Sharpen Immediately", "Reduced Wear" and "Variety of Stone Types" in features. We also produce lapping plates and other accesories related to...

shapton.co.jp

 

[kohalajohn]

The kutomaku/Shapton Pro are a ceramic based stone. I used them for years, and still have a 2k, 5k, and 8k. But the HR Glass Stones are faster, have a closer grit distribution (less coarse grit in any given stone), and of course cost a bit more.

SHAPTON Co., Ltd | SHARPEN YOUR LIFE

This is the Official Website of SHAPTON Co., Ltd. Shapton manufactures sharpening stones as the main products that are "Sharpens Faster" , " Ready to Sharpen Immediately", "Reduced Wear" and "Variety of Stone Types" in features. We also produce lapping plates and other accesories related to...

shapton.co.jp

ah. makes sense.

 

[kohalajohn]

Huh?

View attachment 1210676

yeah, that's what I'm saying. Shap glass HR only goes up to 10k. And that's ANSI, so really only 8k JIS. My Naniwa was 12k and 12k JIS. The glass HC only goes up to 8k ANSI, so 6 or 7 JIS.

I think 8k JIS is a big jump to .5u diamond pasted balsa. I could make another balsa at one micron I suppose. But I feel I have enough balsa and paste already.

 

[kohalajohn]

Hey guys

Thanks for all your input. I learned a lot on this thread.

I'm just going to buy a replacement Naniwa 12k. The double thickness one this time, the S2.

And lock this one away from curious boys.

 

[Frank Shaves]

I'm just going to buy a replacement Naniwa 12k. The double thickness one this time, the S2.

Excellent choice! As much as I love my two JNATs, I am getting some great edges from my S2 12k.

I bought my stones one at a time. After I bought my Shapton HR 8k, I was so happy I bought an HR 4k. I guess you could also order a bunch of stones but only open them one at a time.

 

[Steve56]

The 3k, 10k, and 30k are the Glass Stones Shapton recommends for razors.

If you want to save money by using smaller stones, check out the Shapton G7 Series

 

[njtnjt]

Njtnjt, was there much of a learning curve with the jnat?

I've held off getting a jnat as I read about members struggling to learn how much slurry to create, how to create it, how to water things down as you progress, and so on.

I am curious about it though. And now is the time to figure things out, as I'm shopping for rocks.

Well... none of it is rocket science Rubbing steel on abrasives of different sorts is all we are doing. I find JNats to be like musical instruments in that that you have to learn the instrument and how to play it in order to get the most out of it. This includes knowing how different steels react on your particular stone. It takes time and patience and in my case good note taking.
Bottom line is that there are many abrasives that can be used to get an edge. JNats are unique in that they create an edge that is very comfortable on the skin, and yet cuts my wiry beard like nothing else I have tried. I think everyone who uses and loves them can attest to this dichotomy. It’s why we put in the effort to learn to use them. Once you have the routine down on a given razor recreating it is easy... as long as I made good notes!

 

[Alum of Potash]

Hey guys

Thanks for all your input. I learned a lot on this thread.

I'm just going to buy a replacement Naniwa 12k. The double thickness one this time, the S2.

And lock this one away from curious boys.

Sounds like a cautious decision. How much have you used the Arkansas Combo? If Jarrod has made it convex, there may be trouble with the soft Ark side as the soft Arks tend to glaze over and you may not want to mess with what he has set up there. As such, once the soft Ark side has glazed a bit, you might have something in the mid-range to finisher stage used by itself in a two-stage progression, soft > black hard, which I would think should cover the 3k/8k you have, with the black hard side also potentially being used to calm a potentially harsh edge off the 12 Naniwa. Is your 3k/8k combo still usable? And did you like the results it was giving you? I would suggest comparing the soft Ark/black hard Ark progression and shaving with it, followed by the 3k/8k synth hone progression and shaving with it. Then introduce the 12k Naniwa and shave with it. Then reintroduce the black hard Arkansas and shave with it. It all boils down to whether or not the black hard Ark edge off the Naniwa 12k is better than the black hard Arkansas edge after the soft Ark used as a combo stone progression.

 

[kohalajohn]

Sounds like a cautious decision. How much have you used the Arkansas Combo? If Jarrod has made it convex, there may be trouble with the soft Ark side as the soft Arks tend to glaze over and you may not want to mess with what he has set up there.

I'm keeping my natural progression completely separate from the synth progression.

I have a set of razors that are exclusively honed with a soft ark then a hard ark. Their being convex speeds things up a bit, so I don't need a mid range. Once they are sharp, they are maintained on just the black ark.

And I have a second set of razors that are exclusively honed on 3k, 8k synth and a 12k Nani, then on .5u, .25u and .1u diamond on balsa. Once they are sharp, they are maintained on just the .1u balsa.

No trouble with the soft ark so far.

 

[kohalajohn]

Well... none of it is rocket science Rubbing steel on abrasives of different sorts is all we are doing. I find JNats to be like musical instruments in that that you have to learn the instrument and how to play it in order to get the most out of it. This includes knowing how different steels react on your particular stone. It takes time and patience and in my case good note taking.
Bottom line is that there are many abrasives that can be used to get an edge. JNats are unique in that they create an edge that is very comfortable on the skin, and yet cuts my wiry beard like nothing else I have tried. I think everyone who uses and loves them can attest to this dichotomy. It’s why we put in the effort to learn to use them. Once you have the routine down on a given razor recreating it is easy... as long as I made good notes!

I don't have jnats yet, so I only have suspicions, but my suspicion is that the thing about jnats is not that they are great rocks, but that they make great honers.

film, balsa, nanis, shaptons, they all work. They are simple to learn.

But jnats are not simple. Like you say, you have to take notes. What slurry to start with, what pressure and dilution to create the right progression, etc etc.

It forces you to really really pay attention. It forces you to become a really good honer. So of course you get good results. But strangely we give credit to the rock.

I also like old 911s and I think jnats are like air cooled 911s from the eighties and nineties. The gearbox was tricky to row your way through, and the weight of the engine in the rear would cause the rear to kick out in the turns. It forced you to really pay attention. We would go to amateur club day and practice around the cones. And when we finally got it right in a corner, drop to second, enter the apex high, hit the gas in order to squat the rear weight down and anchor the tires, we would have a great result and we'd say "wow, these are great cars!"

 

[lightfoot]

1000, 3000, 5000 Naniwa stones for groundwork.
Coticule with water only after that. Might throw in a Thuringian from time to time and occasionally I’ll pull out a couple of Jnats but that’s kind of rare for me.

 

[Dilbone]

I don't have jnats yet, so I only have suspicions, but my suspicion is that the thing about jnats is not that they are great rocks, but that they make great honers.

film, balsa, nanis, shaptons, they all work. They are simple to learn.

But jnats are not simple. Like you say, you have to take notes. What slurry to start with, what pressure and dilution to create the right progression, etc etc.

It forces you to really really pay attention. It forces you to become a really good honer. So of course you get good results. But strangely we give credit to the rock.

I also like old 911s and I think jnats are like air cooled 911s from the eighties and nineties. The gearbox was tricky to row your way through, and the weight of the engine in the rear would cause the rear to kick out in the turns. It forced you to really pay attention. We would go to amateur club day and practice around the cones. And when we finally got it right in a corner, drop to second, enter the apex high, hit the gas in order to squat the rear weight down and anchor the tires, we would have a great result and we'd say "wow, these are great cars!"

I'm not so sure about that. I picked up a wakasa jnat last fall and it has been nearly a no brainer and is giving me edges beyond what I'd ever gotten with synths, film, or my best coti in 6+ years of honing. Some stones may need "figured out" but other just seem to work like magic. I had another jnat before that never really did it for me...the guy that bought it says it's his favorite stone...go figure.
Different strokes for different folks I guess.

Sent from my SM-G981V using Tapatalk

 

[Steve56]

I don't have jnats yet, so I only have suspicions, but my suspicion is that the thing about jnats is not that they are great rocks, but that they make great honers.

film, balsa, nanis, shaptons, they all work. They are simple to learn.

But jnats are not simple. Like you say, you have to take notes. What slurry to start with, what pressure and dilution to create the right progression, etc etc.

It forces you to really really pay attention. It forces you to become a really good honer. So of course you get good results. But strangely we give credit to the rock.

I also like old 911s and I think jnats are like air cooled 911s from the eighties and nineties. The gearbox was tricky to row your way through, and the weight of the engine in the rear would cause the rear to kick out in the turns. It forced you to really pay attention. We would go to amateur club day and practice around the cones. And when we finally got it right in a corner, drop to second, enter the apex high, hit the gas in order to squat the rear weight down and anchor the tires, we would have a great result and we'd say "wow, these are great cars!"

There is nothing tricky about a jnat, they are one of the easiest naturals to use. That said, like all naturals you need to become familiar with your jnst and learn how to get the edge that you like for your razor/beard.

I think most of the idea by jnat beginners of jnats being complicated to use come from a few things

- there are all sorts of them, not all are the best razor finishers. I finish 99% of the time with 2 synths and the jnat on thin ir misty slurry. It doesn’t get much simpler than that. If your stone isn’t quite good enough, it will require more talent from you. You can coax a shaving edge out of many of them, even the not-the-cream-of-the-crop-stones, especially if you practice with it a good bit.

- You can use them with different slurry densities to make smoother or keener edges. This isn’t complicated, you just have to cut and try - and you should.

- You can use a series of different grit slurry stones as a progression. But you don’t have to, synths work gine as a lead in and are faster to boot. A nice set of grit-rich Mikawa nagura are fun sometimes though you don’t need them.

 

[kohalajohn]

Well...

I'm actually pretty sure I'll dive into jnats one year. Alfredo tells me (at the time I asked anyway) that he was simply finishing my razor by lapping his hard jnat with a worn diamond plate and then using the slurry created by this lapping and that was it. Simple and elegant.

But still, knowing when to dilute, when to reduce pressure, how to read the tells, I'm sure that took Alfredo a lot of practice.

One world at a time. I only recently feel that I have got my systems running well. I am finally getting edges that are sharp, comfortable and repeatable.

Thanks again gents for your input. All this stuff is endlessly fascinating.