- Thread starter
- #21
Thanks all for the constructive comments - I've been encouraged to keep going. The next razor up is the heljestrand which is always super sharp.
Bas
Bas
Lack of progress after 6 months SR shaving
- Thread starter Baz4262
- Start date
I am of the opinion that if you need a second or third pass with a straight razor, then you are doing something wrong.
I would be surprised if stropping on plain leather with a reasonable amount of reps would have any noticable impact on bevel convexity. My understanding is, that it mainly effects burr removal, but I might be wrong about this.
Also looking at the results from science of sharp, I'm not convinced that adding a light convexity (with a pasted hanging strop) to the bevel is necessary a bad thing.
I know an SR shaver who alternates his SR shaves with using a Wilkinson Sword/Schick Protector 3 on alternate days. Which seems to me a great combo as any SR irritation nicks and cuts are given a chance to heal, whilst the Protector 3 is one of the best razors for tackling lower jaw/neck stubble comfortably and efficiently
@Baz4262, Sounds like you have a very nice setup!
Perhaps this has already been discussed. After first shaving with the grain (WTG), have you tried shaving (I think it's called) across the grain (90 degree rotation from WTG) rather than against the grain (180 degree rotation)?
Now how to do this under your chin, I am less sure. I would try coming at the hair under your chin at different angles trying to avoid shaving directly against the grain.
Perhaps this has already been discussed. After first shaving with the grain (WTG), have you tried shaving (I think it's called) across the grain (90 degree rotation from WTG) rather than against the grain (180 degree rotation)?
Now how to do this under your chin, I am less sure. I would try coming at the hair under your chin at different angles trying to avoid shaving directly against the grain.
A little deflection is fine as long as you're not excessively torquing the edge into the leather. Some people strop slacker than others. I've tried both and both seem to work.
I completely disagree, but YMMV.
Disagree indeed.
There is NO EDGE that will shave as well in one pass as an excellent edge in two -three.
There is NO EDGE that will shave as well in one pass as an excellent edge in two -three.
Shaving is about hair reduction. That said, everyone's hair is different and your hair may vary by location.
I have a couple suggestions, just for the sake of experimentation.
1. Try shaving right off the balsa once. It won't be as comfortable on the skin but it should shave easily and it will tell you if you've been degrading the edge on your hanging strop.
2. Start by shaving the problem areas first. It's unlikely but if you have very coarse whiskers, or are shaving with too high an angle, the edge could be falling off a little by the time you get there. (I haven't had this happen but I do occasionally strop again before my third pass if it needs it). High shave angle kills edges quickly.
3. If you can get your hands on a cheap Feather AC clone, like the CJB, try it with a Feather Pro blade. This will be a little sharper than a Method edge, but maybe not quite as smooth. If you're getting the same results, it's your technique, not the edges. If it's significantly better than your straights, it's your edges.
Also I'd probably avoid the paddle strop for now. It will be less forgiving of bad technique.
- Thread starter
- #30
I actually considered option 2 above. I have seriously hard (for a lack of a better word) hair. DE blades rarely last me more than one or two shaves.
Get some magnification, a $15 Carson MicroBrite 60/100X. Look straight down on the edge. Lightly place the scope on the edge and rock the spine back and forth. You will see any light reflections from chips or where the bevels are not fully meeting.
Likely you have rolled the edges stropping either on leather or balsa, very common for new stroppers.
If you see light reflection, the razor will need to go back to the stones.
If you can shave problem areas with a double edge, the problem is the edge on the straight razor and if pro honed, the edge was rolled stropping, it only takes one errant stroke.
Here are a couple of micrographs of an edge, looking straight down. First is an almost fully set bevel, note light reflections upper right. And no reflections on second photo, fully set edge.
Likely you have rolled the edges stropping either on leather or balsa, very common for new stroppers.
If you see light reflection, the razor will need to go back to the stones.
If you can shave problem areas with a double edge, the problem is the edge on the straight razor and if pro honed, the edge was rolled stropping, it only takes one errant stroke.
Here are a couple of micrographs of an edge, looking straight down. First is an almost fully set bevel, note light reflections upper right. And no reflections on second photo, fully set edge.
I think this is the best reply so far. I frequently refer to my 'neck maelstroms' and unhesitatingly pick up a short 'hoe' razor (DE, SE, injector) if I want to reduce the last traces of maelstrom to a completely placid duck pond.
Will somebody fund me to drive around the country on an SR inspection tour? I'll be mapping guys' beards for direction and whisker character, documenting their honing practice, testing their edges on my face, watching/recording their shaves, and rigorously applying the well-defined CCS/DFS/BBS scale. None of this HHT, tree-topping, electron microscope nonsense. I'm talking pure honing/shaving process and results.
The funding will include an appropriately sized and skilled goon squad to assure compliance. I'm hoping that won't affect the results, by triggering trembling hands, weeping into the lather, or complete psychic breakdowns.
Anyway, once the funding comes through and I complete my longitudinal, latitudinal, and possibly altitudinal survey (my attitudinal adjustments are already complete) I will be ready to tell other guys how to solve their SR shaving issues.
I do appreciate reading all the offered advice, because it reveals the many ways to prep a razor and shave a face. SR shaving rivals chess for theoretically possible games. I will only live long enough (and have the budget) to try a tiny sample. The hnat brick does seem affordable.
Meanwhile, I remind myself that all this (including everything I do personally) would seem absolutely incredible+hilarious to the vast number of SR shavers who left us a myriad of well-treated (and horribly abused) vintage razors to enjoy.
So, don't worry, be happy, have fun! And keep posting!
rbscebu
Girls call me Makaluod
I don't even bother with XTG under the chin. I just do WTG + 2 x ATG in that area. No biggie as, with a SR and good technique, there is concern with skin irritation.
I just manipulate the blade every whichway until I'm either dead, or smooth.
So far, this technique hasn't steered me wrong.
So far, this technique hasn't steered me wrong.
Lots of great advice and thoughts on this thread. A sharp and smooth edge is of the utmost importance no matter what straight razor you are using…you may have the most beautiful and unique razor…but if it doesn’t have it where it counts, it’s wasted effort.
In addition, you mentioned trouble on the neck, jawline, under chin I assume are included. I didn’t see anyone mention razor type…size and shape. If you are using a honking 9/8 custom with 3+ inches of cutting edge…that razor is more difficult to use on the troubled areas than say an Engstrom Frameback.
In fact, since you have only been at it for six months, perhaps you might have better luck trying some different razor shapes and sizes. The Engstrom Framebacks give me some of my best shaves, and I highly recommend!
Vr
Matt
In addition, you mentioned trouble on the neck, jawline, under chin I assume are included. I didn’t see anyone mention razor type…size and shape. If you are using a honking 9/8 custom with 3+ inches of cutting edge…that razor is more difficult to use on the troubled areas than say an Engstrom Frameback.
In fact, since you have only been at it for six months, perhaps you might have better luck trying some different razor shapes and sizes. The Engstrom Framebacks give me some of my best shaves, and I highly recommend!
Vr
Matt
- Thread starter
- #37
I'm really grateful for all the great inights posted. I'm glad I managed to provoke all the comments. Will keep plugging away. Koraat incoming soon.
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This is my standard advice for people relatively new to SR shaving. The aquisition of the interconnected skills of shaving and stropping / honing make starting out a considerable challenge.
With a guaranteed good edge on a new AC blade, one can zero in on the fault. It may be a combination of sub-optimal shaving / lathering technique and a poor edge... That said, I would tend to agree with the other posters who feel that after 6m with little improvement, the edge is at fault.
OP for what it's worth, it might be helpful to review your lathering. I find the trickiest areas (such as the neck, and as a headshaver the rear quarter of the scalp) need a very good-quality lather. Aim for a very rich but very wet mix, something with similar level of drip to slightly runny custard... A sub-standard lather makes good technique with the blade very difficult if not impossible to achieve. Hope this isn't redundant advice.
I suspect a few things.
1 - the initial edge, the bevel, is 'marginal' and not 100%.
2 - the lather is not up to snuff.
3 - stropping skills are not developed well enough and exacerbating the baseline issues.
No one wants to hear their lather isn't where it needs to be. Fact is, a lot of people come to straights from the DE world and their lather is too thick; a common culprit in the 'tugging blade' and 'not sharp enough' complaints.
Similarly, no one wants to hear their bevel isn't 100% on-point. Blades that shave well WTG but not ATG can sometimes fall into the 'marginal' class. Meaning, there's a decent enough bevel to pass rudimentary tests/observations but perhaps not enough of a bevel to get 'there'.
In comparison, I can manage decent ATG passes off my bevel setter. Once an edge gets to that point, then it's ready to be refined. That's for me...that's how I hone, that's how I evaluate edges. Other people may want to argue about that, due to hair types or whatever. Well, I'm not young, a good portion of my whiskers are really tough, many are grey, and Feather blades can get hung up in a few spots. So if I am going ATG off my 1.5k stone, that should be illuminating.
Stropping...I think more people miss the edge than roll it but that's just my take on things. Lack of stropping will prevent an edge from performing at its best. Rolling the edge will prevent the edge from shaving well period. So, you getting good WTG says that's not the problem. Tree-topping means almost nothing to me. Lots of steel here can lop off hairs but not shave well. The shave test is what matters and being able to shave ATG is the acid test.
Depending on where the edge is in its lifespan can dictate the need for more slack, or not - maybe a couple/few other factors weigh in there also. But, generally, all hanging strops will 'give' and they will induce a tiny smidge of convexity. Same for paddle strops too, but less so. Leather is soft, it give, no getting around that. Even a taught strop will bow when stropping. None of the above is enough to stop an edge that will go ATG correctly from not being able to do that. None of it is problematic either. I've tuned up an edge on an abrasive-charged linen for multiple years with negligible 'convexing'. FWIW - coticule create edges with slightly convex bevels, so.. yeah...
I honestly suspect some shaving improvement would be seen if your bevels were reworked to perfection, and your lather becomes wetter and slicker. Same for being more tuned into the stropping.
Prep matters - washing face well, hydrating skin well, etc. Revisiting beard-mapping can help also. Sometimes, E/W is is not really XTG, etc.
Problems experienced by new/new-ish shavers are usually not coming from complex esoteric issues and it's almost never 'just one thing'. So look to the simple things first and assume there's a combination of them afoot.
1 - the initial edge, the bevel, is 'marginal' and not 100%.
2 - the lather is not up to snuff.
3 - stropping skills are not developed well enough and exacerbating the baseline issues.
No one wants to hear their lather isn't where it needs to be. Fact is, a lot of people come to straights from the DE world and their lather is too thick; a common culprit in the 'tugging blade' and 'not sharp enough' complaints.
Similarly, no one wants to hear their bevel isn't 100% on-point. Blades that shave well WTG but not ATG can sometimes fall into the 'marginal' class. Meaning, there's a decent enough bevel to pass rudimentary tests/observations but perhaps not enough of a bevel to get 'there'.
In comparison, I can manage decent ATG passes off my bevel setter. Once an edge gets to that point, then it's ready to be refined. That's for me...that's how I hone, that's how I evaluate edges. Other people may want to argue about that, due to hair types or whatever. Well, I'm not young, a good portion of my whiskers are really tough, many are grey, and Feather blades can get hung up in a few spots. So if I am going ATG off my 1.5k stone, that should be illuminating.
Stropping...I think more people miss the edge than roll it but that's just my take on things. Lack of stropping will prevent an edge from performing at its best. Rolling the edge will prevent the edge from shaving well period. So, you getting good WTG says that's not the problem. Tree-topping means almost nothing to me. Lots of steel here can lop off hairs but not shave well. The shave test is what matters and being able to shave ATG is the acid test.
Depending on where the edge is in its lifespan can dictate the need for more slack, or not - maybe a couple/few other factors weigh in there also. But, generally, all hanging strops will 'give' and they will induce a tiny smidge of convexity. Same for paddle strops too, but less so. Leather is soft, it give, no getting around that. Even a taught strop will bow when stropping. None of the above is enough to stop an edge that will go ATG correctly from not being able to do that. None of it is problematic either. I've tuned up an edge on an abrasive-charged linen for multiple years with negligible 'convexing'. FWIW - coticule create edges with slightly convex bevels, so.. yeah...
I honestly suspect some shaving improvement would be seen if your bevels were reworked to perfection, and your lather becomes wetter and slicker. Same for being more tuned into the stropping.
Prep matters - washing face well, hydrating skin well, etc. Revisiting beard-mapping can help also. Sometimes, E/W is is not really XTG, etc.
Problems experienced by new/new-ish shavers are usually not coming from complex esoteric issues and it's almost never 'just one thing'. So look to the simple things first and assume there's a combination of them afoot.
- Thread starter
- #40
Eloquent. Thank you.
