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Lapping film, try it.

Cast acrylic sheet is probably flatter, generally speaking. A calibrated granite lapping plate is certainly flatter, but is too heavy to hold in hand.
interesting. i would expect the glass to be flatter since it floats. A liquid surface is the flattest possible thing. I have no idea how they make the acrylic sheet or how they would lap and calibrate the granite plate. Would the acrylic stay flat over time? I would be afraid that it deteriorates.
 

rbscebu

Girls call me Makaluod
interesting. i would expect the glass to be flatter since it floats. A liquid surface is the flattest possible thing. I have no idea how they make the acrylic sheet or how they would lap and calibrate the granite plate. Would the acrylic stay flat over time? I would be afraid that it deteriorates.
Sorry but you are not correct. Almost all normal glass available in the US and most other countries is float glass (not plate glass). It is called float glass because it is processed on a bed of molten tin (it floats on the molten tin). Float glass is normally not ground or polished like plate glass and acrylic is.

It is not uncommon for float glass to vary in flatness by up to 100um to 200um over 500mm. Ground and polished glass or acrylic has a flatness variation over 500mm of about 10um or less.

By all means you could use plate glass (ground and polished) however, compared to acrylic of the same thickness, it is more expensive, heavier (remember that you are holding it in hand) and is much easier to break.

Both glass and acrylic are semi-fluid at room temperature. As such they will tend to loose their flatness over time, particularly if the are not stored flat. If stored on edge I would recommend that the glass be replaced about every 20 to 30 years and the acrylic about every 10 to 20 years. If it is stored flat, you can probably double those time periods. I don't think that I'll live another 30 to 40 years. I'm overweight, love riding motorcycles and shaving with a straight razor 😀.
 
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Slash McCoy

I freehand dog rockets
interesting. i would expect the glass to be flatter since it floats. A liquid surface is the flattest possible thing. I have no idea how they make the acrylic sheet or how they would lap and calibrate the granite plate. Would the acrylic stay flat over time? I would be afraid that it deteriorates.
No acrylic doesn't deteriorate, not enough to matter. Very inert. If you stick with 3/4" or 1" thick, it should stay true for a lifetime, if not unreasonably treated. All things considered, it is the best possible material for use as a plate under your lapping film. For thinner material, all bets are off. Anyway you want it thick so your fingertips are below the path of the razor as you hone.

Actually a liquid surface is not necessarily flat at all. There is surface tension to consider. Also it will curve slightly due to gravity. The first very long runways to be constructed with the use of laser leveling developed a mysterious drainage problem in the middle. That is because the middle of a straight line from one point to another on a sphere will be closer to the center, IOW lower, than the ends. Okay that's pretty small potatoes but surface tension can play a big part and also uneven cooling of a liquid that is solid at room temperature. As RBS said, float glass doesn't float, either.

For our purposes, float glass is generally flat enough. But it is hard to source in appropriate thicknesses and so you end up having to back it up with yet another material so you can safely hone in hand. Forget about wood. It warps. Forget about anything that expands or contracts with temperature at a different rate from the glass. And if you can find 1" thick float glass it will be expensive and heavy. And fragile. Acrylic is much tougher. For our purposes, unbreakable. It is cheap. It is light. It is very flat. Film sticks quite well to it. It is easy to cut with ordinary shop tools including hand saws, and is easy to source in custom sizes. I order mine already cut to 3" x 12".

Bottom line is there doesn't seem to be anything else that works as well as acrylic and there is no reason to use anything else. Been there, done that.
 
Sorry but you are not correct. Almost all normal glass available in the US and most other countries is float glass (not plate glass). It is called float glass because it is processed on a bed of molten tin (it floats on the molten tin). Float glass is normally not ground or polished like plate glass and acrylic is.

It is not uncommon for float glass to vary in flatness by up to 100um to 200um over 500mm. Ground and polished glass or acrylic has a flatness variation over 500mm of about 10um or less.

By all means you could use plate glass (ground and polished) however, compared to acrylic of the same thickness, it is more expensive, heavier (remember that you are holding it in hand) and is much easier to break.

Both glass and acrylic are semi-fluid at room temperature. As such they will tend to loose their flatness over time, particularly if the are not stored flat. If stored on edge I would recommend that the glass be replaced about every 20 to 30 years and the acrylic about every 10 to 20 years. If it is stored flat, you can probably double those time periods. I don't think that I'll live another 30 to 40 years. I'm overweight, love riding motorcycles and shaving with a straight razor 😀.

I guess you can just use acrylic and don't even bother storing it flat then :D. Thanks for the flatness variation numbers. Honestly even the float glass numbers look pretty flat to me. I didn't take any physics into account and just assumed a liquid surface would be flat. My question remains, how do they make the acrylic plate or the plate glass so flat then? They grind it? Like who polices the police you know?

No acrylic doesn't deteriorate, not enough to matter. Very inert. If you stick with 3/4" or 1" thick, it should stay true for a lifetime, if not unreasonably treated. All things considered, it is the best possible material for use as a plate under your lapping film. For thinner material, all bets are off. Anyway you want it thick so your fingertips are below the path of the razor as you hone.

Actually a liquid surface is not necessarily flat at all. There is surface tension to consider. Also it will curve slightly due to gravity. The first very long runways to be constructed with the use of laser leveling developed a mysterious drainage problem in the middle. That is because the middle of a straight line from one point to another on a sphere will be closer to the center, IOW lower, than the ends. Okay that's pretty small potatoes but surface tension can play a big part and also uneven cooling of a liquid that is solid at room temperature. As RBS said, float glass doesn't float, either.

For our purposes, float glass is generally flat enough. But it is hard to source in appropriate thicknesses and so you end up having to back it up with yet another material so you can safely hone in hand. Forget about wood. It warps. Forget about anything that expands or contracts with temperature at a different rate from the glass. And if you can find 1" thick float glass it will be expensive and heavy. And fragile. Acrylic is much tougher. For our purposes, unbreakable. It is cheap. It is light. It is very flat. Film sticks quite well to it. It is easy to cut with ordinary shop tools including hand saws, and is easy to source in custom sizes. I order mine already cut to 3" x 12".

Bottom line is there doesn't seem to be anything else that works as well as acrylic and there is no reason to use anything else. Been there, done that.

First, I wouldn't dream of contradicting a man who quotes Jebediah Springfield. I am not sure what you mean by "As RBS said float glass doesn't float either". He says it floats on molten tin. Do you know how they technically achieve the flatness for acrylic plates?
 

rbscebu

Girls call me Makaluod
Both plate glass and acrylic are ground and polished flat. Float glass is not ground and polished flat. Glass is harder to grind and polish than acrylic. That is one of the reasons why plate glass of the same thickness is generally more expensive than acrylic.
 
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Ok fellas. I made it to page 100 before all my gear arrived. I then proceeded to hone my new to me romo, and a GD 100 that I acquired. On the GD I had to grind down the shoulders a little bit but it looks like their QC did ok on this one.

Here's my progression

Bevel set on GD:
Sharpal 325/1200 stone

Both honing:
5u: 30ish laps
3u: 25 laps
1u: 25 laps
30 laps on strop

After the honing I had to test them out of course, and by golly it worked! No nicks, cuts, or weepers! I'd only used DE and shavettes before this, so I was mighty impressed.
Also, this is the first time I've honed a razor ever and also modified one.
It was super easy to do and I have to give thanks to all you awesome guys for putting out vids and instructions for the rest of us and giving pointers along the way

Happy shaving!
 
Hello! This thread has been super helpful for me and I am looking forward to trying to hone my new (and first) straight! I have read all posts.

I have however had a very difficult time finding 3M non PSA lapping film in the proper microns at a decent price in Canada.

After a few hours of EBay, Amazon and Google I purchased the following:
proxy.php


I realize two of the sheets are Diamond film and PSA while two are Alum with no PSA. Cost was $40 Cdn. I will be using these on a glass plate.

Will this be ok? I can and will cancel this order if there is a better option. Unfortunately I could not find one.

Any feedback for a newbie to this is appreciated!

Thanks in advance.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Hello! This thread has been super helpful for me and I am looking forward to trying to hone my new (and first) straight! I have read all posts.

I have however had a very difficult time finding 3M non PSA lapping film in the proper microns at a decent price in Canada.

After a few hours of EBay, Amazon and Google I purchased the following:
proxy.php


I realize two of the sheets are Diamond film and PSA while two are Alum with no PSA. Cost was $40 Cdn. I will be using these on a glass plate.

Will this be ok? I can and will cancel this order if there is a better option. Unfortunately I could not find one.

Any feedback for a newbie to this is appreciated!

Thanks in advance.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Try these guys.

www.digikey.com
 

Slash McCoy

I freehand dog rockets
Thanks!

Is the product I bought terrible? Would you suggest I return it?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
That's a tough question to answer objectively. On the one hand I advocate total optimization of every single factor. If you will compromise on one, you will compromise on many others. And once you give up one tiny miniscule bit of quality, you don't get it back. It only gets worse. That's why my "Method" philosophy is all about exactly and precisely following very detailed directions that have been well considered, and leaving nothing to chance, guess, or discretion. Following a method, any method that has been proven to work, with absolutely zero deviation, substitution, or omission, is the sure path to early or even immediate success, and not just half-baked success, but results equal to those normally achieved by experienced practitioners.

On the other hand, anything works. Sort of. You can hone a razor on the bottom of a coffee cup. It has been done. Now diamond film probably works very good, but I would think it would work best after the film has worn a bit, shedding its proud diamond particles, for a more consistent scratch depth within any one grit stage. My most significant objection to diamond film is the cost, and also the difficulty in scoring full size sheets. Yes, you can hone on a honing surface only a few inches long. And in fact one of my finishing techniques involves the use of very short strokes. But a long stroke strips a lot of steel off in a very controlled manner, getting the same result with a finer grit, in terms of approaching the perfect bevel surface. If you can find diamond film in 8-1/2" x 11" sheets for a reasonable price, remembering that you actually get more sessions out of a piece of diamond film than AlOx or SiC film, then that blows two of my arguments out of the water, and all you have to do to place the diamond film within the orthodoxy of The Method is to hone a knife or two on a piece before honing any razors on it.

As for the PSA film, a lot of guys claim there is absolutely no reason not to use it. My answer to this is first of all, that you should follow THEIR methods if you want to use their choice of film. Remember the philosophy of The Method is that THIS method, or at least A proven method, must be followed precisely if you expect to get early and high quality results. The goal is not an edge that is "not bad for a newbie". The goal of Method honing is an edge that is every bit as good as what the "gurus" get, and to get it on the first or at least second attempt.

Now addressing PSA directly, I have tried it and dismissed it. Later I tried it again. And yes you will hear "NOT SO! NOT SO!" regarding every one of my objections. PSA introduces a variable thickness and therefore less reliable flatness even with a very flat plate. PSA is difficult or impossible to reposition once stuck, and invariably leaves little bits of adhesive behind, creating a lumpy (on a microscopic level) honing surface. It is very easy to get a bubble or some lint or dust under film, and it needs to be cleared, and obviously this is a problem with PSA. Perhaps the biggest problem is that the 1/4" or so at the edge of the film piece wears out quicker than the rest. It does this with plain back film, too. But with plain back, you can simply slid the film over 1.4" or so, hanging that worn strip at the edge off the edge of your plate, and slice it off with a sharp knife, then slide the cut edge back just slightly onto the plate, and alles gut.

All of the details of The Method have been worked out and discussed and found to be optimal. Even if one or two are actually in error, you are honing more optimally following this or another PROVEN method precisely, rather than mixing and matching the details to suit your availability or personal sensibility. If you want to change something, you should do it based on knowledge. If you know more than the collective mind of those who codified a particular method, then you should be following your own method and beating their edges as a matter of course. Assuming of course that the best possible edge is in fact your goal. Some guys simply enjoy honing in a particular style for a variety of reasons and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. But if you are using lapping film it is a pretty safe bet that you are only looking for inexpensively won but stunningly brilliant edges. In other words, if you know more than those advocating a method, then do it your way, and if not, then do it their way.

So yes, you CAN use whatever you like, whatever you can afford, whatever you can easily get, whatever you already have, and use it in any fashion that you see fit. That is not Method honing. But it is still honing. However when you leave the path, you are venturing away from simply doing by the numbers, and into LEARNING, which unquestionably is fascinating, challenging, and stimulating, but will take some tome to get results that will make a pro hang his head in shame or denounce you as a heretic.

It won't hurt anything in the long run if you use what you got.To be perfectly honest, in your position that is exactly what I would do. But my next order would be for "The Right Stuff", and I would be very observantly comparing results. So final answer, no it is not "terrible", simply not perfectly optimum nor in accordance with The Method. And I will not suggest that you return it. Instead I simply point out why you would have been better served getting TRS, or "The Right Stuff" in the first place.

Now standing by for howls of outrage. I am kinda used to that so don't feel bad for me.
 
That's a tough question to answer objectively. On the one hand I advocate total optimization of every single factor. If you will compromise on one, you will compromise on many others. And once you give up one tiny miniscule bit of quality, you don't get it back. It only gets worse. That's why my "Method" philosophy is all about exactly and precisely following very detailed directions that have been well considered, and leaving nothing to chance, guess, or discretion. Following a method, any method that has been proven to work, with absolutely zero deviation, substitution, or omission, is the sure path to early or even immediate success, and not just half-baked success, but results equal to those normally achieved by experienced practitioners.

On the other hand, anything works. Sort of. You can hone a razor on the bottom of a coffee cup. It has been done. Now diamond film probably works very good, but I would think it would work best after the film has worn a bit, shedding its proud diamond particles, for a more consistent scratch depth within any one grit stage. My most significant objection to diamond film is the cost, and also the difficulty in scoring full size sheets. Yes, you can hone on a honing surface only a few inches long. And in fact one of my finishing techniques involves the use of very short strokes. But a long stroke strips a lot of steel off in a very controlled manner, getting the same result with a finer grit, in terms of approaching the perfect bevel surface. If you can find diamond film in 8-1/2" x 11" sheets for a reasonable price, remembering that you actually get more sessions out of a piece of diamond film than AlOx or SiC film, then that blows two of my arguments out of the water, and all you have to do to place the diamond film within the orthodoxy of The Method is to hone a knife or two on a piece before honing any razors on it.

As for the PSA film, a lot of guys claim there is absolutely no reason not to use it. My answer to this is first of all, that you should follow THEIR methods if you want to use their choice of film. Remember the philosophy of The Method is that THIS method, or at least A proven method, must be followed precisely if you expect to get early and high quality results. The goal is not an edge that is "not bad for a newbie". The goal of Method honing is an edge that is every bit as good as what the "gurus" get, and to get it on the first or at least second attempt.

Now addressing PSA directly, I have tried it and dismissed it. Later I tried it again. And yes you will hear "NOT SO! NOT SO!" regarding every one of my objections. PSA introduces a variable thickness and therefore less reliable flatness even with a very flat plate. PSA is difficult or impossible to reposition once stuck, and invariably leaves little bits of adhesive behind, creating a lumpy (on a microscopic level) honing surface. It is very easy to get a bubble or some lint or dust under film, and it needs to be cleared, and obviously this is a problem with PSA. Perhaps the biggest problem is that the 1/4" or so at the edge of the film piece wears out quicker than the rest. It does this with plain back film, too. But with plain back, you can simply slid the film over 1.4" or so, hanging that worn strip at the edge off the edge of your plate, and slice it off with a sharp knife, then slide the cut edge back just slightly onto the plate, and alles gut.

All of the details of The Method have been worked out and discussed and found to be optimal. Even if one or two are actually in error, you are honing more optimally following this or another PROVEN method precisely, rather than mixing and matching the details to suit your availability or personal sensibility. If you want to change something, you should do it based on knowledge. If you know more than the collective mind of those who codified a particular method, then you should be following your own method and beating their edges as a matter of course. Assuming of course that the best possible edge is in fact your goal. Some guys simply enjoy honing in a particular style for a variety of reasons and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. But if you are using lapping film it is a pretty safe bet that you are only looking for inexpensively won but stunningly brilliant edges. In other words, if you know more than those advocating a method, then do it your way, and if not, then do it their way.

So yes, you CAN use whatever you like, whatever you can afford, whatever you can easily get, whatever you already have, and use it in any fashion that you see fit. That is not Method honing. But it is still honing. However when you leave the path, you are venturing away from simply doing by the numbers, and into LEARNING, which unquestionably is fascinating, challenging, and stimulating, but will take some tome to get results that will make a pro hang his head in shame or denounce you as a heretic.

It won't hurt anything in the long run if you use what you got.To be perfectly honest, in your position that is exactly what I would do. But my next order would be for "The Right Stuff", and I would be very observantly comparing results. So final answer, no it is not "terrible", simply not perfectly optimum nor in accordance with The Method. And I will not suggest that you return it. Instead I simply point out why you would have been better served getting TRS, or "The Right Stuff" in the first place.

Now standing by for howls of outrage. I am kinda used to that so don't feel bad for me.

First I would like to say thanks for sharing all your knowledge and experience for all us members! I know I really appreciate it!

As this will be my first attempt at honing I really appreciate your answer. I will make the attempt with what I have and make sure to get TRS on my next order.

If my attempts is unsuccessful I will be sending my straight away to a more experienced person to get shave ready and I will then continue my learning.

I did look at my edge with my loop and I do not see any chips or damage but the blade does not tree top at all. I am hoping I can follow the instructions throughout this thread and progress.

Thanks again and here is to learning and improving!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
First I would like to say thanks for sharing all your knowledge and experience for all us members! I know I really appreciate it!

As this will be my first attempt at honing I really appreciate your answer. I will make the attempt with what I have and make sure to get TRS on my next order.

If my attempts is unsuccessful I will be sending my straight away to a more experienced person to get shave ready and I will then continue my learning.

I did look at my edge with my loop and I do not see any chips or damage but the blade does not tree top at all. I am hoping I can follow the instructions throughout this thread and progress.

Thanks again and here is to learning and improving!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
You’ll be just fine with the psa stuff. I’ve used both and the difference is negligible if applied properly.
 

Slash McCoy

I freehand dog rockets
First I would like to say thanks for sharing all your knowledge and experience for all us members! I know I really appreciate it!

As this will be my first attempt at honing I really appreciate your answer. I will make the attempt with what I have and make sure to get TRS on my next order.

If my attempts is unsuccessful I will be sending my straight away to a more experienced person to get shave ready and I will then continue my learning.

I did look at my edge with my loop and I do not see any chips or damage but the blade does not tree top at all. I am hoping I can follow the instructions throughout this thread and progress.

Thanks again and here is to learning and improving!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Don't give up after one failed attempt. Go at least twice. The second try is often the charmed one. It is uncanny what a difference a second attempt makes. I would guess that 60% of new Method honers get the Eureka! thing going on with their second at bat. Study everything you can find on setting the bevel. You want to at least get a good bevel on your first try. You can try and try and try and try and then suddenly realize you have honed 10% of your razor away! So study, and get that bevel set good and proper and verified before you even think about moving onward and upward.Depending on the actual state of the edge, setting the bevel on 15u lapping film might take some time. Be patient. Most of us at least do the preliminary heavy lifting on sandpaper or stone, and then clean it up with film for a good bevel. Do your research, Do your studying. Here is the central thread of The Method: Newbie Honing Compendium | Badger & Blade
Within that thread you will find links to all the other threads that are the core of The Method, including what is most important to you right now, the bevel setting thread.
 
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