I've seen a few videos where people are touching up their straights and in a lot of em, they run the blades edge across a piece of glass or the edge of their stone. Why. Seems like a wasted step. If you're wanting to refine the edge a little better, put it to the 8k and 12k for a few strokes instead of making the edge totally useless and having to do more work to clean it up. Thoughts?
Kill the edge?
- Thread starter ZeroMinusOne
- Start date
Most of them are doing it symbolically I think...they want to do a video on it so they just to prove the edge is dead, they kill it.
A lot of times, in fact most, it's to demonstrate a hone's ability to bring back an edge.
Never understood it myself, why would anyone.
Steve56
Ask me about shaving naked!
It’s a curious thing to do for sure. If you have a truly shave ready edge, kill the edge on glass super lightly, you can regenerate the edge pretty easily. Sure a dulled edge won’t cut you, but if you have a 100% edge ever so slightly dulled it‘s super easy to bring back. Best I can figure is that doing this is just advertising.
There’s no honing need to glass an edge, you can hone anything and everything that’s detrimental off with good honing technique.
People glass an edge to remove ‘fin’ or ‘unstable steel’, but if you hone properly you’ll never have those problems to begin with.
There’s no honing need to glass an edge, you can hone anything and everything that’s detrimental off with good honing technique.
People glass an edge to remove ‘fin’ or ‘unstable steel’, but if you hone properly you’ll never have those problems to begin with.
Just realize there are a lot of internet myths and lore behind straights, honing and stropping that have no real world application or history. Also a lot of honing “practices” were adapted from knowledge on knife forums. When you are looking for an explanation, checking knife forums for that behavior can usually find your answer.
I always wonder why people “reset” their bevels on razors known to shave multiple times, barring a major chip or damage. The list of “WHAT????” on SR honing posts are legion.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I always wonder why people “reset” their bevels on razors known to shave multiple times, barring a major chip or damage. The list of “WHAT????” on SR honing posts are legion.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Can't speak for others, but....
If I felt that sharpness was lacking in an otherwise 'honed' razor, even if it 'shaved', I'd reset the bevel. Haven't needed to do that in a long long time though. I'll also reset a bevel on a razor that I didn't hone originally, even if it is 'shave ready'. If my edge is starting to fall off, I'll usually reset the bevel to remove any curvature incurred from use, stropping, etc.
The killing the edge on glass thing is a parlor trick first made popular by the 'Coticule Crew' a long while back. The idea was that destroying the edge ensured the creation of an uncompromised shaving edge as opposed to just putting a band-aid on a marginally acceptable edge.
Thing is, drawing a blade over glass can often be corrected by stropping. So it wasn't the big badarse technique people made it out to be and it didn't/doesn't really prove much of anything - not to me anyway. I filed it under good intentions followed by bad executions.
Some guys liked it because it was dramatic and flamboyant - "First, I killed the edge on glass, and then I....".
I've done a good bit of comparative stone testing and, sometimes, to make sure I was starting from 'zero' with each new progression I would pull the edge through the corner of my bevel setter. Doing that was an irrefutable proof of the start point, and one less possible variable to wonder about. It's not something I subscribe to doing 'just because' though.
If I felt that sharpness was lacking in an otherwise 'honed' razor, even if it 'shaved', I'd reset the bevel. Haven't needed to do that in a long long time though. I'll also reset a bevel on a razor that I didn't hone originally, even if it is 'shave ready'. If my edge is starting to fall off, I'll usually reset the bevel to remove any curvature incurred from use, stropping, etc.
The killing the edge on glass thing is a parlor trick first made popular by the 'Coticule Crew' a long while back. The idea was that destroying the edge ensured the creation of an uncompromised shaving edge as opposed to just putting a band-aid on a marginally acceptable edge.
Thing is, drawing a blade over glass can often be corrected by stropping. So it wasn't the big badarse technique people made it out to be and it didn't/doesn't really prove much of anything - not to me anyway. I filed it under good intentions followed by bad executions.
Some guys liked it because it was dramatic and flamboyant - "First, I killed the edge on glass, and then I....".
I've done a good bit of comparative stone testing and, sometimes, to make sure I was starting from 'zero' with each new progression I would pull the edge through the corner of my bevel setter. Doing that was an irrefutable proof of the start point, and one less possible variable to wonder about. It's not something I subscribe to doing 'just because' though.
It has never made any sense to me, and may lead to unecessary additional honing and wear on the razor.
Personally I employ this technique. I breadknife my edge on a 20K stone and rehone up until finished on an 8K.
For me the edge feels a lot smoother than if I didn't breadknife. Everything I've read or been taught says it shouldn't matter. In the end it just feels better to me so I do it.
Many roads to Rome, enjoy the one you're on.
Chris
For me the edge feels a lot smoother than if I didn't breadknife. Everything I've read or been taught says it shouldn't matter. In the end it just feels better to me so I do it.
Many roads to Rome, enjoy the one you're on.
Chris
Out of curiosity, around six years ago, I killed an edge by running it across the lip of a wine glass 3 times. Then I spent around 30-45 minutes on a strop to bring it back to rudimentary shave-readiness. From this, I concluded that killing an edge was nothing so much as deforming it. Never felt the need to kill an edge like that again.
Slash McCoy
I freehand dog rockets
I have never glassed an edge and I have not breadknifed an edge in quite a good many years. IMHO, "killing" or "glassing" an edge serves no good purpose whatsoever. If you wanna do it, do it. If you don't, then you are in good company.
What I think it's capable of doing is removing micro chips. Example: heavy diamond plate work to set the Apex. Dulling on glass would collapse the edge slightly. Not necessary though as you can use the heavy plates and stop short of the edge. Or continue honing on your medium of choice until you have clean steel. I've done it many times. I've accomplished the same many times without doing it though. So I don't find it necessary.
I have never done that on a razor that already had an edge, however I’ve breadknifed some that had severe damage that required taking a lot of metal out. I did notice indeed that the resulting edge was spectacular. My theory was that the process uncovered some fresh metal and somehow, untouched metal took a better edge .
Chan Eil Whiskers
Fumbling about.
Keith, #3 is something I'd not thought of doing, but it makes perfect sense to me and is something I should consider doing at least sometimes. However, I'm not sure exactly what you mean. Is there a place for just refreshing an edge on a finishing stone (an edge you know was properly set but has become somewhat less sharp through use, particularly an edge which has no visible curvature when observed with magnification, say a 10X loupe)?
Same with #1. At least sometimes. I can certainly see what you're talking about.
#2 puzzles me. I'm not entirely sure why you do this. Yes, I know many, perhaps most so called "shave ready" razors aren't really, but some are.
I'm not being critical of anything you're saying here. Quite the contrary. I am trying to understand your thinking and learn something.
If I understand where you're coming from with these three comments they're all based (maybe) on the observation that a very straight edge (not wavy at all) as well as a great bevel are important. I've noticed that most of my best edges began with a very straight, straight looking edge.
Thanks and happy shaves,
Jim
Slash McCoy
I freehand dog rockets
With few exceptions, a new-to-me razor will sooner or later have its bevel reset here, too. Out of courtesy, and more so out of curiousity, I nearly always try to shave with an incoming razor billed as shave ready. If it is not quite the way I like it, and it usually isn't, then I hit the finisher and the balsa progression. But to make the edge truly mine and erase all doubt in it, I know that I need to set the bevel. Sometimes this is only a few token swipes on a 1k rock or a 15u or 12u film. Sometimes it is a full bore burr method bevel set. Usually it is somewhere in between. I don't think this is unusual at all. Do you really need to? No, usually not, if it shaved when you got it. Could you? Of course. May you? Your razor! Should you? Your call.
I thought a few years back someone posted some microscope pics of breadknifed vs not breadknifed, and then a “touch up” honing and there was a pronounced difference in how even the teeth on the final apex appeared pre-stropping.
Also this is a very old practice, as most of my vintage hones were nearly breadknifed to pieces when I found them.
If I had to guess, I’d say in ye olde days it would have had two likely benefits.
1: hones weren’t flat like today, so breadknifing an edge before re-honing gives you the clearest indication you’ve successfully touched up every bit of edge.
2: All Carbon steel tool users struggled with rust and oxidation/micropitting before air conditioning. Breadknifing would be an easy way to strip off most/all the micropitted apex and ensure you’re honing into “fresh” steel. There were similar practices in hand tool woodworking.
Additionally Grampa probably said “this is how you hone a razor” and his edges were a lifetime of experience better that yours, so why would you question him? There weren’t any internet schmucks to preach a better method, and there weren’t really “stone progressions” so saying “I’ll just drop to a bevel setter instead” wasn’t the easy option it is now.
Also this is a very old practice, as most of my vintage hones were nearly breadknifed to pieces when I found them.
If I had to guess, I’d say in ye olde days it would have had two likely benefits.
1: hones weren’t flat like today, so breadknifing an edge before re-honing gives you the clearest indication you’ve successfully touched up every bit of edge.
2: All Carbon steel tool users struggled with rust and oxidation/micropitting before air conditioning. Breadknifing would be an easy way to strip off most/all the micropitted apex and ensure you’re honing into “fresh” steel. There were similar practices in hand tool woodworking.
Additionally Grampa probably said “this is how you hone a razor” and his edges were a lifetime of experience better that yours, so why would you question him? There weren’t any internet schmucks to preach a better method, and there weren’t really “stone progressions” so saying “I’ll just drop to a bevel setter instead” wasn’t the easy option it is now.
Chan Eil Whiskers
Fumbling about.
I’d also add that I’ve gone to at least 6 estate sales that had evidence of being a barber, or at least containing a stash of barber supplies.
Out of 6 literally 100% had at least one old Coticule that had wear on the BBW side from bread knifing. I think of that whole ordeal I found maybe 1 or 2 Coticules where the BBW had evidence of being used for actual honing.
So filling on glass may be a knew strange version of dulling an edge, but the practice of taking a “jointing pass” or bread knifing on a stone is both old and pervasive IME.
Out of 6 literally 100% had at least one old Coticule that had wear on the BBW side from bread knifing. I think of that whole ordeal I found maybe 1 or 2 Coticules where the BBW had evidence of being used for actual honing.
So filling on glass may be a knew strange version of dulling an edge, but the practice of taking a “jointing pass” or bread knifing on a stone is both old and pervasive IME.
Similar threads
