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Like Glock, Beretta takes shot at the Army's new Pistol

OkieStubble

Dirty Donuts are so Good.
Beretta Takes Shot at Army MHS Reliability

Beretta Defense Technologies said recently that its M9 pistol is about 10 times as reliable as the U.S. Army’s new Modular Handgun System.

During this testing period 42 M9 pistols were fired 210,000 rounds, with resultant reliability “almost 10 times better than the rate of reliability required by the U.S. Army in its current Modular Handgun System program,” according to the release.

Beretta U.S.A. completed the fourteenth consecutive M9 Lot Acceptance Test this month with an average of only one malfunction every 19,090 rounds.

So, mathmatically speaking, Beretta is saying that the Army's new Sig P320, Malfunctions approximately every 1,909 rounds?

Remember, Not too long ago, Glock was saying something similar about the reliabilty of the Army's new choice.



The Government Accountability Office denied Glock’s protest of the Army’s selection, but the GAO describes the Sig Sauer as having lower reliability than Glock 19 on page 11, footnote 13 of its findings.

“Under the factor 1 reliability evaluation, Sig Sauer’s full-sized handgun had a higher stoppage rate than Glock’s handgun, and there may have been other problems with the weapon’s accuracy,” GAO states.

And lets not forget the recent drop test failings and recalls of over 500,000 Sig P320's?

I know from research, the drop test failures are only focused on the civilian models, but this makes me wonder if the reliability issues that Beretta and Glock are claiming on the Army's Sig model doesn't translate to the civilian models reliabilty.

I have personally fed and shot a little over 2,000 rounds now thru a Sig 320 Compact with various loads and haven't had even the slightest hiccup with it's reliability.
 
They focus on the gun, but what ammo are they using? Is it standard across the board? That's a lot of rounds. I've shot some pretty crummy ammo and never had an issue. If anyone can clarify on GAO ammo requirements, I'd be interested.
 
Not to mention who did the testing. Did Beretta do the testing themselves or was it done by an independent 3rd party? Also, we the guns randomly taken out of the box or were they guns that Beretta chose for testing?
Just like Glock, it sounds like little more than sour grapes on Beretta's part
 
They focus on the gun, but what ammo are they using? Is it standard across the board? That's a lot of rounds. I've shot some pretty crummy ammo and never had an issue. If anyone can clarify on GAO ammo requirements, I'd be interested.
Exactly. What ammo you use sometimes makes a difference. Id bet they werent shooting bulk ammo and likely did the test with the ammo that works best in that gun.
Glock and now apparently Beretta can crow all they want about reliability but Ive fired thousands and thousands of rounds out of my Walther PPQ without any malfunctions and I usually shoot whatever cheap bulk ammo the range has. A buddy of mine has done the same with his M&P Shield, again, no malfunctions.
 
Exactly. What ammo you use sometimes makes a difference. Id bet they werent shooting bulk ammo and likely did the test with the ammo that works best in that gun.
Glock and now apparently Beretta can crow all they want about reliability but Ive fired thousands and thousands of rounds out of my Walther PPQ without any malfunctions and I usually shoot whatever cheap bulk ammo the range has. A buddy of mine has done the same with his M&P Shield, again, no malfunctions.
I also have a PPQ and that gun eats everything. I've never had a snag. Nice choice of guns!:001_smile
 

simon1

Self Ignored by Vista
Sour grapes looks like.

Let's talk about the stuck cases in the M16s in Vietnam where the soldiers were found dead after the Matty Mattel jammed and the case rims were pulled off of the stuck cases trying to get them out.

They are going with the Sig...and it's good and not a primary weapon. I'd be happy with it.

But I'm not privy to the procurement things, so I really don't have the experience to say.
 

Ad Astra

The Instigator
M9 really IS ridiculously reliable, but it is getting long in the tooth, design-wise.

What did the F4 pilot say? Something like, "here I am, tooling along at 600mph in an aircraft made of a million parts- each one produced by the lowest bidder."


AA
 
"Ad Astra, post: 9234348, member: 102184"]M9 really IS ridiculously reliable, but it is getting long in the tooth, design-wise."

Not sure I can agree here. The 1911 design is/was a sight older than the ultra reliable M9. I dare say there are many who really believe it (1911) should still be the current service pistol. I however am not one of them. I'll take the M9 every day.
 

Ad Astra

The Instigator
Hm, @Acmemfg, don't get me wrong. I like M9 a lot; armorers like it (except for the occasional cracked locking block) and everyone shoots it well.

The military has a lot of experience with that pistol and its served a long time.

But time finds better ways of doing the same thing; one should keep an open mind.


AA
 
Well, I just hope their new choice works out well in the long run. Nice thing is in the civilian theater, one can choose to carry what they please. And all things considered, I probably would NOT opt for the M9 as an EDC weapon. Go figure.
 

OkieStubble

Dirty Donuts are so Good.
Well, I just hope their new choice works out well in the long run. Nice thing is in the civilian theater, one can choose to carry what they please. And all things considered, I probably would NOT opt for the M9 as an EDC weapon. Go figure.

I've carried a Beretta all day long, as I'm sure you have. It gets pretty heavy after 10 or 12 hours.
 

OkieStubble

Dirty Donuts are so Good.
Exactly. What ammo you use sometimes makes a difference. Id bet they werent shooting bulk ammo and likely did the test with the ammo that works best in that gun.
Glock and now apparently Beretta can crow all they want about reliability but Ive fired thousands and thousands of rounds out of my Walther PPQ without any malfunctions and I usually shoot whatever cheap bulk ammo the range has. A buddy of mine has done the same with his M&P Shield, again, no malfunctions.

I'm thinking a military grade weapon, should eat whatever you feed it.
 

IMightBeWrong

Loves a smelly brush
Even with this whole drop safety thing going on I think the 320 is a great pistol. Waiting to hear back on the voluntary upgrade for mine. New guns often have teething issues. God knows the M9 wasn't as reliable when it was adopted as it is now. The P320 will reap huge benefits in reliability over the decades as the military makes new requests over the years.
 
I know this will ruffle some feathers so here I go: Sig is an overpriced Beretta. In the current battlefield environments reliability is essential so Glock, then Beretta because it has been battlefield tested.
 
Yeah, I remember when Beretta was chosen to replace the 1911. Oh the protests! Politics...conspiracy. Talk of the 9mm not being stout enough for combat use. The Beretta was just a toy. Etc etc.

Their will be an ironing out process, but SIG, like Beretta, knows how to make a firearm. 30 years and Lord only knows how many armed conflicts from now the SIG will have its own fan base of veterans that learned to trust it and wouldn't be caught without one.
 
I cut my teeth on a 1911 and M14. The guys before me thought the 14 was garbage. Nothing could replace the M1. Yet many operators still use versions of the 14 for sniper duty.

I thought the M16 was garbage and no way I was going into combat with a .223 squirrel gone. 40 years later....

So, I guess each generation has its tools and the previous generation will always bemoan the changes.
 
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