The Latherhog channel just posted a new video (and podcast), interviewing Scott Stewart of Declaration Grooming. It is a remarkably candid interview in places where they discuss dealing with high demand, and particularly towards the end when they discuss copied handle shapes in the industry. I was initially disappointed that they didn’t cover certain issues, but this is a uniquely intense discussion.
Lather Talk interview with Scott from Declaration Grooming
- Thread starter LostInCincy
- Start date
Copied handle shapes in a slippery slope as you can find influence within nearly all designs today from the past. Personally I am ok if someone has a take on a particular shape as long as it’s clearly within their own style and has their own flare and what not , if it’s clearly just an attempt to copy something someone else is doing then it is poor form.
Just an FYI these are also available as audio podcasts on Apple and maybe Spotify as well. Just in case you’re like me and like listening to podcasts while driving.
- Thread starter
- #4
And they often come out just a *hair* earlier via podcast.
- Thread starter
- #5
So I’ll go a little further here, drama or not. Do we think the one maker he was referring to was Viking Soap or someone else?
I've been somewhat curious about the real or perceived differences between cloning a handle shape vs duplicating a scent.
Kindof like Scott says he has mixed feelings about flippers, I have mixed feelings about the brush shape stuff... he and one other brushmaker that I know of have been pretty outspoken about feeling their shapes are being ripped off, so you know that they are passionate about it from an artistic standpoint which I absolutely respect. The thing about their brushes though is they are just not readily attainable, and when they are they are not cheap. So if you're a consumer, and you want that style of brush but you don't know if you'll ever be able to get it directly from DG, do you just resign yourself to saying OK I'd rather just never have the brush than have someone else make something close to it (probably for cheaper)?
And like @haggis mentioned, plenty of artisans do scent dupes, and don't seem to feel bad about using a scent from Creed or whoever else and advertising it as such. Admittedly I didn't pay close attention to the whole podcast and Scott may have addressed this while talking, but it does seem a little bit like the pot calling the kettle black when saying that handle turners should be original and artistic (i.e. not rip off shapes), while at the same time not doing the same thing with all your software scents. Is there a perceived difference because of how the different products are made? Tough balancing act for sure...
(@LostInCincy I would also guess that its either Viking or Mozingo)
Last edited:
- Thread starter
- #8
You bring up some great points that I also considered, especially the issue of dupes. He himself offers dupes, yet credits the collaboration with Shawn Maher for saving his business. How can he justify that? I wish the guys had pressed him on that.
I haven’t been really into wet shaving long enough to know, but the handle design he refers to as his invention, the Jefferson, is offered by nearly ever maker out there.
It really is an interesting issue, and with creative/design things (not just brush handles) I think it must be so hard to make a definitive who-came-first analysis, and if something can be called a copy... for example I've read that the Jefferson was thought to be similar to the M7 or Captain handles from Simpsons (which have clearly been around much longer), which at first I thought was crazy but then when you look at them you can see lots of similarities in the overall design with some differences in one component of the brush. It also doesn't make things easier that these are hand-turned and there's bound to be small differences between individual handles. If you as the producer have 5 handles named the same thing but they're all slightly different here or there, is someone really copying you if there's is slightly more different?
Scott also used to have a couple other handle styles, and I don't know if those are considered to be totally original too or if they are thought to be similar to other handles that had been made (and maybe that's why they're not really made regularly anymore). I do think that the Jefferson handle dates to around 2016, and the similar handles offered by other turners do seem to be after that time so if you looked at handle A from Scott and handle B from whoever else, you could probably say that Scott did his design first.
- Thread starter
- #11
Personally, I think there is a difference between a handle with a somewhat similar overall contour and a handle that is nearly indistinguishable in shape. The Simpson examples would fit into the former.
The Jefferson isn't an original design by far.... Even if it was original, did he apply for a patent on it? I highly doubt it so he needs to stop crying that everyone's stealing his designs!!
- Thread starter
- #13
Two things:
1. I believe it depends how granularly you want to define a “design.” This exact shape did not exist before him, and since he made it, this exact shape does appear elsewhere. Like I said above, maybe you could argue it doesn’t matter because some simple contours were available, but I don’t see how you can credibly say it’s not an original design to a certain specificity.
2. “Stop crying?” To my knowledge, this is the only time he’s ever said something publicly, and he was asked very directly about it.
1. I believe it depends how granularly you want to define a “design.” This exact shape did not exist before him, and since he made it, this exact shape does appear elsewhere. Like I said above, maybe you could argue it doesn’t matter because some simple contours were available, but I don’t see how you can credibly say it’s not an original design to a certain specificity.
2. “Stop crying?” To my knowledge, this is the only time he’s ever said something publicly, and he was asked very directly about it.
I guess what I meant to say earlier is that he could’ve been talking about any number of handle turners since the design is so ubiquitous now. Hard (for me anyway) to say who he could’ve been talking about since pretty much everyone makes that shape.
- Thread starter
- #15
Yes, I agree. It’s sort of like, where’s the cutoff? I don’t look at a Wild West Brushworks handle and think it’s a rip off, just a similar or iterative design. I look at the ones on the Viking Soap page and I have to check the URL to be sure where I am.
Similar threads
