Let's talk about steel

[aussie]

So I have a few razors now, of various different steels. I think I have come to some conclusion about what I like and what I don't.

So far I think that Sheffield and silver steels hold the best edges of razors I own, and that 01 tool steel steel is the softest and takes an edge that isn't as good.

What are your observations?

 

[Derwent]

Eskilstuna is very hard, tough steel. Takes a lot to get an edge on it.
Solingen silver steel is nice.
My very limited experience with Sheffield is so far wonderful.
Gold Dollar is harder to get a nice edge on and doesn't hold it as long as nice vintage.
Haven't tried O1 or stainless yet.

 

[aussie]

Eskilstuna is very hard, tough steel. Takes a lot to get an edge on it.
Solingen silver steel is nice.
My very limited experience with Sheffield is so far wonderful.
Gold Dollar is harder to get a nice edge on and doesn't hold it as long as nice vintage.
Haven't tried O1 or stainless yet.

I think you will find that all or most Gold Dollars are made from 01 tool steel. Please correct me if I am wrong!

 

[JPO]

I think you will find that all or most Gold Dollars are made from 01 tool steel. Please correct me if I am wrong!

Boker also uses 01 tool steel, but I think most can agree they are at a different leve then GD's. Discussing steel types in a vacuum does not make much sense. If a GD is made from recycled washing machines or quality steel is hard to know.
C.V Heljestrand and the Swedes are known for producing clean steel from good material resources. This combined with excellent heat threat and craftsmanship makes excellent razors.
I have a few preferences with regards to steel, but this goes hand in hand with the manufacturer.
A razor from e.g. Ralf Aust in 1095 is grate. That does not make 1095 a superior steel, but his razors are grate with that steel.
I am not sure if it is 1095 or C115CrV Ralf uses, but in this context it is not that relevant.

 

[Darth Scandalous]

I'm not well schooled in metallurgy but the specifics of forging and heat treatment are probably at least as important as the geographical source of the ore. Keep in mind that in the early part of the 20th century, Germany imported a lot of steel from Sweden and even owned several mines there prior to World War II. And you can also find Solingen blades stamped as being made from Sheffield steel. And Sheffield steel from the early 1800s is different from that of the middle part of that century. Probably what most people think of when they talk about Sheffield steel is from about 1840 to 1880. Later Sheffield steel seems more generic if that makes sense. Post-WW II Japan used steel from various sources, a lot from Sweden, some domestic. Early 20th century American steel is also quite good.

Grain structure and carbides are pretty significant to how a steel performs when honed to a razor edge, it's not just a matter of hardness.

Swedish steel has a reputation for hardness, certainly well-earned, but the truth is the majority of Swedish razors are probably just slightly harder than average. But some of them are ridiculously hard, when you have one, you will know: they have a different sound, more of a dull ring, and they are a lot more challenging to hone or even sand out pits and rust. But once you get a good edge, they hold it for a long time.

 

[Frank Shaves]

Lots of great steel to enjoy. Sheffield steel from the 19th century. The German steel from the first half of the 20th century (e.g., the steel used to make the Filarmonica blanks). The stainless steel used to make the Friodur blanks. And the C135 used to make the current Thiers Issard razors.

I still have not used the Hitachi Yasuki steel used to make some of the Japanese blades.

 

[RayClem]

There can be a difference in the razors produced from various types of steel. A lot has to do with the size of the carbides in the edge of the razor. However, the type of steel is only part of the equation. Just as important is how the steel was hardened, including the temperature at which it was quenched. The best steel in the world won't make a good razor if it is not properly hardened.

I tend to like Sheffield silver steel razors, even if that is just a fancy name for a type of tool steel. There is no silver in the mix.

I also like razors made from Solingen blanks as well as other carbon steel razors.

The C135 "carbonsong" steel used by Thiers Issard is very hard and difficult to hone, but holds it edge better than softer steels.

Both the carbon steel and stainless razors from Gold Dollar are somewhat soft. They hone easily, but need to be refreshed frequently.

I have only one razor with "bad steel". It is a Hart Steel razor made of O1 tool steel. The steel was cryo hardened. I do not know what happened in the manufacturing process, but I just cannot hone the razor to a sharp edge. Every time I get close to a sharp edge, the edge microchips making it unsuitable for my sensitive skin. I think the problem is due to the hardening process as I have O1 steel razors that are fine.

 

[Loner16]

I spent my adult life working with various tool steels. Uddeholm O1 was our bread and butter. To discuss steels used in straight razor manufacture is pointless, without many other facts of the process. We sometimes did our own heat treatment for die parts that we needed in a hurry. It sometimes turned out as well as professional heat treatment, sometimes not.. it's what we lived with.
I have a number of razors in O1, including a fairly early Hart. All great shavers. Better than other steels?? I may be a dolt, because i just don't know.
I also have the C-135 Carbonsong, whatever that steel is?? Yes it seems quite hard, and they have developed a reputation on the forums as being difficult to hone. Am evaluation that has apparently grown legs, as I read this all the time...I have not found that to be so, but, to each his own.

 

[RayClem]

I spent my adult life working with various tool steels. Uddeholm O1 was our bread and butter. To discuss steels used in straight razor manufacture is pointless, without many other facts of the process. We sometimes did our own heat treatment for die parts that we needed in a hurry. It sometimes turned out as well as professional heat treatment, sometimes not.. it's what we lived with.
I have a number of razors in O1, including a fairly early Hart. All great shavers. Better than other steels?? I may be a dolt, because i just don't know.
I also have the C-135 Carbonsong, whatever that steel is?? Yes it seems quite hard, and they have developed a reputation on the forums as being difficult to hone. Am evaluation that has apparently grown legs, as I read this all the time...I have not found that to be so, but, to each his own.

C135 steel is supposed to contain 1.35% carbon which is significantly higher than most other tool steels used for razors. O1 steel contains only 0.95% carbon. Both can be hardened up to 65 HRC, but harder is not always better. a harder steel is also more brittle which can result in microchips when honing to a super sharp edge. That is why the processing of the steel may be even more important than the steel itself.

 

[5whiskey]

Quench and temper process are often more important than the steel alloy used. I learned from the knife world that all O1s and all 1095 steels are not the same. Granted neither of them are currently in popular favor... but 1095 hardened and tempered properly will probably yield the absolute best edge achievable... for 2 or 3 uses before it needs a touch up. I have some 1095 blades that will hold an edge for a little while though. Dexter Russell has perfected 1095 in my opinion. I'm sad to see the company has yielded to pressure and now imports a bit of its selection, on top of relying more on stainless. Dexter Russell 1095 knives from 20 years ago, though... magnificent creations that are hard enough to keep an edge around a little while, tempered enough to be very durable and not brittle, and still could be sharpened to shave arm hair on the rough bottom of a ceramic cup.

Same thing with razors. I'm sure most (if not all) sheffield rwzor blades from the mid 19th century used the same steel alloy. But there sure is a difference between a wostenholm, Greaves, or Roger's and a reynolds...

 

[aussie]

But there sure is a difference between a wostenholm, Greaves, or Roger's and a reynolds...

Maybe you could tell us more about these differences? I find Wade and Butcher and George Wostenholme keep edges much better than do Gold Dollars.

 

[Loner16]

The internet is often a terrible place yo go for technical information. Everyone becomes an expert overnight by reading info that may, or may not be true.

Folks say that O1 can be hardened to Rc 65. That may be true in some cases, but our proffesional heat treaters, to the trade, could often not do it. Further, we could not specify a target Rc value. We always speced Rc 58-62, which they could hit. If we need different qualities, we moved to a different material.

I was a Tool & Die Maker, not a Metallurgist, so I'm not discussing esoterica... We worked where the rubber met the road. Pity not many can speak from the real world..

P.S. This is why I do not participate on machine shop forums... Everyone talking about things they know nothing about... And then, they'll proceed to tell a guy with 40 or more years experience turning handles, that he's dead wrong...

 

[Kyle89]

I ultimately gravitated towards C135 steel. I'm with @Loner16, I don't find it particularly difficult to hone other than running into some issues underhoning initially. Absolutely wonderful razors.

 

[aussie]

So last night I gave one of my Gold Dollars the pasted strop treatment. The result was a VERY sharp edge, but nowhere near as smooth as my Filarmonica which got the same treatment the night before.

I should take photos of the edges with the microscope to compare.

 

[JPO]

I like TI razors with C135 steel as well, but i have not found a TI yet with a good grind i like. This particular steel also seems to work really well on my JNAT's.
I have recently bought some razors from rasoir-sabre, which is made in with 100C6 steel, forged in France.
I think this has a little lower carbon content then the C135 steel (1% vs 1.3%). These particular razors, with this steel is really nice. They almost have the same face feel as a TI, but they are softer then the TI razors. Grind and steel is grate with these razors.
I have no idea if this steel is heat threated the same way as TI (molten lead). They are forged in Thiers in France.
This steel seems have a little more toughness to it then the C135. If that is because of the difference in heat treatment or it is the steel, i am not sure. I did find this steel to be easier to hone then C135, and less likely to develop micro chips.
I also got a razor from rasoir-sabre made from a Solingen blank. I have nothing to complain about with this razor, but the 100C6 steel felt different.

 

[Gamma]

I have a strong 'like' for forged steel blades, Sheffield, mid 1800s, W&Bs. I also like other makers and examples from other parts of the century. But I do gravitate to, say, W&B Celebrated blades from the mid to 'early late' 1800s time frame.
Also big fan of Greaves blades, much happier with the later stuff though.

Grind matters, I prefer heavier grinds, not all that into very hollow blades.
How a blade is honed matters a lot too.

I dislike cheap stamped blades, modern stuff, just not for me. I don't care if it cost $5, cheap doesn't impress me and I have not found any of it to make me happy for more than a minute. Pass.

In general, just about any quality vintage blade will do fine if the geometry is still good and it is honed correctly.
I would rather shave with a 7/8 half-hollow than a 5/8 full hollow. Even if the smaller blade had 'better' steel (whatever that is) I would go with the wider blade.

Yah, C135, is good. Tough stuff. So is all Swede steel.

Note - engraving on blades often doesn't mean diddly. For example, 'Swedish Steel' is a 'formula' once you're outside of Sweden. If you hone a Heljestrand or Engstrom or similar, that is real Swedish Steel. Something from someplace else is not the same. Vintage blades were often engraved with all sorts of steel names - Boker for example, used about 7-8 different etchings - like 'Fine India Steel' and 'Silver Steel', etc - even though they were using 'English Razor Bar Steel" for all of them.

I guess I don't get too caught up in just the steel type. I have had great shaves from many different steels.

 

[kcb5150]

I tend to stick to heavy grinds or framebacks more than I worry about the steel. I've sold off every stainless blade I've ever owned even though I had no trouble getting them plenty sharp but that may have been as much they were more modern style hollows and I really don't enjoy a lack of rigidity in a blade especially as my beard has gotten really tough with age.

 

[5whiskey]

Maybe you could tell us more about these differences? I find Wade and Butcher and George Wostenholme keep edges much better than do Gold Dollars.

Well, my reference specifically compared blades all from the same country. And in the 19th century, which I posit its highly likely most sheffield makers used the same source for steel. Greaves, W&B, Wostenholm, and Roger's are all exceptional razors. Frederick reynolds... not so much. GD probably makes better blades and Freddie R did. There are a few other much more generic sheffields that aren't so great either. I would bet they all use the same source for steel, yet some razors are MUCH better. Heat treating and temper methods account for the difference imo.

 

[Tanuki]

I like TI razors with C135 steel as well, but i have not found a TI yet with a good grind i like. This particular steel also seems to work really well on my JNAT's.
I have recently bought some razors from rasoir-sabre, which is made in with 100C6 steel, forged in France.
I think this has a little lower carbon content then the C135 steel (1% vs 1.3%). These particular razors, with this steel is really nice. They almost have the same face feel as a TI, but they are softer then the TI razors. Grind and steel is grate with these razors.
I have no idea if this steel is heat threated the same way as TI (molten lead). They are forged in Thiers in France.
This steel seems have a little more toughness to it then the C135. If that is because of the difference in heat treatment or it is the steel, i am not sure. I did find this steel to be easier to hone then C135, and less likely to develop micro chips.
I also got a razor from rasoir-sabre made from a Solingen blank. I have nothing to complain about with this razor, but the 100C6 steel felt different.

I also enjoy my Rasoir Sabre 100C6 blades, but I don't have enough experience with them yet, or my one T-I C135 blade, to compare the two French steels. The 100C6 blanks are from Forges Foréziennes and are unlikely to have been heat treated with molten lead. T-I is proud that they are able to use lead this way, a process which is otherwise banned for environmental and health reasons.

When I want to remind myself how deep the metallurgy of blade steels goes, I visit Larrin Thomas' website knifesteelnerds dot com.

 

[cotedupy]

I fixed this for another member last week, turning his broken GD into a shorty:

And I was wondering... can anyone tell me for certain what kind of steel is used for GDs? It's either really quite hard, or quite wear resistant, or more likely - both. This was very significantly more difficult to grind than any of the old Sheffields I've done before.