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Large Honing Grit Jumps, How Large is Too Large?

Large Honing Grit Jumps, How Large is Too Large?

In another thread, setting a bevel on a finisher I talked about the overlooked aggressiveness of synthetic “finishers”.

The past few years I have been making larger grit jumps with great results. I hone on synthetics and finish on naturals from an 8k finish. I bevel set on a 1k, (I have several 1k’s, major brands) and jump straight to an 8k to a near mirror finish, then to a Jnat or Ark.

I thought I was the only one, but I have been looking at the Shapton 7 Glass stones. They sell a kit, with the very cool looking stacked glass stone holder, (that is another thread, I want to make one for full size stones) with huge grit jumps, 25, 6.7 & .44um. That’s 600, 2,500, and over 30,000 grit.

Yes, I know, it is a “Knife” set but Shapton seems to be saying those grit jumps are ok.

There is also an accomplished YouTube Woodworker/Tool maker that advocates honing tools, (chisels and plane blades) with a 500 grit Shapton or 1k Diamond plate and jump straight to a 16k Shapton to finish, with impressive results, micron shavings and super smooth wood finishes. Yes, again I know, that is for tools, but you can not argue with the results, especially if you actually, try these seemingly crazy jumps.

And then there’s Alex Gilmore’s body of great honing videos going from 1k bevel set to finishing on a single Jnat diamond slurry. Worth watching the whole set of videos, if you are thinking about Jnat honing.

Before Al Gore invented the inter-webs, folks honed Axes, knives and razors, on a course stone and a fine stone. I honed on a Washita and a Translucent, talk about grit jumps, maintained a single razor for over 10 years on a 6-inch translucent.

Anybody else doing large jumps?
 
I don't have anywhere near the experience you do, but I've experimented wit initial bevel work on 30 micron film followed by 9micron, 3 micron, and 1 micron before finishing. It seems to work, although with films being what they are, I find that adding in intermediate steps (say, 12 and 5 micron) reduces wear on the film.

On the other hand I've had good luck starting on 9 micron and going straight to 3. I haven't got to a point where my 3micron edges are good enough to finish on an ark. Maybe with synths instead of film thay would be different.
 
Large Honing Grit Jumps, How Large is Too Large?

In another thread, setting a bevel on a finisher I talked about the overlooked aggressiveness of synthetic “finishers”.

The past few years I have been making larger grit jumps with great results. I hone on synthetics and finish on naturals from an 8k finish. I bevel set on a 1k, (I have several 1k’s, major brands) and jump straight to an 8k to a near mirror finish, then to a Jnat or Ark.

I thought I was the only one, but I have been looking at the Shapton 7 Glass stones. They sell a kit, with the very cool looking stacked glass stone holder, (that is another thread, I want to make one for full size stones) with huge grit jumps, 25, 6.7 & .44um. That’s 600, 2,500, and over 30,000 grit.

Yes, I know, it is a “Knife” set but Shapton seems to be saying those grit jumps are ok.

There is also an accomplished YouTube Woodworker/Tool maker that advocates honing tools, (chisels and plane blades) with a 500 grit Shapton or 1k Diamond plate and jump straight to a 16k Shapton to finish, with impressive results, micron shavings and super smooth wood finishes. Yes, again I know, that is for tools, but you can not argue with the results, especially if you actually, try these seemingly crazy jumps.

And then there’s Alex Gilmore’s body of great honing videos going from 1k bevel set to finishing on a single Jnat diamond slurry. Worth watching the whole set of videos, if you are thinking about Jnat honing.

Before Al Gore invented the inter-webs, folks honed Axes, knives and razors, on a course stone and a fine stone. I honed on a Washita and a Translucent, talk about grit jumps, maintained a single razor for over 10 years on a 6-inch translucent.

Anybody else doing large jumps?

No, quicker intermediate grits saves time and I believe produces better edges that require less laps on the finisher that could become harsh if overdone.
The amount of work to truly rid the edge of a coarse grit pattern with an ultra fine stone can be tedious.
Not for me but YMMV :)
 

rbscebu

Girls call me Makaluod
Of course you can go from a course grit (say 1k) straight to a finishing grit (say 18k), if you have the time and patience to hone all the 1k marks off of the bevel using the 18k. This could take hours and thousands of laps. I don't have the time or patience.

In grit sizes (I use synthetics), I normally go up about 2x or at the most 3x with each progression, like 1k > 3k > 5k > 10k etc.. I always finish on diamond pasted balsa strops.
 

Steve56

Ask me about shaving naked!
I think a lot of it is what jumps that the manufacturer designed the stone sequence for. Shapton designed the Glass Stones for 3x jumps and they’ll do 4x jumps just fine because the HR series is very fast. Typically I do 2 Glass stones and a JNat finisher. What two stones those are depends on the starting condition of the edge.

Shapton Glass 2k HR -> Glass 6k HC -> JNat finisher. Pretty much the gold standard for average bevels on used raxors.
Shapton Glass 3k HR -> Glass 8k HC -> JNat finisher. A recent a quisition, the Glass 3k HR is a stone that Shapton recommends for razors.
Shapton Glass 4k -> Glass 8k HC -> Jnat finisher. Refreshing a sound bevel but worn edge. I used this sequence to refresh my Filly 14 Sub Cero with 153 shaves on it.

It’s certainly possible to go from bevel set to finish on some JNats in a slurry or two, but the stones that can do that are not common or cheap. Here’s a nice Nakayama 60 cut that will, I glassed the Gold Dollar, reset the bevel on Atoma slurry, then finished on a couple of tomo slurries of different thicknesses. I could have just done a thick Atoma slurry and diluted it out to clear water I suppose.

543ADCB6-8C16-4C32-AAAC-9E9EC3ABEFDB.jpeg
 
I sometimes do a few laps on a 0.1 micron pasted balsa after a natural finisher. It seem to bump the edge without sacrificing the feel. It’s a big jump. It doesn’t remove the scratches but it may have a deburring effect. Not sure.
 
“I sometimes do a few laps on a 0.1 micron pasted balsa after a natural finisher. It seem to bump the edge without sacrificing the feel. It’s a big jump. It doesn’t remove the scratches but it may have a deburring effect. Not sure.”



I recall reading Iwasaki paper years ago and have use Chrome Oxide pasted canvas to strop between stones to debur since, especially post 1k bevel set, lately I have use a firehose strop and at times both. I also stropped on Chrome Oxide prior to the final Jnat laps to ensure complete flashing/burr removal.

You use nano grit diamonds Iwasaki used Chrome Oxide to ensure burr removal.

W. Iwasaki was not the final word on honing, but he was one of the first to study and document honing technique. Some of the modern text may be questionable and or lost in translation, as commonly happens, but if you follow his line of thinking much of the fog shrouded language comes through.

I have incorporated the spirit of his technique with good success. Surely, if modern nano-grit synthetic stones and paste existed, he would have found a way to eke out any advantage.

I find the Shapton 2,500 to 30,000 grit recommendation the most interesting, in the Shapton 7 kit, though if the bevel is fully on the hone, the bevel behind the edge is cut first, so it is not necessary to polish the whole bevel at 30K.

I do feel that an edge does not get fully straight and refined until after 8k, so it is much easier to ensure a solid strong edge post 8k, then polish.

Would love to know Shapton’s thinking on that large jump.

Below are some micrographs that Tim Zowada took of one of his edges, pre and post stropped on plain linen. If clean linen can polish just the edge, a 30k must do more.

1 Base800.jpg
2 Linen800.jpg
 
I stick to 3X, max. The reason is that, however perfect I get the initial bevel (and I shaved off the 1K once, reasonably successfully, so I think I understand how to set a bevel), I find tiny irregularities in the geometry, apparent only under the microscope, or to my much abused thumb, as I move up the grit sequence. Those need to be corrected, to get to perfection, and I sure don't want to do that on a finisher. The microscope has made me very aware of how hard it is to get the grit lines of a stone all the way to the edge, along the entire bevel, with no evidence of the prior stones, and smaller jumps are an invaluable ally in getting there.
 
Large Honing Grit Jumps, How Large is Too Large?

In another thread, setting a bevel on a finisher I talked about the overlooked aggressiveness of synthetic “finishers”.

The past few years I have been making larger grit jumps with great results. I hone on synthetics and finish on naturals from an 8k finish. I bevel set on a 1k, (I have several 1k’s, major brands) and jump straight to an 8k to a near mirror finish, then to a Jnat or Ark.

I thought I was the only one, but I have been looking at the Shapton 7 Glass stones. They sell a kit, with the very cool looking stacked glass stone holder, (that is another thread, I want to make one for full size stones) with huge grit jumps, 25, 6.7 & .44um. That’s 600, 2,500, and over 30,000 grit.

Yes, I know, it is a “Knife” set but Shapton seems to be saying those grit jumps are ok.

There is also an accomplished YouTube Woodworker/Tool maker that advocates honing tools, (chisels and plane blades) with a 500 grit Shapton or 1k Diamond plate and jump straight to a 16k Shapton to finish, with impressive results, micron shavings and super smooth wood finishes. Yes, again I know, that is for tools, but you can not argue with the results, especially if you actually, try these seemingly crazy jumps.

And then there’s Alex Gilmore’s body of great honing videos going from 1k bevel set to finishing on a single Jnat diamond slurry. Worth watching the whole set of videos, if you are thinking about Jnat honing.

Before Al Gore invented the inter-webs, folks honed Axes, knives and razors, on a course stone and a fine stone. I honed on a Washita and a Translucent, talk about grit jumps, maintained a single razor for over 10 years on a 6-inch translucent.

Anybody else doing large jumps?
I sometimes go from an 3k Naniwa pro to coticules (without slurry) and JNATS (with slurry). If you move from a coarser stone to a hard midrange/finisher you might have to spend more time, but for me it is easier to read the feedback from the stone, if that makes any sense. I also enjoy sharpening, so speed is not my first priority.

The glass stone seven grits provided in the set is difficult for me to understand. I understand the 25 and the 6.7, but what is the point of the last stone for knife use? You would need to be a high end sushi chef with an really good knifes and good sharpening skills to get the best out of this one. To me it would make more sense to include the 1.2 micron.
The 0.44 cuts really fast though. So i guess it makes sense if you do all the ground work on the 25 and 6.7. If you only do a few passes on the 0.44 you will probably still have some bite in the edge and a nice polish, if that is what your after. You could go crazy and put a light saber edge on it if that is what you are after to with a little more effort.

Because of their cutting speed you could put together an affordable set of stones.
I have the HR 3k, 6k and the Seven series 6.7 (2k/2.5), 1.2 (8k), 0.85 and the 0.44. A large jump should not be a problem with these stone, but it is always nice to have closer grits. If they are used as a system it takes the guessing out. After the bevel is set you only need a minimal amount of strokes on each stone.
There is a blog which i am not allowed to reference to, where some tests have been done to measure the amount of abrasion vs "grit". For the shapton gs stones the 4k seems to remove just as much material as the 2k. The 8k seems to remove material at half the rate. I am not sure if that is caused by the stone loading up, or the density of the particles etc.

Naniwa stones are different again, so i think each stone series needs to be assessed on their own merits.
On knifes the 3k Naniwa pro seems to cut almost as fast as the 800 in my experience. So you have grit density, particle distribution, hardness etc, all factor in. Part of the problem is the wet stone companies are not that transparent about these things.
I compared the results i got from my 2k Naniwa pro with my HR 3k on kitchen knifes. The 2k Naniwa seemed to give a better polish and a better edge, but the HR 3k seemed faster. JIS vs Mesh rating aside, there is clearly more to it then just grit size.
Rambling now:)
 
My first setup was norton 1k to 4 to 8. It worked for me and many others. You have to make sure the work is completed at each step. But that applies to everything anyway. The big jumps mentioned are fairly common in the knife forums. 325 dmt to xxf for microbevel as one example. But i think the extra fine in that case removes or virtually removes the bur which is why it works so well.
 

Steve56

Ask me about shaving naked!
I find the Shapton 2,500 to 30,000 grit recommendation the most interesting, in the Shapton 7 kit, though if the bevel is fully on the hone, the bevel behind the edge is cut first, so it is not necessary to polish the whole bevel at 30K.

This paragraph is from Dictum’s site regarding the G7 set:

Glass Stones by Shapton

The premium range from Japanese company Shapton is the »Glass Stone« series. The sharpening particles are highly pure and homogeneous. This is noticeable when changing to finer grits: the traces from the previous grit are quickly ground out. A special bond allows quick sharpening on a flat surface. The sharpening stone has a base of tempered glass and is thus 100 % warp-free. Conventional sharpening stones may warp at the microstructure level by absorbing water, but Shapton stones solve this problem with their extremely flat base of tempered glass
 

Slash McCoy

I freehand dog rockets
Large Honing Grit Jumps, How Large is Too Large?

In another thread, setting a bevel on a finisher I talked about the overlooked aggressiveness of synthetic “finishers”.

The past few years I have been making larger grit jumps with great results. I hone on synthetics and finish on naturals from an 8k finish. I bevel set on a 1k, (I have several 1k’s, major brands) and jump straight to an 8k to a near mirror finish, then to a Jnat or Ark.

I thought I was the only one, but I have been looking at the Shapton 7 Glass stones. They sell a kit, with the very cool looking stacked glass stone holder, (that is another thread, I want to make one for full size stones) with huge grit jumps, 25, 6.7 & .44um. That’s 600, 2,500, and over 30,000 grit.

Yes, I know, it is a “Knife” set but Shapton seems to be saying those grit jumps are ok.

There is also an accomplished YouTube Woodworker/Tool maker that advocates honing tools, (chisels and plane blades) with a 500 grit Shapton or 1k Diamond plate and jump straight to a 16k Shapton to finish, with impressive results, micron shavings and super smooth wood finishes. Yes, again I know, that is for tools, but you can not argue with the results, especially if you actually, try these seemingly crazy jumps.

And then there’s Alex Gilmore’s body of great honing videos going from 1k bevel set to finishing on a single Jnat diamond slurry. Worth watching the whole set of videos, if you are thinking about Jnat honing.

Before Al Gore invented the inter-webs, folks honed Axes, knives and razors, on a course stone and a fine stone. I honed on a Washita and a Translucent, talk about grit jumps, maintained a single razor for over 10 years on a 6-inch translucent.

Anybody else doing large jumps?

As you yourself have said, razors and knives are different things. But sometimes not THAT different...

My preference is a 2x to 3x jump, in microns. But it's not written in stone. (See what I did there? LOL) I like a modest jump because it is just easier for me. Bigger jumps can certainly work. Smaller ones get tedious. If I do a lapping film only progression on a razor that obviously needs the bevel set, I might go 60μ, 30μ, 15μ, then the bevel should be set with no burr and the edge equivalent to a bevel set on a 600 to 1k grit stone. From there it is convenient to go 9μ, 3μ, and finally 1μ which is a little finer than a Naniwa 12k Superstone. The balsa has given me the best results at .5μ, .25μ, and finally .1μ with the latter also used for regular maintenance. It is easy and it is routine for me. I could do what most guys do, and insert 12μ and 5μ films in there, but I haven't seen any difference in results and it takes a little longer, and I would have to keep two more grades of film on hand.

With stones, I usually set the bevel on my 600 Chosera, with maybe an assist from my Kuromaku 320 or a 400 grit stone I don't remember the brand, From 600 Chosera or sometimes 1k Norton I go Naniwa Superstone 1k, 3k, 8k, 12k, then the balsa. Pretty standard. Except I really am disillusioned with the 3k and sometimes I give it a little extra light pressure action on the 1k with a little dish soap in the honing water, and really pull out all the stops, almost as though I intend to shave off the 1k. Then skip to the 8k Naniwa and start with a slight increase in pressure, then back off. It works, of course. Why wouldn't it? I just get a little more intense at the low and high end of a jump like that. Now for a knife, doesn't matter. We don't hone knives for comfort, just to cut easily and cleanly. And we know that the edge is going to suffer a little, the first time it contacts bone or cutting board or copper wire or whatever, so the level of perfection that we agonize over with razors is simply not needed except maybe for a few very specialized knives. The very acute bevel angle of a razor also places some limits on our use of pressure and how far into the process we can go before a significant pressure reduction. This having to really watch the pressure makes the standard jumps more attractive than bigger ones, but it's not such a big deal when honing your pocketknife or favorite chef knife.

When I started (trying to) shave with a straight razor, the internet wasn't invented yet, either. I had no mentor, no references. It took me YEARS to start getting decent, trauma free shaves. My weapon was the first of three Dovo Best Quality razors that I owned, all three being lemons. Of course I didn't know how sucky they were. I had various arkies, gray carborundums, India stones, etc for knives and tools, including one fairly hard ark that was my knife finisher. I found a huge block of translucent rock similar to a trans ark in a hardware store in Mexico, and started using that to finish the razor. Hone, attempt to shave. Fail. Hone. Attempt to shave. Fail. Finally I started really looking at the edge and saw how wonky the Dovo was, and I went medieval on it on my coarse knife stones. I bullied that razor into some sort of a bevel and it wasn't pretty but the beginnings of an edge were there. I was honing the razor like I hone my knives, lots of circle stroke sets with heavy pressure, then back and forth laps with light pressure. Of course the final stone was that giant piece of Mexican quartzite or whatever it was, By this time the Mexican rock was nicely burnished and was slick as glass. I found that I could do a thousand or so laps and see an improvement in the edge. So I honed and honed and honed on that rock, and my shaves started getting less punishing. Not many years after that, Al Gore twinkled his nose and as you said, the Internet happened. Suddenly there were no more secrets. You could learn ANYTHING. And I was exposed to a community that shared actually TOO MUCH information to be optimally useful! But with my BS filters on, and with a few well researched purchases, my shaves quickly improved to a rather pleasant activity that actually removed all my stubble. Now as you know, natural stones, particularly very fine and super hard Arkansas type stones, can't be assigned a grit rating. It's all about the surface you put on the stone through lapping, burnishing, and normal use. But going from my "hard" arkansas to the big rock was probably equivalent to a 600 grit to a 6k grit jump. Or more. It wasn't optimal by any stretch of the imagination. But not even knowing what I was doing, it did work after a fashion, once I had the bevel figured out and the twisty blade beaten into injured submission.

I tell beginners to use standard size jumps, because it is easier to get right, early in the journey, not because one HAS TO do it that way. Also, the stones to do it with are commonly available, so why not? Now, in days of yore, sure, lots of guys honed a razor from scratch on a 400 grit India, then a barber hone. Or an arkie progression. Whatever. As with me, the more primitive edges would shave, but not like the edges we can make today, with our expanded tool sets and knowledge base. There was a time when a Norton 8k was considered a finishing stone, and guys shaved off it. Yeah I could do that, but I am mightily spoiled now, and why not? I love a sharp and smooth edge, and the edges I am getting now and for the past few years seem to be as good as it gets. No way I would shave off my three line Swaty these days! And the control and edge quality I get from my usual size jumps and customary method is very effective.

Bottom line, the max POSSIBLE jump size, when honing a razor, IMHO, just depends. YMMV.
 
I'm a small jump enthusiast. In my perfect world grits would increase by phi. Ever notice how popular sand paper grits follow this pretty well 60, 100, 150, 220, 320. Or our popular stones 1k, 2k, 3k, 5k, 8k, 12k, if the 12 was 13 it's fibonacci.

Having a set of small jumps adds the security of knowing that if your dropped and shattered any stone from the progression, you could easily get by until the stone was replaced.
 
I'm a small jump enthusiast. In my perfect world grits would increase by phi. Ever notice how popular sand paper grits follow this pretty well 60, 100, 150, 220, 320. Or our popular stones 1k, 2k, 3k, 5k, 8k, 12k, if the 12 was 13 it's fibonacci.

Having a set of small jumps adds the security of knowing that if your dropped and shattered any stone from the progression, you could easily get by until the stone was replaced.
You do have the Sigma Select 13k. It all makes perfect sense now🤓
 
My progression useally is,
400 Naniwa Chosera (if needed)
1000 Naniwa Chosera (useally used to set bevel)
3000 Naniwa Pro
4000 Naniwa Gouken Hajibusha
8000 Naniwa Gouken Fuji
After that i jump to 1 of my 4 Jnats or sometimes i use a Coticule or I have a Dota Creek I am still learning how to use.

I also have a Naniwa super stone 10 K but dont use that very often find the 8K Fuji polishes enough.
I would llike to experience a Arkansas stone (nesides that Dota Creek) maybe in the future.
 
My progression useally is,
400 Naniwa Chosera (if needed)
1000 Naniwa Chosera (useally used to set bevel)
3000 Naniwa Pro
4000 Naniwa Gouken Hajibusha
8000 Naniwa Gouken Fuji
After that i jump to 1 of my 4 Jnats or sometimes i use a Coticule or I have a Dota Creek I am still learning how to use.

I also have a Naniwa super stone 10 K but dont use that very often find the 8K Fuji polishes enough.
I would llike to experience a Arkansas stone (nesides that Dota Creek) maybe in the future.
That is nice a progression. I have tried the 1k, 4k and 8k to finisher. I think putting in the 3k as you did makes the work on the 4k much easier. The 4k is really soft, but somehow the 8k compliment it really good. In my opinion the Fuji is closer to a 9-10k. To me it seems like it provides a finer edge then the super stone 8k.
 
That is nice a progression. I have tried the 1k, 4k and 8k to finisher. I think putting in the 3k as you did makes the work on the 4k much easier. The 4k is really soft, but somehow the 8k compliment it really good. In my opinion the Fuji is closer to a 9-10k. To me it seems like it provides a finer edge then the super stone 8k.
Yes i have the 3k/10k super stone combi stone, but i hate how the 3K fills up with swarf(cloggs it) so in april i bought the 3K pro and really love it sometimes i even use that to start if the bevel only needs a refresh.

and like i said the 8K true my louwsy magnification looks like its almost the same as the 10k i have so i start useally my Jnat on the 4 or 8K
 
Yes i have the 3k/10k super stone combi stone, but i hate how the 3K fills up with swarf(cloggs it) so in april i bought the 3K pro and really love it sometimes i even use that to start if the bevel only needs a refresh.

and like i said the 8K true my louwsy magnification looks like its almost the same as the 10k i have so i start useally my Jnat on the 4 or 8K
If you get good results jumping from the 4k Gouken, you are fine. I tried moving from the 4k to a JNAT, but did not get good results. Under magnification it seemed like the 4k introduced a little micro convexity, maybe because it is so soft, that my JNAT struggled to remove. I had better results moving directly from the 8k Fuji, or from the 3k pro. They seem to work really good as a system.
The 1k Kurouto in the lineup is really hard and thirsty. I am not sure what the logic in this particular lineup is. It seems to affect how you use them in a progression.
 
If you get good results jumping from the 4k Gouken, you are fine. I tried moving from the 4k to a JNAT, but did not get good results. Under magnification it seemed like the 4k introduced a little micro convexity, maybe because it is so soft, that my JNAT struggled to remove. I had better results moving directly from the 8k Fuji, or from the 3k pro. They seem to work really good as a system.
The 1k Kurouto in the lineup is really hard and thirsty. I am not sure what the logic in this particular lineup is. It seems to affect how you use them in a progression.
I only have the Chosera 1K (was actually my very first stone i purchased back in 2014) but I am only just starting back honing because of the summer months and the fall i have not because of other things ( and my 50+ razors where fine) but now i have a little supply of razors to hone so the fun can begin the coming weekends.

I have actually missed it some ( i have 9 to go so i have a few weekends to hone again Yeah!!) so i think i will try that Dota creek out if its any good, (I got in a trade a few months ago)anyone have experience with that type of stone??
 
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Better use of midrange stones and broader progression yields better results for me vs larger jumps and fewer stones. I’m not honing for speed, I’m honing for a good edge.
 
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