Knife honing free hand. Why bother?

[paintflinger]

Examine the curve with a loupe, chances are you are not rotating the handle of the knife enough to get the point. You have to lift the handle to keep the edge in contact, and it's not a "normal" motion, you have to learn it. Took me a while, but if you have a decent knife, it should be well ground all the way out. Unlike non-japanese knives, the point should be sharp all the way out. Different curve than German or American knives too. Practice while not moving the knife on the stone until you get the motion worked out.

VG-10 is great steel except that it can hold a foil edge forever. It is very hard though, and can take a while to fix a bad grind.

I'm fond of Tojiro DP knives -- very plain as they are really restaruant knives in Japan, but well made, get and stay very very sharp, and are inexpensive for Japanese knives. My 300 mm gyuto was less than $100.

Yeah, consistently nailing that change in angle is what's proving difficult. I'll get there.

Next knife is probably going to be an Aritsugu Sujihiki in their wildly hated Gohinko steel. Something about the idea of a super resilient semi stainless blade appeals to me. Only problem is that they won't come with a Wa handle and I hate conventional knife handles. Only comparable blade in their A-styles (which is the same steel I think) with a Wa handle is their Yanagiba. I don't need another Gyuto as I just picked up a Miyabi Birchwood.

 

[psfred]

You get much better results from the belt sanders and similar tools with German Stainless -- you don't need a fine edge, you do need some convexity, and they are VERY abrasion resistant. A slightly slack belt will give you a very nice edge fast. On stones you will be working for a while....

Handles are a very personal thing, eh? I personally like the blocky Tojiro handles, but if you don't like the square shape, that belt sander can round them off pronto, they are micarta or some sort of resin impregnated wood. No big deal to modify.

I do like the wa handle on my cheap Korean knife though. And by cheap, I mean maybe $8 on eBay. Hand forged from "railroad steel", whatever that is, very very rough, with only an OK grind, but it takes a wonderful edge. It's my favorite knife for onions since it has a very wide but short blade.

 

[Slash McCoy]

Examine the curve with a loupe, chances are you are not rotating the handle of the knife enough to get the point. You have to lift the handle to keep the edge in contact, and it's not a "normal" motion, you have to learn it. Took me a while, but if you have a decent knife, it should be well ground all the way out. Unlike non-japanese knives, the point should be sharp all the way out. Different curve than German or American knives too. Practice while not moving the knife on the stone until you get the motion worked out.

VG-10 is great steel except that it can hold a foil edge forever. It is very hard though, and can take a while to fix a bad grind.

I'm fond of Tojiro DP knives -- very plain as they are really restaruant knives in Japan, but well made, get and stay very very sharp, and are inexpensive for Japanese knives. My 300 mm gyuto was less than $100.

All high end Japanese style knives run RC 61 and up, and carbide disk "pull through" sharpeners will fracture the edges badly. Using a serrated knife steel will damage them too if you use much pressure, and since the knife is harder than the steel, it won't help the edge any. They get dull from actual erosion of the apex or micro-fractures, unlike soft German knives that have the edge fail by folding or bending. I also don't recommend abrasive rods either, they are very very difficult to hold at the correct angle to restore the edge.

For the confused, the motion he means is sort of like the rolling X stroke used for honing smiling razors, but the rolling motion starts very slow and accelerates as the handle comes up. And it has to come up pretty high. Paint the bevel with a sharpie and give the knife 3 or 4 laps. Where there is still ink is where you are not making contact. Typically you will see the top edge of the bevel get shiny but the apex will still be black, just past where the curve of the edge deepens going up to the point. This indicates that you did not raise the handle high enough. Eventually you will get an edge but the bevel angle will be very acute going toward the point, and the edge will be very delicate. The cure is to put more roll into the motion, coming up higher.

 

[buca3152]

For the confused, the motion he means is sort of like the rolling X stroke used for honing smiling razors, but the rolling motion starts very slow and accelerates as the handle comes up. And it has to come up pretty high. Paint the bevel with a sharpie and give the knife 3 or 4 laps. Where there is still ink is where you are not making contact. Typically you will see the top edge of the bevel get shiny but the apex will still be black, just past where the curve of the edge deepens going up to the point. This indicates that you did not raise the handle high enough. Eventually you will get an edge but the bevel angle will be very acute going toward the point, and the edge will be very delicate. The cure is to put more roll into the motion, coming up higher.

I was wondering if you ever used your balsa strops on a knife. Sounds like it would work well. But never tried it myself. Perhaps a lower grit paste.

 

[Slash McCoy]

I was wondering if you ever used your balsa strops on a knife. Sounds like it would work well. But never tried it myself. Perhaps a lower grit paste.

MUCH lower would probably be more practical. Maybe 5u or so. maybe 12u. For most ordinary knives, going above 1k grit IMHO is overkill. Fancy knives, maybe different. I wouldnt know from personal experience since I have never paid more than $50 for a pocketknife or more than maybe $10 for a kitchen knife. Cheap knives work just fine if you are not a world class sushi chef or something along that line. I cut all manner of very tough fiber, fabric, and hide in my job with a $30 American made Buck 110 from Walmart, and have been known to even cut my steak with it at lunch, since it cuts so much better than the miniature saws we call steak knives. A cheap 600 grit diamond plate from Harbor Freight is an excellent finisher for it, but I prefer my Cabelas 4 slot pull through. 600 grit is about 15u, I guess. My daily driver post shave edge maintenance strop is treated with .1u diamond. Different blade. Different job with different requirements, so different grit size. If you literally need a shave ready edge on a fine sushi knife, I imagine 1u (not .1u) grit diamond would gitter done nicely. After all, that is roughly equivelant to a 12k Naniwa.

For that sort of knife though, I would think a jnat would very likely be a more logical tool for midrange and finishing work. Maybe a coticule, but I think the friable jnat slurry would work better for that sort of knife than garnet.

No, I have never used any strop, balsa or leather, pasted or unpasted, on any knife. That doesn't mean it doesn't work, only that I myself don't perceive any significant reward from it. My razors get all my love. My knives are just a convenient modern substitute for a cleverly flaked piece of flint or obsidian.

 

[psfred]

Stropping is great if you have a knife that benefits, not all do. As I said before, typical soft stainless (RC52-56) cromova steels require a fairly fat edge to work well, if you try for a thin bevel like a Japanese knife, the edge usually looks like swiss cheese where the big fat carbide particles are ripped out by a fine stone. No point in stropping.

A sushi knife benefits greatly from having a near razor edge and being highly polished. A very fine, exceedingly sharp edge is how you get that shine on raw fish slices, and a thin very keen knife is required to make clean cuts. Ditto for cooked meat. Not a requirement for cutting string or rope, you want a lot more "sawtooth" character for that.

Jnats or coticules, or these days very fine grit synthetic stones work well with Japanese style knives. Outside of cosmetics, the edge usually gets run up to 6k or so with a finish strop on chromium oxide paste. I use a Bester 1200 and an old King 6k stone for knives most of the time, sometimes with a synthetic 3000 grit in between. I find the 1200 to 6k jump works well for my gyuto -- leaves enough tooth for raw meat while giving enough polish to cut really well in other things.

 

[paintflinger]

I find 5 to 6k finish to be ideal for most stuff.

 

[buca3152]

Update! My leather belts that I use for finishing stretched and they wobble. Could have something to do with being in an outdoor tool shed with no climate control. So I got several linen belts which don't wobble. I also got a 6k equivalent micromesh belt. Overkill for what I do with my knives. I find a 220 grit deburred with white compound to be extremely adequate in the kitchen. One other thing is I've been sharpening at a lower angle. 15 degrees or so. As opposed to 22.5 which I've been told is fairly typical for Western kitchen knives.

 

[psfred]

Lower angle edges will indeed cut much better, regardless of the grit used. I prefer 1k/3k with a strop on chromium oxide for my Japanese knives, but 1k would be great for CroMoVa knives.

 

[eKretz]

I like about 25° included for my kitchen knives. Also if you have a belt sander, thin them out behind the bevels. That has made the biggest difference of anything I've ever done to a kitchen knife. I like mine about .015" behind the bevel.

 

[alpster]

I like about 25° included for my kitchen knives. Also if you have a belt sander, thin them out behind the bevels. That has made the biggest difference of anything I've ever done to a kitchen knife. I like mine about .015" behind the bevel.

Yep, I find 25 degrees to be a preferred bevel angle also. Another advantage to the belt grinder attachment is you can adjust the angle quickly and easily. Set here at about 22 1/2 for a filet knife.

 

[Slash McCoy]

Yep, I find 25 degrees to be a preferred bevel angle also. Another advantage to the belt grinder attachment is you can adjust the angle quickly and easily. Set here at about 22 1/2 for a filet knife.

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Say, that's a cute lil rig. It would be fun to try grinding out a razor with that. What grit belts are available?

 

[buca3152]

Say, that's a cute lil rig. It would be fun to try grinding out a razor with that. What grit belts are available?

Check out YouTube for paper wheels or mdf wheels. You can charge them yourself i think. And lot.of.guys already have a buffer or grinding wheel. I've even seen some guys making them themselves. Sounds like an.inexpensive way to get in.

 

[alpster]

Say, that's a cute lil rig. It would be fun to try grinding out a razor with that. What grit belts are available?

No limit on grits. I have belts from 80 to 12000 (micromesh) and a cbn charged leather strop. I have been tempted to try it. I will have to grab a 66 and give it a go.

 

[Chaloney]

I use a set of the “paper wheels” on a bench grinder. They work well and are fairly quick to learn. The edges don’t seem to last super long though (wustof and henkles kitchen knives and a couple kershaw pocket knives). I have a 1x30, so I may go ahead and get a leather belt for it

 

[buca3152]

I use a set of the “paper wheels” on a bench grinder. They work well and are fairly quick to learn. The edges don’t seem to last super long though (wustof and henkles kitchen knives and a couple kershaw pocket knives). I have a 1x30, so I may go ahead and get a leather belt for it

My experience with the leather belt is they warp and wobble .I recently bought some linen belts that don't. Just FYI. You can charge the linen like the leather. I don't find that the linen edges are worse or better than leather. I use mine in an outdoor tool shed. No climate control. May have something to do with it.

 

[Chaloney]

My experience with the leather belt is they warp and wobble .I recently bought some linen belts that don't. Just FYI. You can charge the linen like the leather. I don't find that the linen edges are worse or better than leather. I use mine in an outdoor tool shed. No climate control. May have something to do with it.

I saw your update and will keep that in mind. Haven’t pulled the trigger yet so I may look for the linen belts before I do. Thanks

 

[alpster]

Another advantage to the Ken Onion is the belt is variable speed and you can slow it to a crawl. Does an amazing job of stropping on leather.

 

[buca3152]

Another advantage to the Ken Onion is the belt is variable speed and you can slow it to a crawl. Does an amazing job of stropping on leather.

I used to use a router speed control for the 1 x 30 sander. It worked rather well. But at full speed I haven't seen it to be an issue. I think the motor would probably go bad though under extended use as it's.not made to be variable. But again it's usually only on for ae very short time . My onion worksharp hasn't been used in a long while. I'm going to dust it off and play a little. I didn't get the attachment though. I did order a paper wheel just to see. Them YouTubers have a tendency to enable new purchases(not unlike the forums). Lol

 

[steveclarkus]

Yep, I find 25 degrees to be a preferred bevel angle also. Another advantage to the belt grinder attachment is you can adjust the angle quickly and easily. Set here at about 22 1/2 for a filet knife.
I love my Ken Onion.
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